Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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Water under the bridge. The draft was 40+ years ago. And "YES" I was drafted after I joined. If we still had a draft and another Viet Nam, I'd be visiting my children in Canada.
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SSG Rochard Gonzales
Going to Canada & thereby abandoning this great country who thousands of others sacrificed to make great is not the answer, but rather to ‘un-elect’ the people who place us in these positions. To me it is not ‘water under the bridge,’ not because I cannot, but because I chose not to do so to people who turned there backs on us & than in their capacity as POTUS choose to disparage us as they are incapable of grasping the full meaning of true PATRIOTISM, as to them it is but a punchline. Don’t let it be for you.
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SMSgt Bob W.
Rochard, I believe the POTUSs were voted out--Johnson didn't run in 1968 and his VP was the party nominee and loss. Carter gave amnesty to the "draft dodgers" and was voted out. PATRIOTISM [?] is only around when the country is winning a conflict. Let the US begin to lose a conflict and the public will "eat 'em alive". That's for your comments. As for me, Au Revoir and enjoy your life.
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SSG Gerhard S.
For the record, I agree with your original comment, on this, but I also feel the same way about serving with those whose hearts, and minds are not in the cause, and were forced into servitude.
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SSG Jess Peters
SSG Gerhard S. George Washington disagreed. In hi letter to the Hebrews he was very clear that service to our nation is a responsibility for all able bodied men in our nation. We live here, benefit as citizens, there can be a cost. The Hebrews were asking for an exemption on concientious grounds.
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SSG Gerhard S.
SSG Jess Peters that may be so during the revolution, but we didn't have our constitution until 1786. Though George Washington was greatly involved in the framing of our constitution along with Madison, Jay, and Hamilton, they didn't see fit to provide a universal service clause, or a pledge to service for native born Americans.
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SSG Jess Peters
SSG Gerhard S. George Washingtons letter to the Hebrews made it very clear that military service is a responsibility for all able bodied males when called to serve.
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We all live here and you don't do that without benefiting from it. I've been around the world a bit and say with all sincerity that this is the absolute best place you could possibly live, work, raise a family, etc. I love my country and my freedom, rights and privileges with all my heart. This stuff isn't free. Those who have gone before us served, suffered and sacrificed to provide it. Obviously military service did not generate the riches of this country but without military service those riches would belong not to us but to a hardier race of men. As citizens of this, the best country to ever exist, we owe a debt. I say that if you CAN serve you SHOULD serve.
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How did we get to a draft anyway? History is a funny thing. You can't really change it but, it can be ignored, repeated and used against you. Draft dodger- friend or foe? It's sorta like asking what to do when a drug dealer goes to the police to file charges on a person that just robbed him of his drugs. I was ready and rearing to enlist without a number but the draft ended before I turned 17. The draft, which was by all measures an unconstitutional forced servitude, was enacted by the Burke-Wadsworth Act, under FDR and his democrat majority in the House and Senate in September of 1940 at the behest of one Secretary of War, Henry Lewis Stimson(Now there's someone worthy of further discovery). Worse than the draft was the penalties of non compliance and of the "Conscientious Objectors"(Cassius Clay anyone?). C.O. Camps of forced labor and no pay made up mostly of Quakers. The 5-6 thousand imprisoned were mostly Jehovah's witnesses. Initially, blacks were exempted due to racist ignorance of their potential by democrats.
I mention this as part of the 'ignore and repeat' lesson. Almost 80 years later this is still a topic. All those that imposed the draft act on the citizens of the US are dead and gone but the effect of what they did is still being dealt with. That is not the principles by which this country is founded on. It shows one example of how long the agenda to enslave Americans has endured with democrats. What the American people must understand is who and what the people are that they elect to office. I'm afraid we've been lied to, betrayed and deceived so long we can't tell when the truth is being told.
My opinion? An all volunteer force with high standards, is the only way. Use positive incentives, not negative like the democrats did. If the effort is honorable, the volunteers will be there.
I mention this as part of the 'ignore and repeat' lesson. Almost 80 years later this is still a topic. All those that imposed the draft act on the citizens of the US are dead and gone but the effect of what they did is still being dealt with. That is not the principles by which this country is founded on. It shows one example of how long the agenda to enslave Americans has endured with democrats. What the American people must understand is who and what the people are that they elect to office. I'm afraid we've been lied to, betrayed and deceived so long we can't tell when the truth is being told.
My opinion? An all volunteer force with high standards, is the only way. Use positive incentives, not negative like the democrats did. If the effort is honorable, the volunteers will be there.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
Historical nit: Conscripted service (Draft) was started in 1863, by President Lincoln. It did result in more people, and might have made a difference in the Civil War. The Burke-Wadsworth Act did not do it first; with that said, I believe that there might have been a suspension of it in the Inter-War period.
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I'll chime in (and probably wish I hadn't). I've always considered myself a draft dodger. I enlisted in the Infantry to dodge the draft. Sounds crazy, but it's true. A person who was drafted in the 1960s lost all control over his life: he had to present himself at a place and time of someone else's choosing and be transported to a place that he didn't want to be and stay for as long as someone else wanted him to stay. And he had to do things that he didn't want to do - all on penalty of imprisonment if he chose to disobey. By enlisting, I avoided all of that unpleasantness: I got to choose my preferred branch of service and the date on which I would leave my place of employment; I got to make orderly arrangements for my (then) wife to leave the city in which we lived and to travel to her parents' home in Scotland. I got to dispose of my personal possessions in an orderly fashion. I enjoyed the respect of my family and friends and got to smile at my reflection in the mirror each morning instead of cursing the arrival of a new day. The decision to choose the Infantry followed a logical path: I wanted to return to my position as a civilian employee of the Air Force because I enjoyed the work and was on a training program that offered the opportunity to build a career to which I could dedicate 30 years and retire with a defined pension while having at least half of my health insurance cost paid by my employer. I had to return to my position within 48 months to resume employment. That ruled out the Air Force, if I wanted a commissioning program: that commitment would have been 52 months. The Navy would have required 58 months, including flying training at Pensacola. The Army commitment was for only 30 months. But why the Infantry, you say? Because the recruiter said I could get a guaranteed OCS class date if I chose a combat arm: Armor, Artillery or Infantry. I'm 6'3". I didn't think I'd fit in a tank, and I didn't really want to drag heavy artillery around a battlefield, so that left the Infantry. And it all came together pretty much as I had hoped it would: I raised my hand on 21 Jan 1966 and returned home on 15 Nov 1968. I served only a year in combat, and got back without too much damage done; lost a few pounds - about 25 - but they came back soon enough. The marriage that cratered wouldn't have lasted anyway: I'm conservative, she was liberal; I'm a Christian, she was agnostic; I wanted kids and she preferred the pill. Three years after we split, I met & married the daughter of a WWII vet, who had been a tank gunner and participated in the Battle of the Bulge. She's 11 years younger than I am and a devout Christian; she loves kids, is a fantastic cook and is a whole lot better looking. Our courtship was pretty brief: met in early July and married at the end of October in 1975.
As to authentic draft dodgers: I'm grateful not to be one of them. I pity their cowardice and disapproved of the pardon they received. They have to live with their decision and try to explain to their kids why they never served. I have no regrets for the decisions I made and would do it all again.
As to authentic draft dodgers: I'm grateful not to be one of them. I pity their cowardice and disapproved of the pardon they received. They have to live with their decision and try to explain to their kids why they never served. I have no regrets for the decisions I made and would do it all again.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for sharing your story! What an inspirational one it is. Thank you for your voluntary service, and for your comments.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
Lt Smith, coming on to 50 years of marriage, you have my greatest respect! (Third of a century, here.)
I actually understood your logic. I did the AF, myself, and never regretted it. I was only a dozen or so uniformed AF personnel who worked side-by-side with civilian employees of NASA, doing final assembly and acceptance of the Space Shuttle Orbiters (Discovery and Atlantis, in my case). Would not trade it for the world!
I actually understood your logic. I did the AF, myself, and never regretted it. I was only a dozen or so uniformed AF personnel who worked side-by-side with civilian employees of NASA, doing final assembly and acceptance of the Space Shuttle Orbiters (Discovery and Atlantis, in my case). Would not trade it for the world!
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Well Said! Conscripts do not always have their hearts in it and I will never criticize a " draft dodger " because they all have different reasons for doing so .
I notice that many of the same people that call trump a "dodger " said nothing about Clinton's deferments and themselves either weren't old enough to be drafted then , never served at all and even protested the draft in the 60's .
Besides , trump was ostensibly a Democrat in the days .
I notice that many of the same people that call trump a "dodger " said nothing about Clinton's deferments and themselves either weren't old enough to be drafted then , never served at all and even protested the draft in the 60's .
Besides , trump was ostensibly a Democrat in the days .
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Cpl Ray Frigerio
SPC Albert Blosser - of course , but that is because some draftees wanted to serve with the best. By that I mean if the selective service made up your mind for you , why not set yourself apart and strive for a little challenge and prestige?
My father was actually in the US Army Air Corps in WWII , but he is the reason that the USMC became a tradition in my family ; simply because he and the rest of us felt that the challenge was still there , whereas the Army in the 70's and 80's had gotten a little disorganized comparatively speaking.
My father was actually in the US Army Air Corps in WWII , but he is the reason that the USMC became a tradition in my family ; simply because he and the rest of us felt that the challenge was still there , whereas the Army in the 70's and 80's had gotten a little disorganized comparatively speaking.
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It is water over the wheel now. Many did. & certainly many who were in congress did. .
To stop that ever happening again just have no deferments. Everyone serve 4 Yrs. no matter what. even if it behind a desk or as a cook. Even if in a wheel chair.. The handicap you will find work harder
Thank you Mrs Veronica M Reimann
To stop that ever happening again just have no deferments. Everyone serve 4 Yrs. no matter what. even if it behind a desk or as a cook. Even if in a wheel chair.. The handicap you will find work harder
Thank you Mrs Veronica M Reimann
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
I wonder if there could be a Specialized Service for the physically challenged? Maybe worth some thought?
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I was RA in 67 and very proud of it. This picture of me was taken in Nam and it was about 110 degrees. For those who don’t like fighting or supporting your country I believe that if they make the choice to leave our great nation, then they should stay away forever. I don’t hate them, I just feel sorry for there lack of understanding.
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I think we should have compulsory service in this country! There are many people who make decisions for and about the military that make no sense for those serving (such as in field repair of vehicles voiding the warranty) so contractors have to do even minor repairs that those we train as mechanics should be able to do. These decisions do however line their pockets. Many Congressmen have properties in places they have no intention of living on for the sole purpose of collecting farming benefits on land they never have nor will farm. Welfare fraud. Oh right it's not welfare because they own farm land-the hypocrisy!! I think it is a stretch to compare a draft to slavery, it is in fact offensive- damn a definition! Freedom is not free and in time of need if people do not volunteer then they have to be volunteered! There is an end to military service, women do not get drafted, people are paid, have health care and housing. Slavery comparison? -you can do better! Trump inherited lots of property in New York that escalated in value. He was also given lots of seed money and started with connections to those in the know who knew his father and the Trump name. Not mad at all just need the record to be clear so people stop pushing that underlying "smart" because he is a self-made millionaire rhetoric like they did with Kylie Jenner-to justify voting for such an irresponsible person. When people show you who they are- BELIEVE them!! Do you think if he, the man who loves to bragg had anywhere near a billion dollars he would not be rubbing it in everyone's faces?? Still waiting for NYC to get and share those tax returns...
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