Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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People dodged the draft during the Vietnam period. Bill Clinton did and was pardoned by Jimmy Carter. A lot of people dodged the draft by staying and taking deferments. Some joined the National Guard and dodged it that way. The draft was created to make sure that everyone served, rich and poor. Didn't work out too well in the end.
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Its been 50+ years. We need to let it go. Start living and praying for what you got! God Bless
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Cpl Lawrence Lavictoire
Again, thank God for what you have. The past is, just that, the past.
God Bless
God Bless
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I feel each and every American man and woman owes two years to their country either in the military or in duties assigned by the government.
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1SG James Matthews
Under the designation of public service does not fill allocated jobs but it does allow for the individuals filling the public jobs to be authorized pay the same as it always has.
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SSG Gerhard S.
I remember the draft, and I would be happy if this travesty never reared it's ugly head here again. Regards.
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It doesn’t bother me I was in Viet Nam . Lots of president have not served it how they serve as COC that matters
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Are you really sure you want my answer, Son? First, you better pull your head out of that dictionary and someplace else. You need to do some reading on our country's history. Not that b/s that passes for schooling today. Read about the Civil War. Particularly about the Draft Riots in New York City and around the rest of the country. After that read that drivel you wrote about "servitude" & "slavery". SSG for a 11B2P you are sorely lacking in situational awareness. Very important for your MOS. How in the heck did you get promoted? Do you not realize that when you took the oath of enlistment you lost a lot of rights. You deploy when they tell you, you deploy where they tell you and a lot of other things when they tell you. Yes, you volunteered. But by your dictionary, you are either a slave or a servant. What you need to be is a leader. Leave the political crap in the civilian world. You have a job to do and that is to train your men, make sure their welfare is met. You are to be proficient in every task, weapon and any other manner of things they do. You are to be better at it at all times. That's why that question sucked, you don't have the time if you're doing your job.
As for the sick, lame and lazy cowards that fled to Canada, they should still be there!! Jimmy Peanuts is the reason the deadbeats are here now. Do you think me harsh? I DON'T care. I talked with my boyhood friend on Inauguration Day 1969. We wanted to meet, but I was packing out for Japan and he was headed for Vietnam. He, my cousin and I did everything together as boys. My cousin was stationed in Colorado with 4ID. That was the last time I talked to him. He was a Navy Corpsman. He was cut down in a rice patty tending to a wounded Marine. Actions have consequences, permanent consequences. If you pulled up your skirt and ran for the border, you ass better be there today. Because my friend is laying in Arlington and can't see his son.
There were 4 categories when I came into the Army. RA, US, NG & ER. The US was the draftees. Everybody else was a volunteer. The only one that stayed in as long as the US, was an RA. Regular Army. I received twice as much crap in basic because of I asked for it by volunteering.
Stay out of the dictionary, unless you use the words correctly.
As for the sick, lame and lazy cowards that fled to Canada, they should still be there!! Jimmy Peanuts is the reason the deadbeats are here now. Do you think me harsh? I DON'T care. I talked with my boyhood friend on Inauguration Day 1969. We wanted to meet, but I was packing out for Japan and he was headed for Vietnam. He, my cousin and I did everything together as boys. My cousin was stationed in Colorado with 4ID. That was the last time I talked to him. He was a Navy Corpsman. He was cut down in a rice patty tending to a wounded Marine. Actions have consequences, permanent consequences. If you pulled up your skirt and ran for the border, you ass better be there today. Because my friend is laying in Arlington and can't see his son.
There were 4 categories when I came into the Army. RA, US, NG & ER. The US was the draftees. Everybody else was a volunteer. The only one that stayed in as long as the US, was an RA. Regular Army. I received twice as much crap in basic because of I asked for it by volunteering.
Stay out of the dictionary, unless you use the words correctly.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your comments, and for validating most of my points. Yes, I volunteered, so that doesn't make my service Slavery, or Servitude. I had the freedom to choose my path. One being drafted does not. You may not see a difference between the two, but words have meaning regardless what one wishes them to mean, and the place one goes to find the meaning of a word IS called a dictionary. As far as the draft riots of the war between the States is concerned. They were justified in my opinion. One should ALWAYS resist slavery. Additionally, doesn't the idea of FORCING people to "serve", to ostensibly ( in the end anyway) free people from forced Servitude/Slavery strike you as ironic?
I thank you for your thoughtful input, and I value your service, as well as your opinion. Respectful Regards.
I thank you for your thoughtful input, and I value your service, as well as your opinion. Respectful Regards.
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1SG Charles Rivenburgh
Thank you for your replies. My Army in some ways is different from yours. But it still is meant to be a lethal machine of death and destruction. Meant not to win hearts and minds, but to take the enemy to their knees and beg for surrender. If more people thought of it in that manner there would less armed conflicts. You and I would not have lost friends. Your thoughts on forced conscription vs volunteer enlistment were well thought out. You IMHO used the wrong words. Yes, we don't give up our rights to think our political beliefs when we enlist. But b/c of the missions we have to do, politics is a nonentity. It must be checked at the door. As for draft dodgers, I have no respect for them. Especially the cut and runs. They are the worst. I do not tolerate cowards. After 50 years I have not forgotten and I pray to God to help to forgive. I have not forgiven yet. I'm so bad, I will not see any movie or anything with Jane Fonda in it. Her picture should be next to the word traitor in your dictionary. As for your use of the dictionary, Kudos to you. I also keep one close by me. I have several throughout the house. May I suggest keeping a thesaurus close by also. Thank you for lending an ear.
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I do not agree that the draft was a form of slavery. It was invoked as a resolution to fill a national requirement. I was too young to be drafted, but accept the fact the draft is a part of our history just as slavery was leading up to the US Civil War. We should accept these facts, learn lessons from these actions, and move on. I have seen other countries employ a 2 year commitment of "national service" and I do agree with this. This service can be in the form of Red Cross, Peace Corps, or some other group but this service gives back to society. Perhaps a national service requirement would increase the number of military volunteers.
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SSG Gerhard S.
So, anytime our politicians decide on a "national requirement" it's ok to take away people's freedom and force them to work for less, at something they may not want to do? Sounds pretty arbitrary. I'm just trying to get a good grasp on your position. Regards
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SSG Gerhard S.
Sir, did you say "Peace Corps"? Do you realize the Peace corps pays in the neighborhood of $150-$250 per month? And you think it's a good idea to require, (which is a euphemism for "force") people to "serve" society.... Somewhere else in the world?
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Yes, because those individuals who "dodged" and "ditched" are the very same individuals in positions of influence and affluence in American politics. Who would have guessed "dodging" and "ditching" could be so lucrative?
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Some deferments are very legitimate. Those few who fake them should be held accountable. I believe Trump went and played tennis after getting his last deferment. I hold him in contempt.
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Thought-provoking piece and many comments on all aspects. I served in the all-volunteer era, but would just say that some Americans at the time of Vietnam had the means (wealth, influence) to avoid the draft through various legal means, while many simply did not. The same thing has happened in previous conflicts as well. That troubles me. Our current president is not the first in my lifetime to face these questions - what bothers me about this man is hypocrisy: he hurled the same invective at others, but now his situation is somehow different. He compared clubbing in NYC in the 70s with being in Vietnam - a ridiculous assertion; and he has smeared more than one American Veteran (notably, John McCain) when he can not claim that honor and should just say nothing.
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COL (Join to see)
PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM - You are entitled to your opinions and your stories about Senator McCain. I won't dispute any of that. But he was there. It's not about whether he was a good officer or not, the President was critical of his capture, and the President himself DID NOT serve. It was a vindictive, petty comment, on air, as a candidate, because McCain was a rival. That's it. The same way he treats everyone who perceives as some kind of a threat to him. Regarding his other comments: "“It’s amazing, I can’t even believe it. I’ve been so lucky in terms of that whole world, it is a dangerous world out there. It’s like Vietnam, sort of. It is my personal Vietnam. I feel like a great and very brave solider,” from 1997 in a publicly broadcast interview on Howard Stern's radio show in NYC. The context was he was referring to was being a rich playboy in the NYC club's back in the '80s and 90s, and the "danger" of sexually transmitted diseases, among other comments. You can google the interview. He was of course, a married man at the time, BTW. Thanks!
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LTC Gary Earls
I would like to know how you can crash three aircraft going though flight school and still be able to graduate. Maybe because your father and grandfather were Navy Admirals. There are different stories on McCain during his time in the Hanoi Hilton. You come home and divorce your wife who waited on you during your captivity. McCain was hardly an angel.
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COL (Join to see)
LTC Gary Earls - That may well be but it doesn't justify the President's comments about a fellow Veteran who, while no saint, was there, did serve, and endured things that this sorry individual (DJT) would never have survived!
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LTC Gary Earls
I have a high school classmate who at our 45th class reunion bragged that he got out of the draft because he married right after high school. When our 50th came around, I decided to make him eat some crow. I bought a new set of dress blues, shoes ( I spit shined those) and other accessories. We show up at the reunion and he rushes up to me and said, 'Great looking suit, where can I get one?'. Before I could answer, my Army brat wife said, "You don't buy it, you earn it". He walked away and I didn't see him for the rest of the night. The girls who avoided me in high school treated me differently that night. :-)
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