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Today, I may make some people mad. But what I want to address is vitally important.
I have been a drill instructor in a prison boot camp (an adult penitentiary down South) for over six years now. We train and rehabilitate non-violent offenders using a 105-day military style boot camp. Before that, I served for 21 years in the regular Army and worked a gig for Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) anti-terrorism training organization for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
During my military career, I served two tours in South Korea (one of which was retro-actively considered a combat tour because of the unanticipated battle on 23 November 1984), one tour in Germany, two Middle East combat tours, and a total of five and half years as a paratrooper and jumpmaster. I say all this not to spout out my resume, but so that I can assure you that I am absolutely qualified to make the statements I am about to make.
In the last six and a half years since I took on this job, I have been studying to become a drill instructor. Where did I go for my research? The Marine Corps.
I have always been fascinated by the Marines. In fact, I have served alongside them on several occasions. I began reading articles, watching hours and hours of video, and speaking with many Marines (drill instructors and non-drill instructors alike).
Over time, I have become a bit of a self-proclaimed, self-educated expert on Marine training: what they do, how they do it, why they do it, when they do it, etc. In the process of studying their training, I have come to several conclusions. I have also come to several conclusions about the Army, some not so good – some are downright scary.
Here are the things I have learned through my extensive research:
1. The Army runs a softer, “human dignity based” reception and receiving when the recruits arrive. The reception is so weak that it sets a very bad tone for the remainder of not just their training, but for their whole career in the Army. Recruits show up to a firm welcome by the drill sergeants and staff, but it’s not the controlled mayhem of a Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD). In fact, it seems to comfort and reassure soldiers as if to say “calm down and relax, it’s going to be all right.” Now that is all right if that is a message from your mother, but it’s not okay when we are trying to build the next generations of Spartans.
Marine receiving, on the other hand, is a “shock theater” from the minute they get off the bus through their graduation. The mayhem starts when their feet hit the “deck” and it never ever lets up. The discipline and stress is through the roof! The Army reception staff occasionally get perplexed as if to say “silly Private, get over here...shucks, what are you doing?”
In an MCRD, the recruit would be screamed at: ”GET OVER HERE! TOO SLOW, GO BACK! GET OVER HERE! STOP EYEBALLING ME! GET YOUR HEELS TOGETHER! Hey there was something you were supposed to say when told to do something, WHAT WAS IT? RESPOND!…AYE AYE SIR! RESPOND!”
See the difference? Here’s what I always say: weak pick up, weak recruits, strong pick up, strong recruits. That means if you “go in punching,” so to speak, the recruits know you mean business, you are not playing, and you are tougher than they are. You want them to be nearly peeing their pants from fear and stress.
The Army feels we need to treat people with dignity and respect and that people will shut down if screamed at too much. If that were true, the Marines have been doing it wrong since about 1952. That’s around the time that the Smokey bear hat and the structured chaos of boot camp kicked into gear. Don’t get me wrong: the Marines always wrote the book on discipline, but during the 1950’s the MCRDs really stepped up their game.
2. The tone the Army sets in basic training is wrong. The Army trains; the Marines indoctrinate. Do you see the difference? The Marines initiate the recruit into a culture, the Army trains them in tasks. Sure, the Army has core values that are really good. The values make sense and they are motivating, but the Marines ingrain it deeper into a youngster’s soul.
While the Army does change the person’s life, it does not instill the intrinsic values in the same way that the Marines do. Unless you are in an elite Army unit like Infantry, Airborne, Rangers, Special Forces, or Delta, you just don’t have the warrior ethos that the Army claims it builds. If you are a motivated gung-ho individual and you are not in an elite unit, the Army (or at least fellow soldiers) treat you like an oddball. How do I know this? I have spent a total of about 30 years around it, and I have been in Airborne, Infantry, and attached to Special Ops units, as well as regular units. In the Marines, gung-ho motivation is business as usual. You stand out if you aren’t highly motivated.
3. The Marines base their training on indoctrinating the individual into the core values of the Marines. Their training relies heavily on close order drill. They believe that drill instills a sense of teamwork and attention to detail that no other activity can. Drill teaches an individual that there are immediate consequences for an individual’s actions on their group. In other words, when one guy messes up a movement, it doesn’t go unnoticed. That soldier makes his squad look bad, that squad affects the platoon, and so on. Have you ever seen one guy in a formation either doing something late or doing the wrong movement? It sticks out like dog balls!
Now take this concept - that my actions affect the group as a whole - and apply it to war. If I move and am seen by the enemy, I may not just get myself killed, but my whole squad, platoon, company, etc. When you train with that kind of attention to detail, you are disciplined.
The Army conducts impeccable training in close order drill. In fact, the largest source of failure for students at the drill sergeant school is testing of the drill modules. So why does the Army not march as well as the Marines and why is marching not as high a priority in the Army?
4. The Army introduces combat skills earlier than the Marines do. The Army trains more combat tasks in its basic training that the Marines. Now while this may seem like a good idea, it’s really not. Teaching combat tasks before a person is fully indoctrinated in the love of corps and country is a very bad idea. It's like letting a kid who just learned how to drive enter a NASCAR race. The kid may have great skills, coordination, and reflexes, but the reality is that they have only been driving less than a year.
The Marines realize that indoctrination in the love of God, Country, and Corps has priority over learning “nuts and bolts” training. In fact, if a person is properly indoctrinated, they can be taught the other skills too, ultimately mastering them with more zeal than a person who had not been indoctrinated.
Keeping this in mind, the Marines focus on just a few things in boot camp but they drive those few things home. Drill, core values, marksmanship, fighting spirit, physical fitness, and teamwork are really all you learn in Marine Boot Camp. If a recruit masters these, the rest is strictly academic. They learn the more advanced combat skills in a course called Marine Corps Combat Training (MCT).
The Army on the other hand doesn’t get as in-depth with marksmanship, although they do get proficient at shooting, but then focus on assaulting objectives, fire and maneuver, and other combat tasks Marines don’t see until much later. The Army has removed bayonet fighting from basic training based on the rationale that you are not issued a bayonet downrange (slang term for deployed combat area) and no one uses bayonets in combat anymore.
The Marines approach this concept differently. The Marines believe that bayonet drills and bayonet sparring (pugil stick fighting) instill a killer instinct that can be obtained no other way. The Marines then integrate their bayonet fighting into their own indigenous martial art called MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). This fighting system employs the concept of “one mind, any weapon.” A motivated Marine can pick up a shovel and kill the bad guys like Sampson swinging a donkey’s jawbone. Why? Because he is indoctrinated in the art and mentality of a warrior. The Army trains warfare - make no mistake - but it takes the front seat over indoctrination.
5. Everything in Marine Boot Camp is done with speed, intensity, and volume. In Army basic you are required to move very fast, but the tone is different. The Marines “count down” every task in boot camp. That means they say “go” or “ready move” and then you have an allotted amount of time to accomplish the task. If you don’t finish in time, you do it again, and again, and again. I saw more count downs in Airborne School than Army basic training.
I think the reason we don’t do this in the Army as much as the Marines do is because of time constraints. We have much bigger platoons and companies in Army basic training and fewer drill sergeants (or DI if you prefer) than the Marines do. You have somewhere to be and you have more skills to learn and there isn’t enough time to keep putting pants on in less than 30 seconds. But look at it this way: the Marines take a longer period of time (13 weeks in the Marines versus the Army’s 9-10 weeks) to train fewer skills and indoctrinate the mind, body, and soul of the recruit.
This might also explain why we do not spend as much time on drill in Army Basic Training. There are lots of skills to be taught and very little time to do so. Every Army unit I have ever served with has been weak in drill. Sure, we can march from point A to point B, but anything beyond that and we need to rehearse. Why? Because in the Army we do not emphasize drill like we ought to. Drill needs to be on the training schedule like PT or any other task. But we do it in basic training and then we let it go.
6. The Marines use a “rebirth system,” so to speak. Marines are not called Marines verbally or in any other way until they have “earned the title.” The Army calls their recruits “soldiers” from day one.
The Marines understand that you are not a full-fledged Marine until you have earned the insignia of the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor (the EGA as Marines call it). This is not done until the very last week in which recruits participate in an event called The Crucible. This is a 56 hour “gut check.” Recruits undergo a hell week, a series of combat team tasks over that 56 hour period on very little food and sleep.
These tasks are not complex. We are not talking about a huge military strategy here. We are talking about moving ammo cans over an obstacle course, evacuating a casualty under fire through the sucking mud, and getting a squad over a distance with obstacles and difficult terrain.
The crucible awards a “badge” or “award”… the EGA. There is a “becoming” associated with graduating Marine Boot Camp. It’s like a caterpillar emerging from a cocoon as a butterfly or in this case, emerging as an elite warrior. This attitude follows the Marine for the rest of his or her life. It is a significant and emotional event that is never ever forgotten. In order to get that similar effect in the Army, you would have to go to Airborne or even Ranger school.
We must find a way to raise the bar in the Army. We must find a way to make the Army an elite concept. It must become more than a catchy slogan “Army Strong” and a way to make money for college. We must return to the Spartan roots that made us great. Because right now? We are not great.
I have been a drill instructor in a prison boot camp (an adult penitentiary down South) for over six years now. We train and rehabilitate non-violent offenders using a 105-day military style boot camp. Before that, I served for 21 years in the regular Army and worked a gig for Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) anti-terrorism training organization for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
During my military career, I served two tours in South Korea (one of which was retro-actively considered a combat tour because of the unanticipated battle on 23 November 1984), one tour in Germany, two Middle East combat tours, and a total of five and half years as a paratrooper and jumpmaster. I say all this not to spout out my resume, but so that I can assure you that I am absolutely qualified to make the statements I am about to make.
In the last six and a half years since I took on this job, I have been studying to become a drill instructor. Where did I go for my research? The Marine Corps.
I have always been fascinated by the Marines. In fact, I have served alongside them on several occasions. I began reading articles, watching hours and hours of video, and speaking with many Marines (drill instructors and non-drill instructors alike).
Over time, I have become a bit of a self-proclaimed, self-educated expert on Marine training: what they do, how they do it, why they do it, when they do it, etc. In the process of studying their training, I have come to several conclusions. I have also come to several conclusions about the Army, some not so good – some are downright scary.
Here are the things I have learned through my extensive research:
1. The Army runs a softer, “human dignity based” reception and receiving when the recruits arrive. The reception is so weak that it sets a very bad tone for the remainder of not just their training, but for their whole career in the Army. Recruits show up to a firm welcome by the drill sergeants and staff, but it’s not the controlled mayhem of a Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD). In fact, it seems to comfort and reassure soldiers as if to say “calm down and relax, it’s going to be all right.” Now that is all right if that is a message from your mother, but it’s not okay when we are trying to build the next generations of Spartans.
Marine receiving, on the other hand, is a “shock theater” from the minute they get off the bus through their graduation. The mayhem starts when their feet hit the “deck” and it never ever lets up. The discipline and stress is through the roof! The Army reception staff occasionally get perplexed as if to say “silly Private, get over here...shucks, what are you doing?”
In an MCRD, the recruit would be screamed at: ”GET OVER HERE! TOO SLOW, GO BACK! GET OVER HERE! STOP EYEBALLING ME! GET YOUR HEELS TOGETHER! Hey there was something you were supposed to say when told to do something, WHAT WAS IT? RESPOND!…AYE AYE SIR! RESPOND!”
See the difference? Here’s what I always say: weak pick up, weak recruits, strong pick up, strong recruits. That means if you “go in punching,” so to speak, the recruits know you mean business, you are not playing, and you are tougher than they are. You want them to be nearly peeing their pants from fear and stress.
The Army feels we need to treat people with dignity and respect and that people will shut down if screamed at too much. If that were true, the Marines have been doing it wrong since about 1952. That’s around the time that the Smokey bear hat and the structured chaos of boot camp kicked into gear. Don’t get me wrong: the Marines always wrote the book on discipline, but during the 1950’s the MCRDs really stepped up their game.
2. The tone the Army sets in basic training is wrong. The Army trains; the Marines indoctrinate. Do you see the difference? The Marines initiate the recruit into a culture, the Army trains them in tasks. Sure, the Army has core values that are really good. The values make sense and they are motivating, but the Marines ingrain it deeper into a youngster’s soul.
While the Army does change the person’s life, it does not instill the intrinsic values in the same way that the Marines do. Unless you are in an elite Army unit like Infantry, Airborne, Rangers, Special Forces, or Delta, you just don’t have the warrior ethos that the Army claims it builds. If you are a motivated gung-ho individual and you are not in an elite unit, the Army (or at least fellow soldiers) treat you like an oddball. How do I know this? I have spent a total of about 30 years around it, and I have been in Airborne, Infantry, and attached to Special Ops units, as well as regular units. In the Marines, gung-ho motivation is business as usual. You stand out if you aren’t highly motivated.
3. The Marines base their training on indoctrinating the individual into the core values of the Marines. Their training relies heavily on close order drill. They believe that drill instills a sense of teamwork and attention to detail that no other activity can. Drill teaches an individual that there are immediate consequences for an individual’s actions on their group. In other words, when one guy messes up a movement, it doesn’t go unnoticed. That soldier makes his squad look bad, that squad affects the platoon, and so on. Have you ever seen one guy in a formation either doing something late or doing the wrong movement? It sticks out like dog balls!
Now take this concept - that my actions affect the group as a whole - and apply it to war. If I move and am seen by the enemy, I may not just get myself killed, but my whole squad, platoon, company, etc. When you train with that kind of attention to detail, you are disciplined.
The Army conducts impeccable training in close order drill. In fact, the largest source of failure for students at the drill sergeant school is testing of the drill modules. So why does the Army not march as well as the Marines and why is marching not as high a priority in the Army?
4. The Army introduces combat skills earlier than the Marines do. The Army trains more combat tasks in its basic training that the Marines. Now while this may seem like a good idea, it’s really not. Teaching combat tasks before a person is fully indoctrinated in the love of corps and country is a very bad idea. It's like letting a kid who just learned how to drive enter a NASCAR race. The kid may have great skills, coordination, and reflexes, but the reality is that they have only been driving less than a year.
The Marines realize that indoctrination in the love of God, Country, and Corps has priority over learning “nuts and bolts” training. In fact, if a person is properly indoctrinated, they can be taught the other skills too, ultimately mastering them with more zeal than a person who had not been indoctrinated.
Keeping this in mind, the Marines focus on just a few things in boot camp but they drive those few things home. Drill, core values, marksmanship, fighting spirit, physical fitness, and teamwork are really all you learn in Marine Boot Camp. If a recruit masters these, the rest is strictly academic. They learn the more advanced combat skills in a course called Marine Corps Combat Training (MCT).
The Army on the other hand doesn’t get as in-depth with marksmanship, although they do get proficient at shooting, but then focus on assaulting objectives, fire and maneuver, and other combat tasks Marines don’t see until much later. The Army has removed bayonet fighting from basic training based on the rationale that you are not issued a bayonet downrange (slang term for deployed combat area) and no one uses bayonets in combat anymore.
The Marines approach this concept differently. The Marines believe that bayonet drills and bayonet sparring (pugil stick fighting) instill a killer instinct that can be obtained no other way. The Marines then integrate their bayonet fighting into their own indigenous martial art called MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). This fighting system employs the concept of “one mind, any weapon.” A motivated Marine can pick up a shovel and kill the bad guys like Sampson swinging a donkey’s jawbone. Why? Because he is indoctrinated in the art and mentality of a warrior. The Army trains warfare - make no mistake - but it takes the front seat over indoctrination.
5. Everything in Marine Boot Camp is done with speed, intensity, and volume. In Army basic you are required to move very fast, but the tone is different. The Marines “count down” every task in boot camp. That means they say “go” or “ready move” and then you have an allotted amount of time to accomplish the task. If you don’t finish in time, you do it again, and again, and again. I saw more count downs in Airborne School than Army basic training.
I think the reason we don’t do this in the Army as much as the Marines do is because of time constraints. We have much bigger platoons and companies in Army basic training and fewer drill sergeants (or DI if you prefer) than the Marines do. You have somewhere to be and you have more skills to learn and there isn’t enough time to keep putting pants on in less than 30 seconds. But look at it this way: the Marines take a longer period of time (13 weeks in the Marines versus the Army’s 9-10 weeks) to train fewer skills and indoctrinate the mind, body, and soul of the recruit.
This might also explain why we do not spend as much time on drill in Army Basic Training. There are lots of skills to be taught and very little time to do so. Every Army unit I have ever served with has been weak in drill. Sure, we can march from point A to point B, but anything beyond that and we need to rehearse. Why? Because in the Army we do not emphasize drill like we ought to. Drill needs to be on the training schedule like PT or any other task. But we do it in basic training and then we let it go.
6. The Marines use a “rebirth system,” so to speak. Marines are not called Marines verbally or in any other way until they have “earned the title.” The Army calls their recruits “soldiers” from day one.
The Marines understand that you are not a full-fledged Marine until you have earned the insignia of the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor (the EGA as Marines call it). This is not done until the very last week in which recruits participate in an event called The Crucible. This is a 56 hour “gut check.” Recruits undergo a hell week, a series of combat team tasks over that 56 hour period on very little food and sleep.
These tasks are not complex. We are not talking about a huge military strategy here. We are talking about moving ammo cans over an obstacle course, evacuating a casualty under fire through the sucking mud, and getting a squad over a distance with obstacles and difficult terrain.
The crucible awards a “badge” or “award”… the EGA. There is a “becoming” associated with graduating Marine Boot Camp. It’s like a caterpillar emerging from a cocoon as a butterfly or in this case, emerging as an elite warrior. This attitude follows the Marine for the rest of his or her life. It is a significant and emotional event that is never ever forgotten. In order to get that similar effect in the Army, you would have to go to Airborne or even Ranger school.
We must find a way to raise the bar in the Army. We must find a way to make the Army an elite concept. It must become more than a catchy slogan “Army Strong” and a way to make money for college. We must return to the Spartan roots that made us great. Because right now? We are not great.
Marine Corps
Culture
Standards
Command Post
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 147
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There is no doubt that the Marines, have and always had and will have the reputation of the toughest service. I do think the Army has moved in the right direction. Most of the soldiers I encounter today seem to have more of the "can-do" spirit and proud of what they do. When I see them it reinforces my pride in being a retired soldier. Just my impression. We a all a team that keep our country secure. Marines and special op troops obviously have tougher training, but the Air Force computer geek is still put of the team; (s)he may not have seen the physical rigors, but, nevertheless has the dedication to use his/her talent to serve our county and giving up better pay and probably more stable hours as a result.
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SSG Lon Watson
This is true sir. In fact the army just changed its POI. Drill and ceremony is back on the training schedule. They overhauled what soldiers learn.
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I had the privledge to attend BNCOC and attend some Marine Corps Schools on an Army base. I witnessed some of the Basic training routines of the Army and attended BNCOC with some of the Drill Sergeants.
The Marine's Boot Camp indoctrinates as well as trains recruits in basic skills. The discipline. attention to detail and sense of urgency is much higher.
What is the differences in the services? Here is my spin on it. The top 10% of all the services Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines are all on par with each other as far as professionalism and being elite in their own way. The bottom 10% are equally worthless pieces of shit.
It is that other 80% where The Corps shines. In the other services the 80% consider themselves Billy, Bobby and Sue just marking time and doing a job. In the Corps they know they are above all a Marine.
The Marine's Boot Camp indoctrinates as well as trains recruits in basic skills. The discipline. attention to detail and sense of urgency is much higher.
What is the differences in the services? Here is my spin on it. The top 10% of all the services Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines are all on par with each other as far as professionalism and being elite in their own way. The bottom 10% are equally worthless pieces of shit.
It is that other 80% where The Corps shines. In the other services the 80% consider themselves Billy, Bobby and Sue just marking time and doing a job. In the Corps they know they are above all a Marine.
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1stSgt Eugene Harless
When I was a DI I always Thrashed the recruits for the smallest things,, Shoes not aligned under their racks, pillow edges or display towell folds facing the wrong way. After a few weeks I finally let them in on the method of my madness. I had a recruit pushing because his shower shoes werent in the right order.
I asked him what his MOS was supposed to be. He said He was going to be in Avionics. I told him "Not if I can help it,,, why the fuck should the Marine Corps trust your dumb ass to work on a 30 Million Dollar Plane when you can't take care of a 50 cent shower shoe, dickhead?"
At that point the recruits started understanding the purpose behind the fuck fuck games.
I asked him what his MOS was supposed to be. He said He was going to be in Avionics. I told him "Not if I can help it,,, why the fuck should the Marine Corps trust your dumb ass to work on a 30 Million Dollar Plane when you can't take care of a 50 cent shower shoe, dickhead?"
At that point the recruits started understanding the purpose behind the fuck fuck games.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
You do get in to that mentality. And at the first time of emergency you do what you needed to do and remembered that it was that mean-ass DI's treatment that allowed you to do the best job ever and save your ass/ship/life.
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First, long of a post so long response. I don't buy any of this as an Army thing or Army wrong. This is a SSG Lon Watson thing. From your foxhole as a Chem NCO now picking up a Marine Corps book and questioning why the Army can't be like the Marines. Why would Chuck Norris wanna be like Bruce Lee? They're both awesome in their own way. I don't know what kind of Army basic training you went to in the 80s or you're referring to but my basic training in 91 with C 1-26 INF at Dix was hell and we didn't become Soldiers until graduation. And we damn sure were tough, proud and disciplined. Additionally as an Ordnance Soldier all our professional developmental schools were extremely challenging academically, physically, and in uniform and barracks standards. AIT, BNCOC and ANCOC all had barracks SOPs that were strictly enforced. Even after I went Warrant the Ordance Corps expectations continued to grow. Just being Airborne and even a Jumpmaster doesn't qualify you to make these comments. What kind of unit you're in and what's your mission there paints a better picture of your experience. I know many units in BRAGG especially in the 82nd ABN that are at a very minimum just as tough or tougher than any Marine unit out there. Yes the Army doesn't do a very good job now at indoctrinating (brainwashing) recruits but that's why it's important to have strong first line NCOs and leaders at permanent party units so they can build on what was started in basic. We are a huge organization with immense versatility and lots of moving parts. And we're the first ones to get cut or surged. I wish every unit in the Army was more like the 82nd ABN, 101st ABN, 4th ID, and 10th Mtn and that all new Soldiers would start there so they can "be all they can be" and be Army strong!
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SSG Lon Watson
If you read my comments, I excluded Airborne, Infantry, and the like from what I said. Also I wasn't talking about or insulting your experience in 1991. I was talking about NOW. Truthfully the 1990s were the golden age of basic training for the Army and you should be proud (and are) to be a part of it. My basic in the 1980s was tough for me, but anything would have been tough for me then. But the truth be told my basic was a bit lame compared to the 1990s. It was 1982 and we had a lot of vietnam era NCOs some good, some not good. As I observed in the 90s the quality of soldier was raising. I just think right now the warrior spirit is lacking.
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Wait until you read my women in combat arms and SOF article! It will be as thought provoking as this one! I'll probably get more hate mail than I already have.
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SSG Lon Watson
Sgt Richard Buckner - so you felt after I spoke up for the Marine Corps that this was fantasy fiction?
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Very in-depth and very insightful think-piece on the warrior ethos, Staff Sgt. A lot of good nuggets to chew on. But at the risk of oversimplifying the matter, consider this: Marines are essentially the shock troops of the U.S. military arsenal. The Army, which used to hold its own in that company, has become not so much the knife edge of the blade that swings, so to speak, as they are the rest of the sword that comes thereafter. The former is a fighting force, the latter is now an occupation force, although I would argue there are exceptions. Whereas Marines are, or were, by their very nature expeditionary, the Army, not least due to its size (as you mention above) is not in the business of expeditions. That translates into a much more visceral raison d'être in the case of our beloved USMC.
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The sole reason the Marine Corp can do that is because the other branches give them the luxury of not needing to train legions of support personnel. Hell, they don't even train their own medics, they have to go to the Navy for those.
What the Marines do is train infantry, and they are good at it. But you cannot equate a training program that has to turn out all kinds of personnel ranging from infantry to support personnel to one that has the pure luxury of training infantry.
What the Marines do is train infantry, and they are good at it. But you cannot equate a training program that has to turn out all kinds of personnel ranging from infantry to support personnel to one that has the pure luxury of training infantry.
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SPC Jonathan Schmidt
The point is that the Army has more support staff than the Marine Corp has staff at all. When you have to run an organization that much larger you lose the ability to be as picky. And that comes with a price.
Also, being the largest military branch by a large margin means that whenever someone in leadership decides to perform a social experiment it ends up being shoved onto the Army first. Just wait, the Corp's turn is coming shortly.
Also, being the largest military branch by a large margin means that whenever someone in leadership decides to perform a social experiment it ends up being shoved onto the Army first. Just wait, the Corp's turn is coming shortly.
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Cpl D L Parker
I don't think the size of the force matters. In basic you are teaching the fundamentals. The MOS things comes later. I hear bootcamp for Army infantry is different, if so why can't the Army train everyone the same.
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GySgt (Join to see)
Out of 186k Marines only about 25k of that is Infantry all the rest is support in some way or another. Just so people know where I numbers stand.
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Great read...great points...no additional commentary required. Just going to stand here clapping and basking in the "true" doled out here.
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While I agree with your research, the ONLY thing I disagree with is Army reception. And the ONLY reason for that is because when I came through Ft. Sill, there were a few prior-service Marines as my drill sergeants. I FRICKIN' LOVED IT! Reminded me of a slightly nicer version of the boot camp stories my grandfathers told me from Montford Point. And ALL of the drill sergeants I had in Bravo Battery, 1/40 Field Artillery were on the same page, playing the same tune, regardless of where they came from. I came through BCT in 2000. By 2002, I noticed a HUGE difference between those I came through with and those making their way into the Army. I may have been one of the last of a great era. Beyond that, amigo, well done! I really appreciate you sharing this with us!
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What's up with that trooper in front of the firing line? Is he Marine or Army?
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Either I forgot to hit the respond button (unlikely) or my post was deleted as I was probably too "harsh" in my criticism and you couldn't "hack" it. Puzzling, given your presentation. Anyway, you are out of line. The Marines are first and foremost naval infantry and their basic training is structured along those lines. Army basic training is meant to establish a minimum physical fitness and discipline in the ranks as well as to familiarize all troops with basic rifle skills.
My basic training was straight out of "Apocalypse Now" and my AIT was diametrically different. Not that it was any less demanding, but it was certainly more supportive. Having experienced the 2 philosophies, I'll opt for training over indoctrination any day.
My basic training was straight out of "Apocalypse Now" and my AIT was diametrically different. Not that it was any less demanding, but it was certainly more supportive. Having experienced the 2 philosophies, I'll opt for training over indoctrination any day.
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SSG Lon Watson
I didn’t delete it. In fact this is the first time I’ve seen it. And before you tell someone they can’t hack it you better know them first bitch
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SPC John Tacetta
SSG Lon Watson - As per the new Army policy I accept your card and offer my apology. My language was clearly too harsh for your epidermis. Better stay away from the Marines, though. Follow me, I'm the infantry!
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SSG Lon Watson
Actually it looks like you’re an unemployed specialist that couldn’t hack it in the army for very long. I did 21 years 5 1/2 of that was Fort Bragg my epidermis has been through stuff you wouldn’t believe. Have an airborne day
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SPC John Tacetta
SSG Lon Watson - One and done, my friend, that's me: loud and proud. Although you might not guess it today, I was always in the first order of battle and got to the point where I maxed out my PT score and ran 6 minute miles back to back, regularly. Pinning on a set of wings does not make you infantry, the blue cord does that and I've met plenty of clerks with wings. With 6 months in the field every year on top of guard duties, Air Assault wings on my chest and an Airborne tab on my shoulder I can't imagine you ever endured much more than I or my brothers did, NEST or not. I never saw "The Elephant", but training accidents and terrorist attacks across Europe during my time certainly took their toll. I loved the esprit de corps, but not the pay; I did my bid, figured I could do better and got out. It worked for me.
I tip my hat towards you and your 21 year commitment. Lord knows, the service needs that kind of dedication and I salute your service.
Your attack on my service, rank and employment status are apparently made without any knowledge of me or my circumstances and diminish your argument. I encourage you to look over my profile and "Google" me and learn a little bit more of me if you're so inclined. I'm always ready to stand a fellow veteran a drink so look me up any time you're passing through Long Island, NY and we can relive those days in the sun for a brief time.
I still disagree with your premise, though.
I tip my hat towards you and your 21 year commitment. Lord knows, the service needs that kind of dedication and I salute your service.
Your attack on my service, rank and employment status are apparently made without any knowledge of me or my circumstances and diminish your argument. I encourage you to look over my profile and "Google" me and learn a little bit more of me if you're so inclined. I'm always ready to stand a fellow veteran a drink so look me up any time you're passing through Long Island, NY and we can relive those days in the sun for a brief time.
I still disagree with your premise, though.
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Another difference I have noticed between the Army and Marine Corps is the issuance of "badges". It kind of reminds me of being int he Boy Scouts (yes, I know the BSA were modeled after an Army-like structure). It strikes me as odd probably because it is different to me.
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SPC John Tacetta
I don't know, maybe the Army has more, but I've seen plenty of Marines sporting badges.
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I went in when Harmony Church was still an "option". Upon my graduation, my two best friends showed up with my parents, both wearing their Class A's. John in the Coast Guard and Robert in his Marine "greens". After spending the day before graduation watching what we did, how it was done and how the drills performed, Robert said some hokey thing about how my DI's must've went to Paris Island as some sort of inter-service training thing or another. His other comment was that at least the Marines could afford decent lodging for their recruits.
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Sounds like our sisters in the Army are feeling a little insecure these days.
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As a 70 year old Marine Corps veteran, I agree wholeheartedly with this article , Marine Corps Boot Camp is a life changing experience,I remember every second of it as if it just happened, it has made a difference in my life that can't be overlooked, once a Marine always a Marine ,.Thanks <>L/Cpl Mike Bundock USMC.
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That just goes to show that after Vietnam the Army got slowly and progressively laxed and passive. They even instituted co-ed Basic Training, Before that it was BCT. Way different than BT.
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I mean I agree with most of this Sergeant. I just don't agree with part about the Army calling us soldiers from the beginning. When I got to reception, everybody I knew was called Trainee "Fill In Name Here". They only called us soldiers after the Forge, even then, one of our Drill Sergeant's did not care that we were about to graduate, he still called us Trainees. I remember stepping off the bus at my company for basic training. As soon as that happened, there was lots of yelling and I honestly had no idea what I was doing. I can agree that Army reception is a lot easier than the Marine Corps reception.
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I do not know what training unit for Army you are talking about, According to you the marines are using old out dated mode of training from the 1950's. I worked with both Navy Seals, Marine Recon and other branches of our service. An we all agree we are one team period. I had a Marine Lt for a commander, I suggest you go back and get an update copy of FM 7-10.
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I had to delete what I was originally going to say. I'll leave it at this: God help us.
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The largest amphibious invasion in history was operation Overlord Who did it genius ?????? Hint not the marines, apples to orange's I see you retired Army and non combat affiliated MOS. My question why did you not join the Marines infantry or even the army infantry, your full of it and stop putting down your my people. You should not show yourself as SSG of the US ARMY you look embarrassed of that title
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SSG Lon Watson
Cesar you completely missed the point! And infantry isn’t what makes ANYBODY an expert. I wrote this not because I hate the army, but because I love the army. The army could do a lot better than it has been. We could inject better discipline into our ranks. I served in airborne units at Ft Bragg and Spec ops units at MacDill and the motivation and discipline of the 82nd, 307th div support battalion exceeds that of a lot of infantry units. Infantry doesn’t have the market cornered on discipline. I’ve seen clerk typists in the Ranger Regt that could soldier circles around a 10th Mountain grunt. What I’m saying is we coddle soldiers. We hug a thug! Training needs to be more spartan. And as for your PHD comment you made, I spent 7 years studying what was right and wrong with both services. I watched hours and hours of video of basic training. Well I watched more video of the Marines, the army doesn’t like video of drill sergeants in action and won’t post it unless PAO approves it. The Marines don’t care, they hang it out there!
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I see you say this shit after you retired um from the Army. May I suggest you redo your PHD thesis.
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I did not get a nice reception when I checked into Fort Sill. A screaming and angry Staff Sergeant gave us socks, underwear and T-shirts at Reception before we went to real Basic in September 1988. That first day if Basic my sleeping mat unraveled during the rush to get off the bus and race with all our gear to the pad. After breaking from the herd and getting my stuff I could do nothing right the rest of the day. Four drill sergeants rode my ass ALL DAY LONG. I was so bad I went on KP with another platoon I did not know who watched me come in. But I made friends and got support which was probably unexoected. But it was a very good reprieve. Things evened out. I even became squad leader, graduated, and had a FANTASTIC posting and career in a firing platoon.
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I have no idea what goes on today, my experience is 43 years old. I know in 76, Army basic training was a joke. But we did have to do guard duty at the Rusty Nail at Fort Knox, a Marine tanker bar on post, and honestly, I never saw a lot there that overly impressed me either. But the draft had just ended, and maybe all the services at that point were struggling to fill boots, I don't know. I have always had respect for someone who made it through Paris Island, but that does not make them a demi God, just someone who could suck it up for a few months and endure the brutal experience.
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There are two main differences between the USMC and the Army. First is size. The Marines are just a corp, the Army has many corps size units. Se one is mission. The phrase "every Marine a rifleman" really does apply. That goes for women, too. Ever notice the Marine Corps has no medics? Navy corpsman are assigned to infantry units.
I did army OSUT at Ft. Benning and it was just as you describe (Charlie 7-1). The one week reception at Ft. Jackson was way more laid back. This is another difference...there are only two places for Marine Corps boot camp and the reception station is the same place. The group in my reception outfit had people going all over for basic.
I also did jump school at Benning (44th Company, Death From Above!). And it was even more indoctrinating.
With so many non-combat oriented positions, the Army has to be different in training.
I did army OSUT at Ft. Benning and it was just as you describe (Charlie 7-1). The one week reception at Ft. Jackson was way more laid back. This is another difference...there are only two places for Marine Corps boot camp and the reception station is the same place. The group in my reception outfit had people going all over for basic.
I also did jump school at Benning (44th Company, Death From Above!). And it was even more indoctrinating.
With so many non-combat oriented positions, the Army has to be different in training.
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Sometimes comparisons is not good. When ever you compare your self with someone else (especially someone you admire you will come up short). You sited all the pro and con with army training. Also mabe you should look at retention numbers of the two forces? You cant say one is better than the other until you factor in the retention, rate, promotion rate, usmj rate even suicides rate before you lable one a successful at making a fighting machine. Comparing the to is not apples to apples. Ever corp is different, but the question I have is are they effective? I am sure the aswer is yes. They reason you go army, navy are air force is because you don't want to be a marine. Best regards
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We can all sit here and pat ourselves on the back and boast about what we did/ do for any branch of the service. We even put one branch above another as long as we served in that branch we are putting over. But to sit here and say one branch is better because you read about it is just wrong. I served 26 years active duty in the Army, My father served 14 years in the Marine Corps before passing away as a result of Vietnam, I read book and tried to find out as much as I could about the Marines and my father, does that make me an expert on the Marines No. what that make me is a Marine Corp brat, who later joined the Army and became a expert in they need of me at the time
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Shoot, I'm ex-Navy. There was nothing reassuring when I arrived at "Great Mistakes". It was non-stop screaming for at least the first four weeks. What has the Army turned into?
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