Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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The draft was a long time ago, as was the Vietnam War. In truth, I wouldn't have wished Vietnam on anyone. Military service isn't for everyone, but some sort of national service should be done. Even planting trees or improving our public parks, whatever it takes to improve the environment should be an alternative option.
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I joined voluntarily. The reasons are irrelevant. Others in more fortunate or favorable conditions took advantage of laws that allowed them to avoid the draft . You could if Daddy and Mommy had the assets to pay the bills for college. If you maintained that C- average you could avoid the draft.
The unfortunate who were ill or had health conditions didn't have to sweat the draft.
But not all the persons who avoided the draft by going to college went for an education. They went because they could, taking courses that didn't interest them, taking degrees in fields they'd never work in. They met the letter of the law. Fortunately for all of us we cannot discern the moral thinking that motivates us to obey the law. Those who avoided the draft by obeying the law allowing college deferments as their sole motivation are contemptible. They allowed the poor whose parents didn't have a house to mortgage or a well paying job to take their place on the battlefield.They didn't see the immorality of it or did and didn't care. Those are the men to hold in contempt. But only if they confess what they did will we ever know who they were. Some we can make a good guess on when we see how they deal with people now. Maybe they went to work in the savings and industry and caused its downfall in the 1970s. Or with Enron, Solyndra or A123. I wonder how many became lawyers.
The unfortunate who were ill or had health conditions didn't have to sweat the draft.
But not all the persons who avoided the draft by going to college went for an education. They went because they could, taking courses that didn't interest them, taking degrees in fields they'd never work in. They met the letter of the law. Fortunately for all of us we cannot discern the moral thinking that motivates us to obey the law. Those who avoided the draft by obeying the law allowing college deferments as their sole motivation are contemptible. They allowed the poor whose parents didn't have a house to mortgage or a well paying job to take their place on the battlefield.They didn't see the immorality of it or did and didn't care. Those are the men to hold in contempt. But only if they confess what they did will we ever know who they were. Some we can make a good guess on when we see how they deal with people now. Maybe they went to work in the savings and industry and caused its downfall in the 1970s. Or with Enron, Solyndra or A123. I wonder how many became lawyers.
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I respect those who stood their ground for what they believed, like Muhammed Ali. He manned up and paid for his views. I do not respect those who bailed out and fled to Canada or Mexico to avoid the draft. They left the rest of us holding the bag. The young folks who never faced the Draft don't care or think it slavery. Many of them could use the discipline the military provides. The draft had it's place. Every Swiss male serves his two years or so and takes his rifle home with him. The result, a country of armed citizens trained to defend their homeland, successfully since at least 1400 or so? If the draft was not in place in WWII the Axis would have won. An all volunteer Army may or may not generate superior soldiers. One point of view is the citizen soldier is engaged in real sacrifice for his or her country, not just looking for a career. I do not diminish the sacrifice of those who served, often multiple tours in Iraq or Afghanistan. They sacrificed too. But many of us put our education and lives on hold to answer the call of our country, slowing the advance of Communism. Without our service in a bold and overwhelming military, would the Soviet Union have failed, or absorbed more of the world.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
"Without our service in a bold and overwhelming military, would the Soviet Union have failed, or absorbed more of the world." This is a valid question.
With that said, the Soviet Union drove it self broke trying to keep up with US Defense spending, while attempting to use "other peoples' money" to support an economic system (Communism/Socialism) that, inevitably, leads to bankruptcy as all this "free money" becomes exhausted.
I actually did not put my education, or life, on hold; the DOD eagerly paid me to get my education, then I gave my service and enjoyed it. I'm hopeful that I made a difference.
With that said, the Soviet Union drove it self broke trying to keep up with US Defense spending, while attempting to use "other peoples' money" to support an economic system (Communism/Socialism) that, inevitably, leads to bankruptcy as all this "free money" becomes exhausted.
I actually did not put my education, or life, on hold; the DOD eagerly paid me to get my education, then I gave my service and enjoyed it. I'm hopeful that I made a difference.
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The Preamble of the US Constitution starts with three words..."We the People"....that means all of us. If "We the People" are going to "ordain and establish this Constitution" then by default we are saying that we are also going to defend the same so that what it stands for can be guaranteed for those who come after us. Those who dodged the draft were willing to give up what our Constitution does guarantee. For many folks, especially with the downgrading of our educational system, serving in the military is the first, and may be only, an education about the Constitution and what it stands for has ever been taught. Many will agree that patriotism is on the wane in our society. I personally feel that doing away with the draft began the slow drift that today, with some exceptions, has put a very lackadaisical attitude across our country when it comes to where we have come from and where we can still go because of this lack of education. With this lack of education and waning patriotism we are rapidly becoming vulnerable to what outsiders want us to be; and what they want us to be is not what we have been.
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SSgt Robert Van Buhler III
I am thinking the recent politicization of the military is harmful in ways the draft never did. When the Pentagon gets into Twitter battles with citizens it is time to step back and see how and what kind of constitutional education we are going to see in the armed forces. We are leaning toward re-education and purging patriotism out in favor of socialist viewpoints. We are on the cusp of universal Critical Race Theory training in areas of our culture that have been best at equalizing all races and creeds. Are we headed for Soviet style Political Comissars in every unit?
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SPC Steve dePinet
The current Government is a far cry from what our Founders envisioned, but what some of them feared could come to be, so it's no surprise that there were those who found means to avoid service, legally. There are those who find a means to not pay taxes, legally, too. Or, pay less taxes than would be expected. The Lawyers who become career politicians and write the Laws are available to hear the concerns of the wealthy, unsurprisingly.
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The writer has done a remarkable job in posing the question and has made compelling and thoughtful arguments supporting his positions. I would like to commend him for the thoughtful, concise, articulate and compelling presentation he has put forth.
Back in the 60's when there was a Draft you really only had a few choices: wait until you're called, enlist, opt out legally or apply for a deferment. The opt out or deferments were for justifiable and rational purposes. There was, of course some dishonorable folks that manipulated the opt outs and deferments but that shouldn't discredit those who did so for honest and true purposes.
So, not necessarily to agree or disagree with the writer's post I'd like to pass on a few observations around my own enlistment as they related to draftees.
First, I always felt Draftees, more so than Enlisted tended to more vocally complain about military rules, restrictions, discipline combat ethics and involvements in wars. They often combined their criticisms with witty humor, sarcasm and thought provoking comments.
A Draftee's harping and questioning was a big factor in keeping those in charge of the troops in check. A healthy dose of criticisms can often lead to real and positive behavioral change and is often a good thing, maybe something that is lacking in todays military.
Second, Draftees tended to be a bit more educated, and with more diverse backgrounds and the exposure to their complete and thoughtful arguments and discussions could often be persuasive and eye-opening to those less accustomed to educational and cultural diversities.
Third, after being discharged from the military a soldier's sense of pride and commitment to and for their service to their country becomes universal, whether enlisted or drafted.
In conclusion eliminating the draft has left too many of our citizens without any strong beliefs devotion, commitment and solidarity to one of our countries most important institutions we have in America... our military forces.
Back in the 60's when there was a Draft you really only had a few choices: wait until you're called, enlist, opt out legally or apply for a deferment. The opt out or deferments were for justifiable and rational purposes. There was, of course some dishonorable folks that manipulated the opt outs and deferments but that shouldn't discredit those who did so for honest and true purposes.
So, not necessarily to agree or disagree with the writer's post I'd like to pass on a few observations around my own enlistment as they related to draftees.
First, I always felt Draftees, more so than Enlisted tended to more vocally complain about military rules, restrictions, discipline combat ethics and involvements in wars. They often combined their criticisms with witty humor, sarcasm and thought provoking comments.
A Draftee's harping and questioning was a big factor in keeping those in charge of the troops in check. A healthy dose of criticisms can often lead to real and positive behavioral change and is often a good thing, maybe something that is lacking in todays military.
Second, Draftees tended to be a bit more educated, and with more diverse backgrounds and the exposure to their complete and thoughtful arguments and discussions could often be persuasive and eye-opening to those less accustomed to educational and cultural diversities.
Third, after being discharged from the military a soldier's sense of pride and commitment to and for their service to their country becomes universal, whether enlisted or drafted.
In conclusion eliminating the draft has left too many of our citizens without any strong beliefs devotion, commitment and solidarity to one of our countries most important institutions we have in America... our military forces.
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SSgt Robert Van Buhler III
The draft had a heavy influence on the enlistment of those more educated people who didn't want to be drafted. I was in USAF Security Service, since redesignated Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance Agency (nor Air Police, we had our own armed SPs). We were always told we were hand picked for IQ, education and ability to hold high clearance. The fact is, nearly everyone there under E-5 was there because they would have been drafted. They groused like typical draftees, but did their jobs well and had high unit cohesion for their own flights (four of them on rotating schedules) and called the rest of us "day ladies," which we accepted with humor. My point is without the draft, they would have been difficult to recruit, and I have always felt they were far more trustworthy than civilian employees would have been in those numbers, and at that level of security clearance, far away from their homeland. I really think they (we) were the pick of the litter. They still have annual meetups even today, 50 years later and that spirit and loyalty lives on.
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SPC James Drury
SSgt Robert,
Good little story. Pretty much aligns with my comments regarding Draftees. We hear in the news now how the military is attempting to eliminate those soldiers that hold differing political views, calling them "the enemy within".
This is a good example of what happens to the military without a draft that fills up the military services with those that have different and divergent life styles, politics, religions and ways of life. The resulting purges are turning the military into one single unhealthy flavor... Obedient!
Kinda like China.
Good little story. Pretty much aligns with my comments regarding Draftees. We hear in the news now how the military is attempting to eliminate those soldiers that hold differing political views, calling them "the enemy within".
This is a good example of what happens to the military without a draft that fills up the military services with those that have different and divergent life styles, politics, religions and ways of life. The resulting purges are turning the military into one single unhealthy flavor... Obedient!
Kinda like China.
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The bottom line is that most of you today never had to deal with the draft. To be forced into any type of forced service is wrong. It is slavery in its basic form. We that volunteered chose to defend our great nation. Those who were against it have to deal with their own beliefs and wonder why we who serve put ourselves in harm's way for them who won't. In the end, if we are subdued by those who try to defeat our way of freedom they will know why we choose to defend this nation.
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PO3 Edward Riddle
SPC Ed Kittle - I think you are wrong here. How is it not like slavery to be forced to do something you don't want to do? What is the education? Once drafted, you don't have a choice to serve in a different way. You were mostly going to war to be cannon fodder. I joined the Navy so I wouldn't get drafted and sent to Viet Nam. After serving on a ship off the coast of Viet Nam I volunteered for River Boats. The Navy was all volunteer so I'm glad I wasn't around anybody that didn't want to be there.
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This has got to be the best explanation of this subject matter, that I have ever heard or read about, anywhere. Hoorah!
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Being a "draftee" I never thought about it much, the draft has been in America for hundreds of years. I personally did not volunteer at the time because I had just got married, no not to avoid the draft that had already ended, I knew I was to be drafted, just delayed it as long as I could to get things situated. I have no problem with the draft, many say the the Vietnam Vet was one of America's best soldiers. Most that served were not draftees, most were volunteers, I volunteered for ABN and Infantry, was young and wanted to serve my country, as for others, had lots of friends join the reserves and guard, I have no problem with that. I do though have a dislike for those who ran, someone had to take their place. You have every right to disagree with your countries policy but not to run from you duty, that is not what made America great, not what made it the home of the brave, you have an obligation to serve if asked by your country, if not in the military in many other ways. Some of my friends joined the Peace Corps others volunteered at military hospitals, and helped families with their needs and sometimes with their grief. So I guess my answer is YES if the draft is needed and used in a fair manner, not like Vietnam, then it is ones duty to go.
Good points though SSGT, and a long Salute to you for your service!
Good points though SSGT, and a long Salute to you for your service!
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you also, for your service, and for thoughtfully and respectfully sharing your experience, and perspective. Consider your salute returned.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
Just a 'nit' but "...the draft has been in America for hundreds of years..." In the US, conscription was first instituted in 1863, during the Civil War; 158 years ago. "Hundreds"? Well, technically, yes because 1.58 centuries can round to 2. Buuuuut, still... :)
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But how do you feel about those who went AWOL before going overseas? Is it OK to run away when your number is called, or is there a difference? All were eventually pardoned, unfortunately.
Most here are way too young to comprehend the draft, but while millions stepped up, the rest fled to Canada and continued to bumrap the U.S., or stayed behind to ‘greet’ returning servicemen. I still have no use for the ‘peace’ symbol, saw it carried by too many assh...es.
Most here are way too young to comprehend the draft, but while millions stepped up, the rest fled to Canada and continued to bumrap the U.S., or stayed behind to ‘greet’ returning servicemen. I still have no use for the ‘peace’ symbol, saw it carried by too many assh...es.
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Sgt (Join to see)
LtCol Bruce Janis Semper Fi Colonel and welcome home! I still have no use for protestors of any kind.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
I would personally draw a line here: If one goes "over the hill" but returned after Carter's pardon, and Respected the Soldier who served, that's okay. (Maybe barely, but still...). If, however, you were a part of the crowd that did the typical 'greet' of US servicemembers who were returning (see Bruce's post, above) then that's beyond the pale.
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SHORT ANSWER..... No! Being true to one's self holds far more esteem then any dodger can explain
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