Posted on Feb 19, 2015
Lying to Ourselves: Dishonesty in the Army Profession
21K
58
56
9
9
0
Once on the page click view the executive summary. It's a two page read but very interesting. I am sure it is relevant to all services.
There are many posts about leadership here on RP. Most are about leadership traits like empathy and resilience. What about candor? Candor is mentioned only about three times in ADRP 6-22 Army Leadership. It is tucked up under the Army Value Personal Courage.
Are you a candid leader? Do you speak up? Are you frank, honest and sincere?
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=1250
There are many posts about leadership here on RP. Most are about leadership traits like empathy and resilience. What about candor? Candor is mentioned only about three times in ADRP 6-22 Army Leadership. It is tucked up under the Army Value Personal Courage.
Are you a candid leader? Do you speak up? Are you frank, honest and sincere?
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=1250
Leadership
Honesty
Integrity
Doctrine
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 21
6
6
0
I question the validity of this "study". First "scores of officers" from O-3 to O-6 were interviewed...which means two things...the study doesn't apply to enlisted, and the numbers (say 60 to 80, because if it were over 100, they would've claimed that) are insufficient within the population to draw statistically significant results (the headline in the Washington Post article calls out everyone in the military). http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/02/18/lying-in-the-military-is-common-army-war-college-study-says/?tid=pm_world_pop
Next, some of their examples exposed the ethical dilemma for what it is, and the officers might have been making the right ethical choice by lying. If I've got guys in combat who are being told to storyboard every enemy contact, then it depends on the situation whether I force them to storyboard or I report no contact. If the storyboard doesn't go anywhere which would improve our capability or save US lives, and the time it takes for them to storyboard means they get less prep time or rack time, and they are exhausted, then I'm not forcing storyboards unless that particular enemy contact can teach us something. My point is that's why the O's get the big bucks: Make the tough ethical decisions...decide what's in the best interest of the US and your troops. If keeping your troops effective and alive involves less-than-stellar admin work, fine.
Next, some of their examples exposed the ethical dilemma for what it is, and the officers might have been making the right ethical choice by lying. If I've got guys in combat who are being told to storyboard every enemy contact, then it depends on the situation whether I force them to storyboard or I report no contact. If the storyboard doesn't go anywhere which would improve our capability or save US lives, and the time it takes for them to storyboard means they get less prep time or rack time, and they are exhausted, then I'm not forcing storyboards unless that particular enemy contact can teach us something. My point is that's why the O's get the big bucks: Make the tough ethical decisions...decide what's in the best interest of the US and your troops. If keeping your troops effective and alive involves less-than-stellar admin work, fine.
Lying in the military is common, Army War College study says
Two professors found that untruthfulness is 'surprisingly common in the U.S. military even though members of the profession are loath to admit it.'
(6)
(0)
COL Dan Fuhr
You are spot on about leaders being forced into the least bad option when bureaucratic requirements subordinate truly important training / operations. We may disagree on the validity of the study and whether ethical fading is real, but I think we agree that the growth of requirements here and there are having a pernicious effect on the organization. Probing the subject and debating it can only be healthy.
(1)
(0)
LTC Barry Hull
Col Joseph Lenertz. You actually make my point and the point of the study. First, I understand you are AF. Not Army. I am sure the organizations operate with some differences. Maybe this is not such an issue in the AF. I can tell you it is in the Army. Most of the examples presented I witnessed to some degree first hand. I lived it. So the problem is real. I don't need statistics to tell me that. Not sure if you are suggesting this or not but it seems your approach would be to start a process, gathering statistics and information...burdening those at the lower level some more..exacerbating the problem. My question is, exactly when did we start not trusting our subordinates? If we are the army we say we are, can't we just ask for an assessment. Must we verify everything with massive amounts of statistical data, neatly and tirelessly presented on Powerpoint slides?
(0)
(0)
MAJ (Join to see)
Col Joseph Lenertz Sir,
I don't think that the authors can be faulted, nor the study, because teh WaPo decided to sensationalize with a click-bait headline.
The validity of the article has been clarified well by COL Dan Fuhr.
I don't think the authors are claiming anything other than a seeming disconnect between what we say we are and what we are. An honest discussion on this is, I think, a per se good. I think that the military is much more open about these issues than others.
I don't think that the authors can be faulted, nor the study, because teh WaPo decided to sensationalize with a click-bait headline.
The validity of the article has been clarified well by COL Dan Fuhr.
I don't think the authors are claiming anything other than a seeming disconnect between what we say we are and what we are. An honest discussion on this is, I think, a per se good. I think that the military is much more open about these issues than others.
(1)
(0)
Sgt Spencer Sikder
Here we go again with "statistical" sampling. The DOJ recent report on Ferguson indicated 67% populous of blacks with 93% of the arrest. This statistical sampling doesn't go deep enough to reveal the critical details to understand the problem. What were the basis at the time of the arrest? What did the Officer's perceive the violations were to make the arrest.......yada, yada, yada. This War College report seems to gloss over specific details enough to get by for publication. How many times in the news lately do we see federal high ranking officials who lack "candor?" They lie too. So what is the real problem here? Is it the political pressure placed on our elected officials (so they can get reelected) to do something, anything regardless if it make sense? That leads people, military and civilian alike to put their own interpretation into the issue so as to respond. We have a court system to referee between the truth and the lies. And ironically, both win from time to time.
(0)
(0)
This is awesome. I have seen this and wondered about it but nothing to level of this. I have now booked marked this site. I have a new goal now. I want to be published for a study now. I like the Strategic Issues List. That is a great way to focus on where the Army is going and to be a part of it by reading studies on where the Army wants to go. Thanks. I feel like I just struck a gold chest of Army knowledge and insight.
(5)
(0)
3
3
0
I think candor is being replaced often in the ranks of NCOs for lip service. When I think of what an NCO needs to be I often think back to good old Gunny Hightower. Not the drinking and fighting but the way he deals with brass. If we can't give no-shit assessments to seniors, peers, and subordinates then what the hell is the point.
(3)
(0)
CSM (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see)
I disagree with you just a little. I think that a lot of NCOs open their mouth without thinking first. They fail to identify the issue, discuss the issue, and recommend a solution or different course of action. They just open their mouths and say "that's stupid" or something to that effect. That automatically gets dismissed as whining, even if the NCO is right he/she has failed to explain why "it's stupid".
I am a pretty candid guy, I call it how I see it but, I am always prepared to deliver it properly. Candor is extremely important, especially for NCOs because we have the experience. Chances are we have done "that" before and we know it does or does not work. When we advise our officer counterparts they are counting on that candid advice from us, we need to ensure that we give them that.
I disagree with you just a little. I think that a lot of NCOs open their mouth without thinking first. They fail to identify the issue, discuss the issue, and recommend a solution or different course of action. They just open their mouths and say "that's stupid" or something to that effect. That automatically gets dismissed as whining, even if the NCO is right he/she has failed to explain why "it's stupid".
I am a pretty candid guy, I call it how I see it but, I am always prepared to deliver it properly. Candor is extremely important, especially for NCOs because we have the experience. Chances are we have done "that" before and we know it does or does not work. When we advise our officer counterparts they are counting on that candid advice from us, we need to ensure that we give them that.
(2)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
Couldn't agree more CSM. I'm a firm believer that if there is an issue, have a solution in mind. I've grown just as tired of whining as I am tired of those that can't take the candid advice of others.
(1)
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
CSM (Join to see) you reminded me of many Marine of the Quarter boards I've sat through. One of the most popular questions that is asked is "What is the most important Leadership Trait?"
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usmc/leadership_traits.htm
The default answer is Integrity, because without integrity you have nothing. Rah rah.... I always threw a curve-ball when I was involved and asked "What is the second most important Leadership Trait?" At least force the Marine to think for half a second.
Personally, I always said Tact. If you don't know how to convey the Knowledge you possess you have, it's worthless. As you said, an NCO that says "that's stupid," without immediately being able to explain why, is worthless to a commander or his staff.
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usmc/leadership_traits.htm
The default answer is Integrity, because without integrity you have nothing. Rah rah.... I always threw a curve-ball when I was involved and asked "What is the second most important Leadership Trait?" At least force the Marine to think for half a second.
Personally, I always said Tact. If you don't know how to convey the Knowledge you possess you have, it's worthless. As you said, an NCO that says "that's stupid," without immediately being able to explain why, is worthless to a commander or his staff.
(0)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google