Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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We should all feel an innate sense of patriotism and should have an inherent desire to serve this Nation when called upon to do so. The "draft" was exactly that, a call to serve, albeit involuntary. As evidenced by the actions of the draft dodgers, such a sense of patriotism is not innate. What stirs me to anger more than the draft dodgers' unlawful actions by evading the draft was the draft dodgers being pardoned by President James Earl Carter. Just one of the several less than stellar accomplishments attributed to him while serving as president.
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SSG Gerhard S.
SPC John Tacetta exchanging forced servitude for a jail sentence is a false choice, and a logical fallacy. Neither affords freedom.
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SSG Gerhard S.
SPC John Tacetta the question is, should a country based on individual liberty, and limited government, allow it's government unlimited power to take away the liberties without due process, of the people from which it's power is supposed to be derived?
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SPC John Tacetta
SSG Gerhard S. - If you mean "Due Process" as in through a judicial decision you need to recheck your bearings because you've definitely wandered off course. The power to levy the Militia is granted to the government explicitly in the Constitution, the foundation on which this nation is erected. The only way to change that is to amend the Constitution. You just need to wrap your head around that one: it's as obvious as the sun in the sky.
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How about one year of "national service," not necessarily in the military, as repayment for living in our "great country," without regarding it as involuntary servitude/slavery? I respect "conscientious objectors." But I have no respect for poor little rich kids whose father got some doctor to falsify a report. This has gone on since the Civil War. In the meantime real poor kids die in their place. Bribing politicians through political contributions is "legal" as defined by those politicians to keep the money rolling in. So what is "legal" may not necessarily be moral.
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Something I was raised with. My Country right or wrong ,my Country. My father was a WWII Marine Vet.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Do you really want to go out, in the name of your country, and kill people, even when you know your country is wrong? Would you help your country enforce slavery again, if it decided to put itt back into effect? Just wondering how far that saying goes? "right, or wrong"
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SPC John Tacetta
SSG Gerhard S. - It's all a matter of conscience, You can serve, claim conscientious objector status or straight out refuse. Those who choose to serve, drafted or not, have an obligation to obey all LAWFUL orders.
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PO3 Michael Kidd
I guess that statement was using too wide of a brush.I agree its a matter of conscience. There are points made in the military code of justice that addresses about straight not following a order that you know is wrong.
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I think of it in this manner after many years of looking “down” at those who at first I considered cowards—but my approach has changed ...
1. Though to some reading this post may think of me naive to say, but everyone has their reason(s) for the actions/choices made in life and I’d prefer to think the reasons in most cases were in their best interests (family, health, fears, maturity/immaturity, etc)
2. I pose this question ... for the multitude of reasons just mentioned, wouldn’t you rather “fight” alongside those eager to do so for the ideologies and passion shared for our country—versus being in a foxhole with someone scared, sour or plainly put anti-war/military—especially when they’re in that foxhole by “force”?
Semper Fi & Aloha!
1. Though to some reading this post may think of me naive to say, but everyone has their reason(s) for the actions/choices made in life and I’d prefer to think the reasons in most cases were in their best interests (family, health, fears, maturity/immaturity, etc)
2. I pose this question ... for the multitude of reasons just mentioned, wouldn’t you rather “fight” alongside those eager to do so for the ideologies and passion shared for our country—versus being in a foxhole with someone scared, sour or plainly put anti-war/military—especially when they’re in that foxhole by “force”?
Semper Fi & Aloha!
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SPC John Tacetta
Nobody in their sane mind should WANT to fight a war. The best way to win a fight is to avoid it. War is a failure, but unfortunately is only takes 1 to start a fight. I'm a big fan of "Peace through superior firepower", more formally known as the Powell doctrine or more cynically Mutually Assured Destruction.
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I have read the comments on this subject and made up my mind to respond. Many people have their own ideas about this. I look at it this way: A lot of us who served have nightmares about Nam. Those that didn't serve for whatever reason do not . To me they are very lucky. But I am proud to have served my country. To me it is a pity that they who found reasons not to serve did not think about serving their country, some how. I regret how Mohammed Ali was treated because of his religious beliefs,especially after seeing "HACKSAW RIDGE." I often wonder if Muhammad Ali was given that choise to serve as a medic before he was brought to court? We will not ever know though since the man has passed away. Well, that is my 2 cents worth. Now I am opened for comment. To all the vets, "WELCOME HOME FOLKS."
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Isn’t that a wonderful crock of crap. We should all get to pick and choose which laws we abide by and which we avoid. I don’t think so. There was a draft for WWII. Do you really think we should have not had that? There was a lot of sentiment to stay out of the war.
It might have been wonderful that you were such a devoted patriot that you enlisted. I guess I wasn’t because I had zero interest in being in the military for three years. I decided to take my chances with the draft even though I knew my odds were very high that Vietnam was in my immediate future. But I was an invincible 20 year old. Bring it on.
Personally I think every person should serve in the military. Too few do now so they have no perspective on the realities of service. They think a flag in the lapel is the ultimate sign of patriotism.
If there is a draft and you decide to dodge it by using family connections, you don’t deserve any respect as a Commander in Chief. Just shut up and do your job. Don’t pander to the other draft dodgers with flag lapel pins.
It might have been wonderful that you were such a devoted patriot that you enlisted. I guess I wasn’t because I had zero interest in being in the military for three years. I decided to take my chances with the draft even though I knew my odds were very high that Vietnam was in my immediate future. But I was an invincible 20 year old. Bring it on.
Personally I think every person should serve in the military. Too few do now so they have no perspective on the realities of service. They think a flag in the lapel is the ultimate sign of patriotism.
If there is a draft and you decide to dodge it by using family connections, you don’t deserve any respect as a Commander in Chief. Just shut up and do your job. Don’t pander to the other draft dodgers with flag lapel pins.
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SSG Gerhard S.
SPC Michael Tierney To answer your question, yes.
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson.
I thank you for reading, and for your comment. It's important to note that your comment totally ignores the stated premise of the article, that a draft is involuntary servitude at best, and at worst, slavery. One hopes that NONE would chide, or take issue with someone objecting to, or resisting enslavement. As I stated in the article, I applauded those slaves who escaped the south, and those who helped them.
Your point makes perfect sense, IF one ignores the premise put forth, and instead, one's premise is that the government is always right, and it is the people's "duty" to follow it's edicts, moral, or not.
Again, thank you for your comments, respectful regards.
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson.
I thank you for reading, and for your comment. It's important to note that your comment totally ignores the stated premise of the article, that a draft is involuntary servitude at best, and at worst, slavery. One hopes that NONE would chide, or take issue with someone objecting to, or resisting enslavement. As I stated in the article, I applauded those slaves who escaped the south, and those who helped them.
Your point makes perfect sense, IF one ignores the premise put forth, and instead, one's premise is that the government is always right, and it is the people's "duty" to follow it's edicts, moral, or not.
Again, thank you for your comments, respectful regards.
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SPC John Tacetta
SSG Gerhard S. - Gerhard, I do believe Mike responded to your premise with a definitive "NO!" His response is clear and simply puts forth that the draft is neither slavery or servitude, but a duty. Do you feel so put upon when your family or friends attempt to "enslave" you. Probably not. I'm not sure if you're trolling here or being overly pedantic with your semantics. If you want to look at it that way, well then, you just need to accept that your good 'ol Uncle Sam is constitutionally justified in placing you in servitude for 6 to 8 years. Get used to it, start a campaign to amend the Constitution or pull up stakes for a happier campground.
Anyway, you've clearly started a lively discussion and for that I thank you.
Anyway, you've clearly started a lively discussion and for that I thank you.
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SPC Michael Tierney
SSG Gerhard S.
I don’t think I said “government is always right “. But, for better or worse,!it is where the laws come from. If we don’t like the laws there are mechanisms for change. Simply ignoring them is not one of those mechanisms. Although there are probably plenty of tax cheats that would prove me wrong.
Specific to your implying that the draft is some sort of involuntary servitude, I guess you are probably right. As it turned out, I liked the Army. I liked the Infantry. Had I not been shot I might have re-enlisted and gone to Ranger school.
At no time did I feel enslaved nor was I treated differently because I was US vs RA.
I am 100% in favor of universal conscription. No one would be a slave for two years. They would simply be serving their country. They might even enjoy the experience and learn something about themselves.
I don’t think I said “government is always right “. But, for better or worse,!it is where the laws come from. If we don’t like the laws there are mechanisms for change. Simply ignoring them is not one of those mechanisms. Although there are probably plenty of tax cheats that would prove me wrong.
Specific to your implying that the draft is some sort of involuntary servitude, I guess you are probably right. As it turned out, I liked the Army. I liked the Infantry. Had I not been shot I might have re-enlisted and gone to Ranger school.
At no time did I feel enslaved nor was I treated differently because I was US vs RA.
I am 100% in favor of universal conscription. No one would be a slave for two years. They would simply be serving their country. They might even enjoy the experience and learn something about themselves.
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SSG Gerhard S. I am a Vietnam veteran who enlisted while still in High School under the delayed enlistment program. My brother was already in the service (enlisted) and my My Dad also enlisted and served in WWII. The Draft ran from 1940 (before Pearl Harbor) and ran continuously (even in peace time) until 1973. I would think that ANYBODY that has studied WWII and its magnitude would feel that we needed every person we could to serve in the military to stop the actual EVIL AXIS powers from dominating the earth. The same Nazis who murdered 7 million Jews. Also many people believe and have heard of the fantastic patriotism that was present within our nation during this period and how everybody stood up and wanted to be counted. NOT! There were 16 million Americans who served in the military during WWII and 10 million of them had to be drafted. We would all be speaking German and/or Japanese if we had only had 1/3 of the people or only 6 million Americans serve then (those that enlisted). Conscription into our military is an American duty that all of us should be willing to do out of patriotism and obligation to maintain freedom either in our own country or in the world. People who criticize our involvement in other parts of the world need to realize that WWII was never fought on our shores because we served in other parts of the world. If people believe that the draft or conscription is akin to slavery, that dooms our country's future if we were ever to see a world wide conflict similar to WWII. The draft must be thought of as a diplomatic nudge to our citizens who are hesitant to fulfill their dutiful obligations to their nation. Personally speaking in the last 30 years we probably should have had the draft during some of the times. It is unfair for us to ask our warriors to serve 2,3 and even 4 tours in a war zone. Either physically or mentally these people are paying for it now. Our country will be paying for it for generations.
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When the U.S. suspended the draft I was concerned. The military has been a mixing bowl of America. Volunteers and draftees form every sector of our population were brought together for a single purpose, those who chose to be there and those who didn't. Those who would make it a career and those who would leave when their time was up. Removing the draft meant we were now employing a mercenary military. Civilizations of the past that resorted to mercenaries to defend their countries, Athenians hired Spartans, Rome hired Germans, Britain also hired Germans and the French had their foreign legion. When their own citizens didn't value their nation important enough to play a role in its defense soon found their country in decline.
For decades the draft was only used to make up a shortfall in recruitment numbers. In peacetime the numbers were small. In times of conflict, when greater troop numbers were required the numbers of those drafted were increased. The use of deferments other than medical, C.O., only child and perhaps a few others was discriminatory, in particular the use of student deferments except in specialized programs. Generally college was not available to the poor citizens.
I have no problem with a legitimate medical deferment for a condition that would make the individual more of a liability than an asset to the warriors. Although I could see a special class of service where those who may not be in the best of health could serve honorably in CONUS, freeing up more able bodied individuals to take the field.
I do have a problem where individuals who actively seek out ways to avoid service by shopping for sympathetic doctors. If Trumps foot problems were real he would have been a liability and his deferment would be legitimate. But if they were exaggerated by a friendly doctor so that he could avoid service I will not express my feelings here. I'm especially disgusted by individuals who found ways to avoid service while their peers served and now because of their political position feel that they are more knowledgeable about how are military members are selected, trained and deployed than the professionals who have spent their lives in service.
By the way what amount of money is commensurate with risking ones life and limb, availability for duty 24/7/365 anywhere in the world?
For decades the draft was only used to make up a shortfall in recruitment numbers. In peacetime the numbers were small. In times of conflict, when greater troop numbers were required the numbers of those drafted were increased. The use of deferments other than medical, C.O., only child and perhaps a few others was discriminatory, in particular the use of student deferments except in specialized programs. Generally college was not available to the poor citizens.
I have no problem with a legitimate medical deferment for a condition that would make the individual more of a liability than an asset to the warriors. Although I could see a special class of service where those who may not be in the best of health could serve honorably in CONUS, freeing up more able bodied individuals to take the field.
I do have a problem where individuals who actively seek out ways to avoid service by shopping for sympathetic doctors. If Trumps foot problems were real he would have been a liability and his deferment would be legitimate. But if they were exaggerated by a friendly doctor so that he could avoid service I will not express my feelings here. I'm especially disgusted by individuals who found ways to avoid service while their peers served and now because of their political position feel that they are more knowledgeable about how are military members are selected, trained and deployed than the professionals who have spent their lives in service.
By the way what amount of money is commensurate with risking ones life and limb, availability for duty 24/7/365 anywhere in the world?
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Well gee, if you don't think a draft can exist with a free society then you won't have a free society for long. If we are faced with a formidable enemy and there are not enough 'volunteers', you either draft or submit. Simple as that. With freedom comes responsibility. Suck it up buttercup.
In the end, in a serious war, the army needs bodies, whether they want to be there or not. Many will end up dead/disfigured. You need look no further than the civil war, WWI, and WWII.
If you choose to surrender, that's your choice. But draft dodgers deserve lock up and/or death. Comparing it to slavery means you don't understand our system and haven't studied history.
In the end, in a serious war, the army needs bodies, whether they want to be there or not. Many will end up dead/disfigured. You need look no further than the civil war, WWI, and WWII.
If you choose to surrender, that's your choice. But draft dodgers deserve lock up and/or death. Comparing it to slavery means you don't understand our system and haven't studied history.
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PO2 Steve Wikert
This is a section of my entire comment which is above..." I would think that ANYBODY that has studied WWII and its magnitude would feel that we needed every person we could to serve in the military to stop the actual EVIL AXIS powers from dominating the earth. The same Nazis who murdered 7 million Jews. Also many people believe and have heard of the fantastic patriotism that was present within our nation during this period and how everybody stood up and wanted to be counted. NOT! There were 16 million Americans who served in the military during WWII and 10 million of them had to be drafted. We would all be speaking German and/or Japanese if we had only had 1/3 of the people or only 6 million Americans serve then (those that enlisted). Conscription into our military is an American duty that all of us should be willing to do out of patriotism and obligation to maintain freedom either in our own country or in the world. People who criticize our involvement in other parts of the world need to realize that WWII was never fought on our shores because we served in other parts of the world. If people believe that the draft or conscription is akin to slavery, that dooms our country's future if we were ever to see a world wide conflict similar to WWII."
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