Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
250K
6.15K
2.36K
646
646
0
I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
I still say a man should have served honorably before he steps up to call himself Commander In Chief.
(3)
(0)
SPC Lyle Montgomery
Sp. 5 Peter hawkins, I agree but wouldn't want someone like Gen Miller at the top. Just because someone has served dosen't make them qualified for the top office.
(0)
(0)
I "dodged the draft"! I enlisted for 3 instead of waiting to be drafted for 2! Later I ended up on a "higher priority" assignment and got removed from Viet-Nam levy because of that!
(3)
(0)
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
Before You Taker This Jerk Seriously, Read His Bio, Then Decide.
I'll Pass, Not Me! ~ He Did Manage To Keep Southfield, Michigan; Safe.
That One Of The Places Did His Time ~ In The Reserves..
And As He Says:
"Respectful Regards".....
~ The Ink For That Rubber Stamp Is Probably Tax Deductible.~
I'll Pass, Not Me! ~ He Did Manage To Keep Southfield, Michigan; Safe.
That One Of The Places Did His Time ~ In The Reserves..
And As He Says:
"Respectful Regards".....
~ The Ink For That Rubber Stamp Is Probably Tax Deductible.~
(0)
(0)
i think donald trump is a chicken s--- and that he should never be a commander of anything. i , also, think every person in the united states should have to do at least 2 years of military service; male and female.
(3)
(0)
(2)
(0)
SP5 Delphis Kaczowski
I also think women should serve in our Military (National Guard ?). 50,000 women served in Nam in 1965.
(1)
(0)
SPC Ed Kittle
SSG Gerhard S. - Adapt for the people that need adaptation just like they do in the work force. There is a spot where anyone with any problems could be of support.
(1)
(0)
(1)
(0)
I am not mad at those who used legitimate deferments for education and then served. Most of our Officers , back then came from colleges,mostly ROTC, but also College Graduates that got drafted and then went to OCS.
(3)
(0)
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
Canada Must Have Overflowed With Them.
As We Were Enlisting,They Were Hauling Azz Out Of The States,
Heading To Canada And All Points North, Or Anywhere Else To Hide
As We Were Enlisting,They Were Hauling Azz Out Of The States,
Heading To Canada And All Points North, Or Anywhere Else To Hide
(0)
(0)
SP5 Delphis Kaczowski
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney - Canada will NO longer accept US Draft dodgers because they realized that Canadien men would go South if Canada went to an unpopular war.
(0)
(0)
I will answer this question as answered by my father that was a Platoon Sgt in Vietnam and was also a POW that escaped and was blown up and lost a leg and right lung and was ate up by agent orange and you didn't have to ask if he had PTSD, He lived it everday. All the lives lost, all the lives that were severely wounded. All the wounded souls. For nothing. All the families destroyed. American families and children that never knew their fathers. Nothing positive came out of Vietnam. We left and the Communist still took over. My father would say better go to Canada and be alive than to die for no reason. I seen others almost apologetic tell him that they didn't serve but wish they did go to Vietnam. He would tell them they were crazy to even think that. He would say look at my leg, is this what you want? For nothing. Better yet,, are you wanting to cone back in a body bag, for nothing. My father was highly decorated, airborne, instructor officer training at Ft. Benning. He went to every school there was and was a lifer. He loved the Army but he did not like watching men die for no reason. He did not like watching me bleed out and take their last breath for no reason. Vietnam was a waste of lives. He would not have anything against you for dodging Vietnam. And from me having to grow up with him and to witness the difference in him before and after, I would say run, don't walk to Canada as fast as you can. May he R I.P. because he didn't for the last 45 years of his life. For nothing......... There is a difference between draft dodger and hippies. Like the hippies that spit on my father in San Francisco, called him a baby killer and screamed for him to go back to Vietnam after he was in Japan for almost a year before the doctors felt he could make the flight back to the states. Screw you, you hippie freaks, but please, give the draft dodgers a break. Salute to all Vietnam veterans and their families!
(3)
(0)
SSG Gerhard S.
SGT Kenneth Stelly thank you for sharing your, and your father's perspective, and experiences. The cost of war, measured in dollars is minuscule compared to the cost in blood, resulting in family trees, truncated forever. Children never seeing, or having the support of their lost mother or father. THIS is why war should not be entered into friviously by politicians who rarely bare the consequences of their actions. This is why we're should not give politicians the ability to draft people into servitude to satisfy the meat-grinder of war, on the cheap. Respectful regards to you, and to your father for your respective services, and sacrifices.
(2)
(0)
(0)
(0)
SP5 Delphis Kaczowski
I was a Medical Corpsman Specialist at the 8th Field Hospital in NhaTrang. There is NO basic training that can duplicate the horror of combat, especially the dead, wounded, & dying right in front of you that were triaged as to #1; treat first, #2; treat last, 3; No chance of survival.
(0)
(0)
I was drafted during the Vietnam War era, and never considered escaping to Canada. I did not want to go into the Army, but I did so. I consider myself both antiwar, and a patriot. While it was mostly an unpleasant time, I also have good memories of that experience, and overall am glad that I served my time and received an Honorable Discharge. The best time was when I went TDY to Ft. Benjamin Harrison, and attended DINFOS. I was an Honor Graduate there (for two different times/instruction type). It was like attending college, with excellent instructors (both civilian and military). Two thumbs up to DINFOS.
(3)
(0)
A few things:
1. The draft wasn't well done, I believe that deferments were ok, but they should have been limited. Obviously this is through the lens of modern Ed, but college kids going for STEM type degrees should have a deferment, humanities, or other soft degrees should serve. Medical exemptions should be mandatory but only in the fact that it could actually limit ability, i.e. diabetes type 1 where you need insulin. Bone spurs is a BS deferment. Yes they hurt, but you can drive a truck.
2. If another large scale war were to kick off, there should be a required national service during a time of war/emergency.
3. Regardless of party, folks that did/do dodge/get out of military service should not be given cart blanch to use the military for their platform.
1. The draft wasn't well done, I believe that deferments were ok, but they should have been limited. Obviously this is through the lens of modern Ed, but college kids going for STEM type degrees should have a deferment, humanities, or other soft degrees should serve. Medical exemptions should be mandatory but only in the fact that it could actually limit ability, i.e. diabetes type 1 where you need insulin. Bone spurs is a BS deferment. Yes they hurt, but you can drive a truck.
2. If another large scale war were to kick off, there should be a required national service during a time of war/emergency.
3. Regardless of party, folks that did/do dodge/get out of military service should not be given cart blanch to use the military for their platform.
(3)
(0)
I do not believe that anyone of any party should be allowed to serve in any governmental position that gives them the authority to deploy United States military personnel it they themselves have not served in a capacity where they themselves could have been deployed.
No one should be able to deploy troops if they themselves never placed their own ass on the line.
That means I believe NO ONE should be President of the United States if they are not a Veteran.
No one should be able to deploy troops if they themselves never placed their own ass on the line.
That means I believe NO ONE should be President of the United States if they are not a Veteran.
(3)
(0)
SSG Roger Ayscue
SSG Gerhard S. - Understood, and good point taken, however, and this is tough for me as a conservative, but the most Hawkish of politicians and party talkers have never themselves served, much less been under fire.
I believe that if they had been under fire, or at least in uniform they would be much less likely to embark on frivolous operations and way less likely to use the US Military for Social Experimentation.
I believe that if they had been under fire, or at least in uniform they would be much less likely to embark on frivolous operations and way less likely to use the US Military for Social Experimentation.
(1)
(0)
LCDR (Join to see)
I respect your opinion SSGT Ayscue, but disagree with it. Few people ever serve as we on this platform did. However, NOT serving should not be a disqualifier. Perhaps REFUSING to serve when called, should be a disqualifier.
(0)
(0)
SSG Roger Ayscue
LCDR (Join to see) - It has to do with the understanding that a veteran has about what it is like to be deployed. The politician that has never had that experience does not understand what it is like to either be deployed or to have their lives risked as political pawns.
I just think that the old adage that "For those who fight for it freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
I just believe that a person should have been willing to risk their life before they are given the authority to write a check payable with the lives of someone else or the children of America.
We as leaders have a responsibility to ensure that the children entrusted to us by the parents of America to be troops are not wasted by some politician for no good reason or not trained correctly because some politician wants to make political points and social engineering rather than training an Army to fight and win.
I just think that the old adage that "For those who fight for it freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
I just believe that a person should have been willing to risk their life before they are given the authority to write a check payable with the lives of someone else or the children of America.
We as leaders have a responsibility to ensure that the children entrusted to us by the parents of America to be troops are not wasted by some politician for no good reason or not trained correctly because some politician wants to make political points and social engineering rather than training an Army to fight and win.
(1)
(0)
I dislike those who brag that that they didn't get drafted. President Biden didn't get drafted because he has asthma. I have a brother-in-law who had asthma and was able to spent thirty years in the US Air Force. I was drafted with a heart murmur. During my draft physical I told the doctor that I had a heart murmur. He listened to my heart and said, "yes, you do. 1A". I served twenty eight years with my murmur and still have it. :-) Those who brag that they weren't drafted aren't the price of a bullet.
BTW, when I was an Infantry training officer, we got a complete Detroit street gang thanks to a judge who gave them the opportunity of going to a jail or the Army. They chose the Army. They should have been broken up to other posts for AIT. My Senior drill sergeant kept them straight until the night before graduation when they robbed the dry cleaning delivery man. I don't know what happened to them in Viet Nam.
BTW, when I was an Infantry training officer, we got a complete Detroit street gang thanks to a judge who gave them the opportunity of going to a jail or the Army. They chose the Army. They should have been broken up to other posts for AIT. My Senior drill sergeant kept them straight until the night before graduation when they robbed the dry cleaning delivery man. I don't know what happened to them in Viet Nam.
(3)
(0)
SSG Roger Ayscue
I say again NO ONE should be allowed to be the President of the United States if he is not a VETERAN.
(0)
(0)
To be honest, it is my fondest hope that this country NEVER reinstates the draft. Or, if it does, there is a non-combat, or Civilian Employment option.
(3)
(0)
Read This Next


Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
