Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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No One that thought themselves too good to serve, I.E. Clinton, Trump, Biden, Obama, and the likely next resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave deserved to be in that big ol' white building.
NO ONE who did not wear a uniform and could have been sent into harm's way should ever be allowed to hold an office where they can send someone else into harm's way.
Oh and just so it is fair, the pundits on Fox News that always rattle the saber for the US to send in troops, yet they never served themselves, like Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity, are rattling a saber that they did not earn the right to rattle.
I would restrict most federal offices to veterans, you are less likely to deploy troops for stupid reasons if you have been deployed for stupid reasons.
NO ONE who did not wear a uniform and could have been sent into harm's way should ever be allowed to hold an office where they can send someone else into harm's way.
Oh and just so it is fair, the pundits on Fox News that always rattle the saber for the US to send in troops, yet they never served themselves, like Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity, are rattling a saber that they did not earn the right to rattle.
I would restrict most federal offices to veterans, you are less likely to deploy troops for stupid reasons if you have been deployed for stupid reasons.
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Sgt Michael Clifford
There is no draft and there are a geewat number of women who VOLUNTEER to serve their country..
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SSG Roger Ayscue
SP5 Delphis Kaczowski - My wife served and there is not a draft. I am saying that no one who has not served should be able to send anyone else into harm's way since they themselves were not willing to go. I did not at anytime mention gender.
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The difference, bottom line, is if one took a medical deferment to avoid service and then 1.) lectured the nation on 'patriotism' ad nauseam, 2.) cited Patton and MacArthur as his heroes, and 3.) disparaged and disrespected Americans who served (often with great distinction - McCain) or considered honorable battle dead as 'losers' -- then yes, I resent that person highly.
BTW: the educational deferment was from a draft board, not the military per se, and was understood by everyone to be only temporary, a 'stay of execution' as it were; the draft was going to get you at the end of it, no question. Unless you found some Doc to sign-off on a medical condition, and AND then it passed the Armed Forces face-to-face medical review. I took the former*, accepted the latter, and served the term required by the Army; I did what they said to do, and went where they said to go -- period. I have a DD214 and an Honorable; a loud and rich politician never did -- nor will.
As McCain said, the draft proved to take conscripts from the lowest tier of our economic strata's, and seldom from the highest. Upset, of course!
*Worked my way through college to BA as a fire-fighter (Crew Boss), never borrowed a cent. GI Bill helped for grad school, though!
BTW: the educational deferment was from a draft board, not the military per se, and was understood by everyone to be only temporary, a 'stay of execution' as it were; the draft was going to get you at the end of it, no question. Unless you found some Doc to sign-off on a medical condition, and AND then it passed the Armed Forces face-to-face medical review. I took the former*, accepted the latter, and served the term required by the Army; I did what they said to do, and went where they said to go -- period. I have a DD214 and an Honorable; a loud and rich politician never did -- nor will.
As McCain said, the draft proved to take conscripts from the lowest tier of our economic strata's, and seldom from the highest. Upset, of course!
*Worked my way through college to BA as a fire-fighter (Crew Boss), never borrowed a cent. GI Bill helped for grad school, though!
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SP5 Delphis Kaczowski
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney - Everyone better remember that the FBI is also reading our conversations. Please do NOT use violence even if Trump encourages it. He has already stated in his GOP "Project 2025" that if elected we won't have to ever vote again. Also wants a 2nd American Revolution and has NO idea what could go wrong. Make another T-shirt for Harris and I will buy one (size large).
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
SP5 Delphis Kaczowski -
I'm Already On The Governments Watch List,
So Just Watch To See What I Do Next.
I'm Already On The Governments Watch List,
So Just Watch To See What I Do Next.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
SP5 Delphis Kaczowski -
TEMU.Com ~~
All Manner Of Special "T's "~ And BUNCHES Of Other Goodies Too.
~ Of Which I Have Many, Of Everything
TEMU.Com ~~
All Manner Of Special "T's "~ And BUNCHES Of Other Goodies Too.
~ Of Which I Have Many, Of Everything
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SP5 Delphis Kaczowski
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney - You must have scared Trumps Secret Service cops because they built a "Bullet Proof Glass Booth" for him to go into to do rallies.
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SSG Gerhard S.
One suspects if there is a call to arms to protect our Republic, there will be no shortage of volunteers. Conversely if there's a call to arms to protect some far-away, nebulous cause, or otherwise corrupt regime, one might suspect there'll be less enthusiasm.
Respectful Regards
Respectful Regards
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My Uncle Bobby was a WWII Marine. My cousin joined the Marines in 1968. He finished boot at Paris island and Training at Little Creek Virginia, He got orders to cross the big puddle to Vietnam. His Girlfriend told him if went she wouldn't be waiting for him. He chose to desert and went to Canada with her. It devastated my Uncle Bobby who at first was so proud my cousin enlisted in the Marines. Uncle Bobby passed in Summer 1986. my cousin was not at his funeral. I have come to terms with his choice, but still feel bad for my Uncle Bobby.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for sharing your very personal thoughts and experiences on this issue. There is little doubt the draft, in particular, and wars in general are disruptive forces.
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It used to be the citizens with the most and the most to loose were the first to step up before getting drafted. There used to be more virtue when the alumni of the ivy halls went to church and believed in civic involvement. There always has been and currently are my family members serving. I had four relatives on the USN Cole. With Marxist teachers it’s only down hill.
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A1C Isa Kocher
i enlisted during the cuba crisis. i got several degrees and graduate degrees as a disabled veteran and taught high school and college and was a Fulbright Fellow
right now so called capitalism has doomed the human family to virtual extinction caused by the climate catastrophe. Karl Marx himself denied being a marxist. Adam Smith the economist most connected with free market economics [developed based on Ibn Khaldun , the first free markert economy theorist] says corporations have no place in a free market because they create monopolies. Smith and Kaldun are truly in common league with most marxist economics which promote democratic control of markets.
as a teacher of anthropology I emphasized that human societies are based on sharing and mutual interdependence. nobody spears an elephant just to feed their own bellies but to support the whole community. nobody builds a hut or puts up a tent to sleep alone and especially when it is cold out. we all work for our families friends and neighbors
bad mouthing teachers is not patriotism and corporations profiteering from human extinction is not patriotism IMHO ... fighting and serving for we the people is my understanding of serving the country
right now so called capitalism has doomed the human family to virtual extinction caused by the climate catastrophe. Karl Marx himself denied being a marxist. Adam Smith the economist most connected with free market economics [developed based on Ibn Khaldun , the first free markert economy theorist] says corporations have no place in a free market because they create monopolies. Smith and Kaldun are truly in common league with most marxist economics which promote democratic control of markets.
as a teacher of anthropology I emphasized that human societies are based on sharing and mutual interdependence. nobody spears an elephant just to feed their own bellies but to support the whole community. nobody builds a hut or puts up a tent to sleep alone and especially when it is cold out. we all work for our families friends and neighbors
bad mouthing teachers is not patriotism and corporations profiteering from human extinction is not patriotism IMHO ... fighting and serving for we the people is my understanding of serving the country
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A1C Isa Kocher
[~1450153: Sgt James - who mentioned communism. i mentioned the us constitution. explicitly. The Constitution of the United States of America for which I took an oath to defend: that constitution, with my life and my whole life has been devoted to that oath ever since.
US Supreme Court, McCulloch v Maryland 1817, unanimous decision
quote" the United Sates is a union of the people, governed by the people, for the sake of the people."
1861 - 1865, 400 thousand us Americans died to preserve that union of the people governed by the people for the people and McCulloch v Maryland was the legal foundation, and the constitutional mandates it explains and affirms, for the US to engage in the Civil War against the traitors who used force to tear apart the union of the people, including people from every territory and state in the union joined the union army to defeat the enemies of the union we swear to defend and uphold
1942-1945 WE, us, the people of the United States fought to preserve protect defend our union of the people. 400 thousand of us again gave the ultimate sacrifice.
Anyone who can call our constitution evil cannot honestly say they are keeping their solemn divine oath to god to this constitution so sanctified by the sacrifices of so many souls and their families and friends who are we the people, solemnly sworn in unity, we the people. thanks be to god who has so blessed us
US Supreme Court, McCulloch v Maryland 1817, unanimous decision
quote" the United Sates is a union of the people, governed by the people, for the sake of the people."
1861 - 1865, 400 thousand us Americans died to preserve that union of the people governed by the people for the people and McCulloch v Maryland was the legal foundation, and the constitutional mandates it explains and affirms, for the US to engage in the Civil War against the traitors who used force to tear apart the union of the people, including people from every territory and state in the union joined the union army to defeat the enemies of the union we swear to defend and uphold
1942-1945 WE, us, the people of the United States fought to preserve protect defend our union of the people. 400 thousand of us again gave the ultimate sacrifice.
Anyone who can call our constitution evil cannot honestly say they are keeping their solemn divine oath to god to this constitution so sanctified by the sacrifices of so many souls and their families and friends who are we the people, solemnly sworn in unity, we the people. thanks be to god who has so blessed us
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I had to live through the draft period during Vietnam. It was a scary time and philosophically and morally a big dilemma for many. Like taxes, some chose to do anything and everything to avoid paying THAT piper. There's few under age 65-70 that have any idea what is was like to be an American teenager then so should not be in any credible position to judge.
Personally since it's been over 60 yrs, I think it's time to move on and let it go. When full equality happens and women are drafted during an active war, then perhaps the subject can be revisited.
Personally since it's been over 60 yrs, I think it's time to move on and let it go. When full equality happens and women are drafted during an active war, then perhaps the subject can be revisited.
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SPC Lyle Montgomery
SSG Gerhard S. - I volunteered for the draft and I sure as hell feel honored to serve. In 69 when we served with regular Army And Draftees, We all did our part. I have no problems with those who were never called or even the guard and reserves although I did somewhat back then with the NG and ER's. Bottom line is that I never wanted to be a career soldier and by volunteering for the draft, it was a 2 year enlistment instead of 3.
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SSG Gerhard S.
SPC Lyle Montgomery thank you for your voluntary service, and sharing your thoughts, and experiences.
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SSG Gerhard S.
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney respectfully, it IS involuntary servitude when the "choice" is the false-choice of involuntary servitude, or involuntary imprisonment. So, while I agree it was both an honor, and a pleasure for me to Voluntarily serve, one might suggest it may be neither to one who wad forced to do so. Particularly given our politicians record of repeatedly getting us involved in foreign wars, only to abandon the cause, even after the treasure has been spent, the blood shed, and the lives destroyed by death, maiming, and a lifetime of psychological turmoil.
Regards.
Regards.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
WE Both Had Choices....
I Chose To Enlist..
You Chose Not To Do Sh*t And Became A Reserve...
Like An Extra Can Of Beans, In Case You Ran Out Of Materials
To Work Up A Fart.
"Respectful Regards"
I Chose To Enlist..
You Chose Not To Do Sh*t And Became A Reserve...
Like An Extra Can Of Beans, In Case You Ran Out Of Materials
To Work Up A Fart.
"Respectful Regards"
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Suspended Profile
I came from a family that had served in every war this nation had since arriving from Sweden in 1870. I enlisted in 1968 because I wanted college, had no money, dirt poor farm kid and I knew a draft was coming anyway (my birthday when it happened was number six, I'd been in for 18 months then), the idea of not serving never occurred to me. I've never felt anything like hatred or even disgust for those who refused and accepted their consequences. I didn't like then, and don't now, those who used money and influence to avoid service. I felt I owed something to this nation for my freedom and still do. What I dislike most of all is those who used every trick possible to avoid service and then later become "chicken hawks", unwilling to serve themselves but eager to send other people's children off to fight and die. Them I have complete contempt for and always will.
SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your voluntary service, and for sharing your own experiences, and thoughts on this issue.
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There is no doubt in my heart AND mind that Involuntary Servitude is enslavement. Therefore, I cannot condemn nor judge anyone who did what they could to avoid it. It was devastating to me, being drafted via "immediate conscription because i.t was alleged I was a "delinquent registrar" for the draft. A Major General at Ft. Lewis, Washington, put a letter on top of my file stating I was a "threat to good order and discipline" and a professional "malingerer" and that I should be given a rifle and sent as "far forward into combat" as soon as I arrived in Vietnam, as an Infartryman. I was accordingly sent into the Central Highlands, and my second day in the jungle mountains went up a hill with 105 other grunts, and five days later only 32 of us were evacuated from the hill. So, simply put, the Army did its professional best to get me killed dead, as fast as possible. I was decorated for valor twice in those first five days so they tore the General's letter out of my file. Later I became a Special Operations Team Leader in a Ranger designated unit and continued in the military for the next nine years. My final three years, carrying around the Presidential Nuclear Codes and standing ready to brief the President and guide him through a nuclear scenario. So, it turned out I was not a "malingerer" and they did try their damnedest to kill me off, but failed. I don't begrudge anyone for hightailing it to Canada or Sweden, seducing or bribing a doctor to obtain a deferment medical diagnoses, or just plain going on the lam. The Southeast Asian Conflicts were a genocidal series of wars that devastated millions upon millions of lives, and families. They were a form of legalized murder, crimes against humanity itself and murderously criminal. The fact that nobody has been sentenced to death or long, long imprisonment for them, save for one rotten, scapegoat Lieutenant (Calley) only illuminates that the least of the crimes was enslavement, "involuntary servitude" and must NEVER be allowed to recur. So far we have PROVEN we learned NOTHING for the cost of those millions of lives, and 58,000 some odd American lives; see, we are still, like insane people, repeating the exact same mistakes again and again, expecting a different result; let's face it: our strategies and tactics for limited warfares around the world in unconentional warfares have ALWAYS failed. You would think at least one moron in the Pentagon would say, "This stuff has never worked; it has been an unmitigated failure each and every time we've tried it. We need rid of these doctrines and we need an entire revision of what they're doing down at Fort Bragg and in the CIA..." and get it done before another 70,000 American lives are squandered on failed strategies, tactics and military-industrial catastrophes. If you don't understand that, you are part of the murderous problem in its' perpetuities.
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SP5 Wick Humble
Have to agree, especially on the repeating aspect; as the folk song said '... When will they ever learn?" Tragically, every new generation that come up thinks it's the first -- and only. I almost cried when Obama sent us into Afghanistan, the graveyard of the British for a century, then the USSR troops. Or when "W" decided he ould use the military to make good Republicans out of the various fanatics of the Middle East. What's next; Ukraine? LeMany's 'Bomb them back into the stone age' didn't work, nor did saturating the ground with the blood of infantrymen -- us -- so why follow a bankrupt policy further? My best Army buddy died in "Nam two weeks in-country from a booby trap; he hadn't even gotten his first dirty laundry back before his life ended -- for no good reason. I've mellowed a bit at age 76, but I'll never forget -- never!
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SSG Gerhard S.
SP5 Wick Humble thank you for your service and for sharing your perspectives. It's bad enough that generation, after generation of politicians keep using the same failed playback, and use the draft to do so on the cheap. Perhaps it's even worse that those who served, buy into the idea that it's one's duty to blindly follow those politicians, and to suggest, or demand that it is the responsibility of our young men to dutifully sacrifice their futures for those misguided politicians.
Respectful regards
Respectful regards
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SSG Barry Toll
SP5 Wick Humble - Thanx for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I don't know what keeps me resident in this crazed land, beyond comfortable familiarity. The pain of our constant folly sours the joys of my old age. We can but keep on telling the younger citizens what we have seen and experienced in the hopes it resonates with a few of them.
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