Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
We no longer have the draft because since 1970 solders were killing their leaders. We lost one third of our causalities in South Vietnam from landmines and booby traps. No army could win a war with those statistics.
Did you vote for AWOL Bush?
Prosecute Bush for war crimes
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ [login to see] 85520/
President Bush and seven of his administration's top officials, including Vice President Dick Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, made at least 935 false statements in the two years following September 11, 2001, about the national security threat posed by Saddam Hussein's Iraq
...[as] part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses.
http://www.truth-out.org/rumsfeld-era-propaganda-program-whitewashed-
Lying the US into Iraq
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4RZO8y-R9k&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3qwOWddjedvIKm3akPygWtF3Q4IjSf-Uy4DWjgKj5QV74yUai_3nzKUYc
Prosecute Kissinger for war crimes
For secretly bombing Laos and Cambodia, his supporting Latin American's operation Condor, and supplied West Pakistan arms while it was doing a genocide in Bangladesh. Both the CIA and the State Department conservatively estimated that about two hundred thousand people perished, while ten million desperate Bengali refugees fled into India. Kissinger joked about the massacre of Bengali Hindus, and privately scorned those Americans who “bleed” for “the dying Bengalis.” https://www.facebook.com/groups/ [login to see] 4524/
Did you vote for AWOL Bush?
Prosecute Bush for war crimes
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ [login to see] 85520/
President Bush and seven of his administration's top officials, including Vice President Dick Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, made at least 935 false statements in the two years following September 11, 2001, about the national security threat posed by Saddam Hussein's Iraq
...[as] part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses.
http://www.truth-out.org/rumsfeld-era-propaganda-program-whitewashed-
Lying the US into Iraq
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4RZO8y-R9k&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3qwOWddjedvIKm3akPygWtF3Q4IjSf-Uy4DWjgKj5QV74yUai_3nzKUYc
Prosecute Kissinger for war crimes
For secretly bombing Laos and Cambodia, his supporting Latin American's operation Condor, and supplied West Pakistan arms while it was doing a genocide in Bangladesh. Both the CIA and the State Department conservatively estimated that about two hundred thousand people perished, while ten million desperate Bengali refugees fled into India. Kissinger joked about the massacre of Bengali Hindus, and privately scorned those Americans who “bleed” for “the dying Bengalis.” https://www.facebook.com/groups/ [login to see] 4524/
General Antonio Taguba, who investigated the torture regime and said that "there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes" and "the only question that...
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Screw those traitors. At least Muhammad Ali had the backbone to stand and take the consequences for not serving. For no other reason than pardoning, I will forever have disdain and speak with derision regarding President Peanut Farmer.
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As an RA and volunteer for Vietnam I think the time has come to end this “draft dodger” label. Years ago I felt very strongly in my disgust with those who chose not to go. In 2021 I can’t and won’t expend the effort. They know who they are and what they failed to do. I’m sure that the majority view those who went as “chumps”, while they smirked as they accumulated their deferments. People don’t really care anymore, the world has moved on. Yeah, I’m also 100% disabled.
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I’m a Vietnam veteran I served so those butt heads had the freedom to run and hide under their mothers skirt, I had a friend that came from Lebanon he told me when your time was up and you had go to the military they came to your home and took you by gun point if you refused you’re family would pay the price I tend to believe this guy he kind of crazy in his own way,
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SPC Steve dePinet
Could you have gone as a 2Lt with the same bone spur? I believe the physical requirements for a 2Lt (doing his job in a combat unit) would be more demanding than what a CDR would face, but I was never in combat, so I could be wrong. The 1Lt I reported to in a non combat unit in the Cold Wart, in Germany did not face any physical challenges at his desk, but that would be different had he been leading a Platoon of 11Bs in a Combat unit.
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SPC Steve dePinet
CDR Tom Davy - And, I'm not taking a position on that, I was too young for the Vietnam Draft, but volunteered when I was 18. Thank you for your service.
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I am not of the Vietnam era but my father enlisted to avoid the draft and I myself have grown up in the army as he decided to make a career out of it. I joined myself and cannot imagine having a soldier who is absolutely unmotivated due to draft conditions. While I see your point about the arguments for and against a draft, I have to take a different view. I believe that if we were to have a national service requirement on everyone regardless of anything that a draft would no longer be servitude but a requirement. Not all of population needs to serve in the military, there are a great number of good places to utilize the national service people. Habitat for Humanity always needs people along with many schools that are run by tax dollars needing unskilled labor for free. If a person with power and privilege is rejected from this system then they are not to be respected or even cared for by our society. If we can find ways for those with disabilities to improve and benefit the society then why should we allow detractors to use us. I believe that the draft of Vietnam along with the other actions both for and against have left our society hurting for a way of allowing the people feel connected to the national outlook and direction. This alienation stems from the unfair draft policy meant to protect the powerful and rich. While those that left chose to do so and with that choice they need to continue to suffer, while those that used the system I will say that I am disappointed. But alas the system has lots of abuses built into it. If we take out the injustice then we can really let the people who choose to leave be forever dismissed from our society.
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let it go, those who dodged the draft are in their 70's now it is done and over with.
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no, not at all. avoiding the draft because you don't agree to an unjust war, i think that is a great virtue. but those who had money and faked a medical condition like a bone spur to dodge the draft is a coward.
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SPC John Tacetta
Having grown up during that period I never really felt indisposed to those draft dodgers in the first place. I knew many who answered the call and many who turned away. Many of my friends were baffled when I joined. It was a very unpopular conflict that seriously divided the nation and gave military service a bad name, but it's is now ancient history.
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MSG Izy Veguillacruz
SPC John Tacetta - Hey brother John how the hell are you haven't seen you since KNB Kuwait hope you are well.
Izy
Izy
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