Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
Before bone spurs gets you upset Joe* had five education deferments and still graduated last in his class.
When graduating high school if your family had money you got to study art history, if not you got a bus ticket. Those that avoided the draft dealt with their guilt by believing they were more moral instead of chicken s*. Kerry threw his fake medals over the White House fence hoping to get laid by a hippie chick. Don’t get me started.
When graduating high school if your family had money you got to study art history, if not you got a bus ticket. Those that avoided the draft dealt with their guilt by believing they were more moral instead of chicken s*. Kerry threw his fake medals over the White House fence hoping to get laid by a hippie chick. Don’t get me started.
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Although This Was Posted on Jul 19, 2018,
My Feelings Remain As They Always Have,
I Have No Use For The SOB'S;
Nor Do I Associate With Any Of Them.
While They Were Headed To Canada, I Joined Up...
You Know The Location Where THEY Can Kiss,
My Feelings Remain As They Always Have,
I Have No Use For The SOB'S;
Nor Do I Associate With Any Of Them.
While They Were Headed To Canada, I Joined Up...
You Know The Location Where THEY Can Kiss,
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
SSG Gerhard S. - .... I Don't Know What It's Presently Referred To, But We Referred To It As "THE DRAFT"....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~This IS Your Statement, Correct?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"the Federal government would have to employ, pay, provide benefits, and possibly feed, and shelter approximately 10 million Americans (between the ages of 18-20) every year, who are involuntarily serving. "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~This IS Your Statement, Correct?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"the Federal government would have to employ, pay, provide benefits, and possibly feed, and shelter approximately 10 million Americans (between the ages of 18-20) every year, who are involuntarily serving. "
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SSG Gerhard S.
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney yes, that was in answer to the idea of universal service for all 18-20 year olds.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
SSG Gerhard S. - ..
One Of The Reasons I Signed Up On My 17th Birthday...
With a 10 Day "Early Out", I Had To Wait 10 More Days To Legally
Buy A Beer......
One Of The Reasons I Signed Up On My 17th Birthday...
With a 10 Day "Early Out", I Had To Wait 10 More Days To Legally
Buy A Beer......
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A1C Isa Kocher
SSG Gerhard S. - since when have politicians ever been anything but politically minded: except for the New Deal when has any generation of military not been shafted. even the GI Bill after WWII shafted all non-white military. all but a tiny handfull denied the free no down payment mortgages and education benefits that made the usa white middle class the world's richest
we serve and they profiteer. of course decent folk feel used abused and shafted. they are.
however it still is honorable to serve and it deserves serving honorably, and politicians eventually must face us., duty to serve goes beyond military service: every civilian is duty bound to make sure dirty politicians get their acts cleaned up. that's our job too
we serve and they profiteer. of course decent folk feel used abused and shafted. they are.
however it still is honorable to serve and it deserves serving honorably, and politicians eventually must face us., duty to serve goes beyond military service: every civilian is duty bound to make sure dirty politicians get their acts cleaned up. that's our job too
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I don't have an issue with those who had legitamate deferments, but I don't have any use for the cowards who went to Canada to avoid the draft. I volunteered for the draft in 1969 after high school. I figured that it was my duty to serve. I don't like ships and the water so the Navy was out. I didn't want to be a Marine so the Army was my best choice. By volunteering for the draft I was enlisting in the Army for 2 years instead of 3 and at the induction center, the Marines tried to snag me but couldn't because I was already in the Army although they tried. I had to take whatever MOS that the Army would give me which turned out to be 11 bravo. At 18 I served as a combat infantry M60 gunner in Quang Tri Vietnam for my tour. I didn't complain and did my job and got out after my 2 years. One of my classmates took the chicken shit cowards route and went to Canada to avoid the draft. While 2 of my other classmates, one a good friend, both got killed in NAM. Those 2, I have the utmost respect for and none for the draftdodgers They are cowards plain and simple and I would piss on their grave.
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Absolutely. I volunteered for the draft. I figured it was my duty to serve. I didn't want to be on the water so the Navy was out and didn't want to be a Marine so the Army was my choice. By volunteering for the draft I was enlisting in the Army for 2 years instead of 3 and had to take whatever the Army gave me for a MOS. which turned out to be 11 bravo. Also the marines at the induction canter couldn't snag me, although they tried. I was already in the Army. I carried an M60 in the bush in Quang Tri for my tour in Nam I was a combat infantryman and that was OK with me. A kid that I was in high school with went to canada. I consider him a Coward while 2 of my highschool classmates were killed in Nam. I have absolutely no respect for the chicken shit cowards that ran off to Canada
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You are blowing a lot of wind SSG. A draft dodger who insults a Military Family who has lost a loved one or insults someone like John McCain is lower than whale crap! So please stop the back door White Washing!
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for sharing your opinion, while totally ignoring the premise of the article. Respectful Regards MSgt
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
SSG Gerhard S. - .....
.~LMAO ~ Ya Prick~
~~I READ Your Bio ~~
You'd Not Know Military Service If It Bit Ya In The Azz.
"Respectful Regards",
My azz....
.~LMAO ~ Ya Prick~
~~I READ Your Bio ~~
You'd Not Know Military Service If It Bit Ya In The Azz.
"Respectful Regards",
My azz....
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SSG Gerhard S.
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney congratulations, you've received one of my extremely rare down votes. Not because we disagree but because you engaged in ad hominem attacks instead of addressing, in any way, the substance of the article.
That being the nature of the draft as involuntary servitude at best, slavery at worst. One suspects, if a person can't get past the first sentence without hollering "Trump-Trump-Trump" then perhaps Trump is living in that person's skull, and not being charged any rent. Or perhaps you just have a comfort with involuntary servitude/slavery, that i do not share. Either way, hope that works out for you.
Regards
That being the nature of the draft as involuntary servitude at best, slavery at worst. One suspects, if a person can't get past the first sentence without hollering "Trump-Trump-Trump" then perhaps Trump is living in that person's skull, and not being charged any rent. Or perhaps you just have a comfort with involuntary servitude/slavery, that i do not share. Either way, hope that works out for you.
Regards
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
SSG ~~ GERHARD SEIDEL...
.Thanks For The "THUMBS DOWN" I'm Glad You're Reading What I Have To Say.
NOW Flip That Thumb Around And SIT ON IT!
"Respectful Regards"
~ Ya Prick ~
.Thanks For The "THUMBS DOWN" I'm Glad You're Reading What I Have To Say.
NOW Flip That Thumb Around And SIT ON IT!
"Respectful Regards"
~ Ya Prick ~
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SSG Gerhard, I respectfully disagree with your definitions. My draft number was 68 and I decided to enlist for 3 reasons:
1. I could learn a trade.
2. I could show this country the gratitude that I have for all of the opportunities that it provides.
3. I could get a college education that I otherwise could not afford.
I learned much about the world and the people in it, both good and bad. There will always be those that avoid responsibility, that can not be changed but, some people need a little prodding sometimes. I was one of them. I consider it a fair trade, not indentured servitude and I am proud of my decision.
1. I could learn a trade.
2. I could show this country the gratitude that I have for all of the opportunities that it provides.
3. I could get a college education that I otherwise could not afford.
I learned much about the world and the people in it, both good and bad. There will always be those that avoid responsibility, that can not be changed but, some people need a little prodding sometimes. I was one of them. I consider it a fair trade, not indentured servitude and I am proud of my decision.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments, and for sharing your experience. Also, more importantly, thank you for your voluntary service. I totally agree that a great many benefit, and have pride in their country, and in their service. I would count myself as one of them.
This however does not change the definitions of those two words, nor the fact that a compulsory draft fits those definitions from Merriam Websters Dictionary.
Respectful regards.
This however does not change the definitions of those two words, nor the fact that a compulsory draft fits those definitions from Merriam Websters Dictionary.
Respectful regards.
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I agree with you I joined before most people ever heard of Vietnam or at least no war going on I joined out of desperation going on 17 with absolutely no future plans I had noting noting for me and all my family volunteered over the years to me it was a no brainer I admit I was worth less as a military men go at least that's what I was told and it kinda got branded in my mind.
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CPL Lee Brennan
MSgt Earl King now Google Obama trading 5 terrorists for a deserter that caused the life of a US Solider. Check mate.
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CPL Lee Brennan
MSgt Earl King Obama trading a deserter who cost the life of a solider for 5 terrorist. Check mate.
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Trump could have joined with his cohort (HS Class of '63) but he didn't; now he rants patriotism. He had a military education, mine was teaching. I didn't dodge the draft, and I served as ordered. I was not of the privileged class, he was -- and is. I don't preach 'Americanism' and cite Patton and MacArthur as my heroes -- he does, though I don't see how he dares, with no DD214! The rich only serve at their pleasure; deferments can be and are bought, with enough money. 'Nuff said!
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for sharing your perspective, and for serving. One wonders though, since you state the rich can buy deferrments, is this an indictment on Trump, or on the draft system itself? Either way, what of the actual point of the article? Are we truly a free country if our government can force people into involuntary servitude without the due process required by our Constitution?
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SP5 Wick Humble
Many, many of we conscripts felt that way in the 'sixties. I suppose it is a criticism of both the wealthy and the all-too-mallable system, huh? "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" saith Bobby McGee, according to the '69 hit song. Do we need a special 'freedom' just to be good folk? The bad sure want their 'Freedom' and 'Liberty' to rebel and hate.
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While I respect the opinion Maj John Bell at this point, it's all water under the bridge. I even forgive President Clinton. Even the most egregious "draft dodgers" are little more than feeble old men who can but live out the rest of their lives contending with their conscience. Most will be able to deal, and some will regret.
It's been years, nay decades. I say live and let live, regardless. I was a volunteer. When somebody says "Thank you for your service" it's for me. Not them, me. On my deathbed, I will be comforted by knowing that I served others for something bigger than me. This benefit is mine, and I cherish it. Anybody who avoided it won't have this benefit. That's good enough for me.
It's been years, nay decades. I say live and let live, regardless. I was a volunteer. When somebody says "Thank you for your service" it's for me. Not them, me. On my deathbed, I will be comforted by knowing that I served others for something bigger than me. This benefit is mine, and I cherish it. Anybody who avoided it won't have this benefit. That's good enough for me.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for sharing your, well stated, perspective, and for your voluntary service. I feel much the same regarding my service.
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