Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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As a Viet Nam Era veteran I think it was fundamentally wrong to purposely avoid the draft because our nation needed us and service was an obligation at the time; however, I don't hold disdain against those folks because there were deferments and "loopholes" that made it relatively easy to avoid service depending on the year and some did not avoid service deliberately but more by circumstance. Some people served by going into the Peace Corps and others I knew joined ROTC in college but never went on active duty. Others served in the National Guard or reserves. Serving was a privilege and a defining period of my life. I feel sorry for most of the people that did not have the opportunity and honor of serving during that time. Some had bad experiences but I had mostly good ones. I was in the USMC and I benefited greatly from my tour of duty. COL L
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I have always played by the rules and you can't assume that everyone who didn't go somehow broke the rules which is usually how the term "Draft Dodger" is generally used. Many were unfit to serve just as many leave Voluntary service involuntarily for medical issues even when they want to stay in. I know quite a few recruiters and hear many stories about the Recruits they tried so desperately to get into the Marine Corps and they failed enlistment for mental, physical and Scholastic reasons. Knowing that hundreds if not thousands every year get denied the right to voluntarily serve I have to imagine that if a real Draft were put into effect amazing numbers would fail the process. Point being thousands failed entry during the Draft for truly legitimate reasons even the one who were lying to get in. With that said you get to the next tier of 'Dodgers' rich kids is the usual term applied to those who found ways not to serve but many were no doubt bad candidates as well just like the thousands of poor kids. Education exemption was not just for rich kids but obviously there were huge disparity in College graduates based on paying for college. Money being a rare thing back in the 50s and 60s for poor kids wanting an education. At the end of the day it takes political connections to get into West Point, Air Force and Naval Academy. Why is it so hard for people to stomach that that same political clout can work the other way as well. Rich Senators kids always seem to get a Free Government Scholarship so why would it be a surprise that those same kids found exemptions not to serve? Its not the kid's fault that their parents have influence and they are found following in the wake of that influence. I don't hate them for it, hate the system or find a way to fix it but don't blame the President for his Father's influence. Back then Kid's actually listened to their parents and did what they were told.
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From my perch, I discovered the difference between the draft & an all-volunteer military boils down to a matter of quality.
The draft brought quantity.
Volunteerism brings quality.
How many people I saw were either drafted or signed up in another branch who were supremely unqualified to be in the military.
I would hope that’s what the Generals are thinking when they’re thinking about quarterly staffing quotas.
And to those who would add “the military is a the right environment for an immature individual to grow & mature”, I wholeheartedly agree........with one caveat: at least have some mentors available to help green horns gain their confidence when the time comes to “sink or swim”.
Finally, my thanks to SSG Seidel for a well-thought-out response.
The draft brought quantity.
Volunteerism brings quality.
How many people I saw were either drafted or signed up in another branch who were supremely unqualified to be in the military.
I would hope that’s what the Generals are thinking when they’re thinking about quarterly staffing quotas.
And to those who would add “the military is a the right environment for an immature individual to grow & mature”, I wholeheartedly agree........with one caveat: at least have some mentors available to help green horns gain their confidence when the time comes to “sink or swim”.
Finally, my thanks to SSG Seidel for a well-thought-out response.
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AB Edward Mondini
SMSgt Bob W. Many good points, Bob, and, like everything else of this magnitude, hindsight is........well, you know the well-worn phrase.
If we were talking about marrying the draft with Kennedy’s Peace Corps, we’d end up in a totally different discussion. When we take the debate over the draft and then, mid-point, bring in the Vietnam Conflict, now we have an outright 3-dimensional quagmire that spirals in all different directions.
If we were talking about marrying the draft with Kennedy’s Peace Corps, we’d end up in a totally different discussion. When we take the debate over the draft and then, mid-point, bring in the Vietnam Conflict, now we have an outright 3-dimensional quagmire that spirals in all different directions.
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SSG Edward Tilton
Bull Puckie, I had 26 year old draftees who were college grads. They were not officers because they wanted to do the two years and get out.
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AB Edward Mondini
SMSgt Bob W. You’re right. I was focused on the returning soldiers-turned-veterans as it relates to the Vietnam Conflict and all the issues that spun off from just that aspect.
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We (I) May not like it but a legal deferment is just that on the other hand going AWOL or leaving the country is a different matter
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I do respect the service members that fought and gave their lives in Vietnam. But..... Hindsight 20/20, it seems like EVERYONE should have dodged that draft. The Vietnam war was a total s@&t show. I’m glad the US was able to evacuate so many south Vietnamese though.
I was in Saigon last week and I talked to a few people there about that war. Even they don’t really consider themselves “victorious” in that debacle.
The main reasons that kept popping up were:
1. When the the Viet Cong finally took over the south they learned that 92% were already evacuated. “Wtf? Where is everyone"? They thought they were going to be able to unite the whole population and convert them to communism. Instead they were left with mostly old senior citizens that they had to take care of.
2. They were left with a land of agent orange and unexploded bombs.
3. The south Vietnamese were granted automatic citizenship. While the north Vietnamese were stuck there to clean up a mess.
4. The lopsided number of deaths.
I was in Saigon last week and I talked to a few people there about that war. Even they don’t really consider themselves “victorious” in that debacle.
The main reasons that kept popping up were:
1. When the the Viet Cong finally took over the south they learned that 92% were already evacuated. “Wtf? Where is everyone"? They thought they were going to be able to unite the whole population and convert them to communism. Instead they were left with mostly old senior citizens that they had to take care of.
2. They were left with a land of agent orange and unexploded bombs.
3. The south Vietnamese were granted automatic citizenship. While the north Vietnamese were stuck there to clean up a mess.
4. The lopsided number of deaths.
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Sgt Michael Clifford
Perhaps we should have abandoned the South Koreans in 1950 as well. We lost an awful lot of good men just to be stalemated at the 38th parallel for almost 70 years. Of course then instead of a vibrant, modern, economic, democracy in the southern half of the Korean peninsula we would have the entire peninsula living in darkness and fear every night.
I think that many who were involved in the early days of Vietnam were thinking in terms of another Korean situation. Later because of the political elements in government trying to micromanage the day to day fight it became like the "Tar Baby" in the Disney 'Uncle Remus" cartoon. The more we tried to end it the more stuck we got.
If we had the advantage of hind sight regarding conflicts we might never have any wars. Unfortunately we don't have that ability so we stumble along making mistakes. We are only human after all.
I think that many who were involved in the early days of Vietnam were thinking in terms of another Korean situation. Later because of the political elements in government trying to micromanage the day to day fight it became like the "Tar Baby" in the Disney 'Uncle Remus" cartoon. The more we tried to end it the more stuck we got.
If we had the advantage of hind sight regarding conflicts we might never have any wars. Unfortunately we don't have that ability so we stumble along making mistakes. We are only human after all.
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SSG (Join to see)
Sgt Micheal CLifford - NOPE, not a stalemate since we SAVED the South Korean people whom thank us in more ways than one on a daily basis. Ever been to South Korea? I have. Was stationed there from 2016 to 2017. It is a great example of American greatness and effort. Yes we lost a lot of good men. 44 thousand compared to the 58 thousand in Vietnam. So Korean war was worth it. Especially since Vietnam war was somewhat pointless.
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SPC John Tacetta
Sgt Michael Clifford - You forget your history. We "lost" Vietnam primarily because we refused to invade the North as we feared direct conflict with the Russians and Chinese as happened during the Korean War, Our ability to actually "win" the war was amply demonstrated in 1973 when we mined the harbor of Haiphong; too little too late. So Vietnam was always going to be a war of attrition and the American people rapidly grew weary of seeing their sons, fathers and brothers come home in body bags for no evident purpose.
At least in Korea we fought the Chinese to a stalemate that has allowed the South Koreans to build a vibrant economy. To paraphrase Churchill: "Democracy is the worst of governments, except for all the others that have been tried."
At least in Korea we fought the Chinese to a stalemate that has allowed the South Koreans to build a vibrant economy. To paraphrase Churchill: "Democracy is the worst of governments, except for all the others that have been tried."
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SSgt Robert Van Buhler III
And now, Vietnam is a shirt-tail ally against the expansion of Red China, a popular tourist destination that sells coffee, textiles, clothing and other articles to the USA and other Western countries. If you are not an ally in the cause of independence from an oppressive colonial power they seek other allies. Ho Chi Min was a patriot who fought the Japanese, and didn't want the French back after WWII. Should we have helped the French reclaim their far flung claims on the rest of the world, and cause people in SEA to turn to communists as allies? History often looks different 50 years later.
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Unless the enemy is at the shores, I do not believe that the draft is consistent with a free people.
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Sgt Dale Boston
you see a sniper is afflicted from a long distance, pal if you wait until they are on your shores you have lost the battle and the war and your freedom.
consider this had we waited until the japanese overthrow Hawaii and we started to fight from shores of California we might be speaking Japanese today. or waited until the Germany overthrow all of Europe? you gotta understand military strategy and tactics.
even the American Indians understood this, ask General custer.
what happened at the alamo, you need to study History.
consider this had we waited until the japanese overthrow Hawaii and we started to fight from shores of California we might be speaking Japanese today. or waited until the Germany overthrow all of Europe? you gotta understand military strategy and tactics.
even the American Indians understood this, ask General custer.
what happened at the alamo, you need to study History.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Sgt Dale Boston - Put down the crack pipe. I'm not suggesting disestablishing the military. I study enough history, thank you very much. I also have intact brain cells.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Well said Sir, and as stated in the article, should we ever have the threat of invasion, one suspects there will be no shortage of volunteers.
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Face the facts, of course they are legal because some individuals actually have the problem. Other's like tRump pay for their problem to go away...obviously.
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I never faced the draft, because I joined at 17, after serving in combat, I quickly came to the conclusion that I did not want to be in a combat environment with anyone who did not want to be there with me. When I became a law enforcement officer, I quickly applied the same philosophy to that profession. When my life is on the line, I want to be able to trust the man (or woman) who is fighting alongside me. I also came to realize that there are really only 2 % of us who are not sheep (followers) 1% are innately evil and 1% are warriors. Our best leaders (not commanders) can only be found in the 1% who are warriors. With that in mind, sheepdogs do not bite the sheep, even if they don't like them.
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SPC John Tacetta
I think I like your comment, but I'm a little unsettled by your opinion that policing is a "fight". All problems look like nails to a hammer. Please don't bite the sheep. Thanks.
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CWO4 Ray Fairman
I have not always liked all the sheep i protected over the last 5 decades, but I have never bitten a single one. To do so would have shown disrespect to the Good Shepherd that entrusted their care to me. And I have suffered many an attack by wolves and even a few angry rams while standing my watch over them... But that is why so few people really want the jobs I had since '63 and I still say that was a fight against evil almost every day. Best of luck in your future.
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The draft has been over for 47 years.... The only ones we should care about being a draft dodger would be a Commander in Chief sending anyone into Harm's Way who faked an excuse to get out of the draft.. Trump comes to mind
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SSG (Join to see)
Since Trump has been in office the number of US personnel in the middle east has DROPPED greatly. And how was Obama's illustrious military career?
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SSgt Robert Van Buhler III
And yet, here we are a year later with a President deferred from the draft by"childhood ashma." "Biden obtained five student draft deferments from the Vietnam War. In 1968, based on a physical examination, he was given a conditional medical deferment; in 2008, a spokesperson for Biden said his having had "asthma as a teenager" was the reason for the deferment.[31]" What's good for the goose......
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SSG (Join to see)
SSgt Robert Van Buhler III - Whooooooaaa... I didn't know about this one. Either way, just like Trump I don't knock Biden for avoiding the mess that was Vietnam war. I'm just curious why so many democrats avoid talking about Biden's dodge.
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