Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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For those that ran off to Canada, to avoid service during the Vietnam era, I have nothing be contempt and disdain. For Jimmy Carter (a Naval Academy graduate), who issued a blanket pardon for them (And gave away the Panama Canal, which is now operated by red China), even more contempt and disdain.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. Do you have any thoughts related to the idea that forced "service" is akin to servitude, or slavery.
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SSG Ken Gilder
I believe that argument has been rejected by the courts. The US drafted people in every war since the Civil War, then ended the draft when large numbers of personnel were not needed in the armed forces. But after WW II, the draft became permanent, up to the time we went to an all volunteer force. The length of service was changed to two years, from "six months after the conclusion of the conflict."
Young men still have to register, and there is a court case pending, to have young women register, as well.
The theory, is that if you want to enjoy the benefits of citizenship, or permanent residence in the US, you should give something back. If not in the military, then, in the Peace Corp, VISTA, or other, similar program. I happen to concur.
Young men still have to register, and there is a court case pending, to have young women register, as well.
The theory, is that if you want to enjoy the benefits of citizenship, or permanent residence in the US, you should give something back. If not in the military, then, in the Peace Corp, VISTA, or other, similar program. I happen to concur.
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For those that ran off to Canada, to avoid service during the Vietnam era, I have nothing but contempt and disdain. More contempt and disdain for Jimmy Carter (A Naval Academy graduate), for issuing them a blanket pardon. (And for giving away the Panama Canal, now being operated by the Communist Chinese.)
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I believe that everyone is or has an opinion on the subject. I know this for fact Mr. Trump may have used the legal means to avoid service that is what is available. He did not go to London and seek protection in the Russia like another president did. The others that were pardoned by Mr. Carter I have nothing for. Our system, the one that many of us defended allows the actions that we are discussing. As I said before to each their own but if you are going to dis one then dis them all.
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Its amazing when the media put out that Trump got a medical deferment from serving in Viet Nam, veeryone was up in arms, but the fact is Bill Clinton ran to Canada, and somehow that's OK??? Please explain that one!
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SPC Michael Tierney
Clinton did not go to Canada. He certainly had a convoluted route to avoid the draft. He did go to England as Rhode's Scholar but, by then, graduate deferments had been eliminated. Unlike Trump, Clinton expressed his opposition to the VN war. And he left it at that. Trump's infamous quote that "his personal Vietnam was avoiding STDs in NYC" is a reflection of his arrogant approach to being a draft dodger. He just didn't want to lose out on any party time.
Also, comparing Clinton and Trump is really poor strategy for an argument. "My guy is no worse than your guy" doesn't win many debates.
Also, comparing Clinton and Trump is really poor strategy for an argument. "My guy is no worse than your guy" doesn't win many debates.
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SSG Edward Tilton
Clinton didn’t get a pass, he was ridiculed daily in the press. Romney wa a Missionary in PARIS, FRANCE. I don’t know how many souls he saved.
As far as I am concerned draftees should not have been sent to Vietnam. It was a big Army room for all. Germany paid draftees half of what an enlisted was paid.
As far as I am concerned draftees should not have been sent to Vietnam. It was a big Army room for all. Germany paid draftees half of what an enlisted was paid.
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I enlisted after high school, draft dodger the easy way, why, because my father servdd. First as a Merchant Marine, then as an enlisted man in the US ARMY. I also have a friend who never served in the military. At the time he was a civilian engineer for the US NAVY. I consider him serving in a different way. Anyone who has/had a job on a military base as a civilian, served differently. Because they kept the military functioning. Look how World War One MOH recipient Alvin York or World War Two MOH recipient Dawson Doss, both believed killing even in war was wrong. Sgt. York killed to prevent his felllw soldiers from being killed. Pvt. Doss, became a combat medic to save the lives of men in his company. But those men who ran up to Canada or to other countries where they would not be sent back for draft evasion, but returned years after the Vietnam War was over, should never be allowed to serve in any position in government, local, state or federal government political or non-political jobs. Forgiveness should never be rewarded in any way. Boxer Mohammed Ali stayed in the US, after he refused to be drafted, for religous reasons. He went to prison and lost his championship title. Him, I have always forgiven, and cheered his come back as a boxing champion. He never lost his citizenship and did his time. Others whose families bought their way out of the draft, never served, should have been banned for life, from ever being granted contracts of any sort. Political service is another subject that draft dodgers with big money should never be allowed for life. The likes of Clinton, Barack Obama, Bernie Sanders and yes even our sitting POTUS, Donald J. Trump, should have never been allowed to serve in government. You notice I left out George H. Bush. He served in the Air Force Reserves. But few remember his father, George H. W. Bush, was director of the CIA, under Presidents Nixon and Ford. The chance of him becoming a POW, would have hurt the senior Bush. All the others who never served, got deferments for various reasons. Mr. Sanders never had a real job outside of being elected mayor of a small town, should not even be allowed to run for dog catcher let alone POTUS. Oh and Mr. Biden and the ladies who never served in the military, you should hang your heads for not doing so too. There is no draft these days, but look at all the women who are serving now.
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SPC Michael Tierney
Obama was too young to have been subjected to the draft. Sanders draft number came up but he was too old. Sanders did apply to be classified as a CO but that was denied. Clinton used every means to avoid the draft but mainly, he was in school when his draft notices would have been sent. Trump is the poster child for draft dodgers.
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Those that ran off to Canada and Sweden should have been forced to stay out of this country. Others that used various means to avoid the draft that were not available to many, we can discuss later.
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SSG Edward Tilton
I was in operations with 1/27th Infantry in 66, that was the unit in platoon in 68. So I lived it. I volunteered for Vietnam in 63, Korea in 64 Korea in 65 Vietnam in 66 and 67
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I served in the US Army from 2010-2014. When I joined the US was still engaged in both OIF and OEF. Joining the Army was the best thing that ever happened to me. I served honorably, and I am a disabled veteran. In my opinion it seems that the era of conflict is of a particular importance. For example, I believe WW2 was a legitimate conflict. For a draftee to dodge their obligation of service during this war, in my opinion, would be unacceptable. However, in my opinion the Vietnam War was not a legitimate conflict. The risk to ones life upon being drafted was considerably high. I believe that based upon my own record of voluntary service that perhaps I would have volunteered in the same way that I did for OIF and OEF. The men who dodged the draft during Vietnam were trying to prevent their lives being taken by an obvious illegitimate war. I cannot fault them for this. Blame should be placed upon the corrupt government and politicians who propagated such a war. Those who did serve in Vietnam have earned respect and their service should not be diminished in any way.
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CPL Justin Higgins
SPC John Tacetta Your comment is fragmented and difficult to understand. Why would I cry if I’m jailed for exercising my second amendment rights? And if I am jailed, we all have bigger problems then we could ever possibly imagine.
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SPC John Tacetta
CPL Justin Higgins - Justin, what I mean is that you cannot disregard laws you deem unjust (even if they truly are) without consequence. The concept of Civil Disobedience was perfected by Ghandi and was instrumental in Britain's granting India independence. Ghandi's tactics overloaded the judicial system until it was effectively at a standstill and exposed the brutal repression that the Indian people endured at the hands of the British to the world. But Ghandi and his followers knew that they would be incarcerated, and they were. Mandela adhered to a similar tactic, refusing conditions on his freedom. Too often I hear Americans chafe at the fact that they are mishandled or incarcerated while opposing an "unjust" law, but that's really what civil disobedience is all about. The draft dodgers of the 60s and 70 did the same, suffered similarly and ultimately the draft was halted (not abolished) because of the divisions it caused in the nation. So say I: "Don't cry when you suffer in your opposition to unjust laws, but bear the burden you chose to take on." Who knows, you could prevail - it's certainly happened before..
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SSG Edward Tilton
Your opinion doesn’t matter. If you are a soldier you go. It was a different world then, A male couldn’t get a decent job without having addressed his service obligation. If you couldn’t get into and stay in college you would get drafted. Most I knew “pushed up their draft”, they contacted the draft board and got moved to the top of the list. It was two years at the pleasure of the Army. I always wanted to be a soldier and enlisted as soon as I was 17.
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I don't see why we should over half of the Politicians done so and no one seems to find it strange just when President Trump didn't attend. The Clintons Protested the Viet-Nam War But Bill Was President. The draft was removed for a reason. Many People Volunteered we don't hold those that didn't on a lower threshold. It is a petty attack on the President just to try to unseat him like many things that's been done to people in this administration, It's time for folks to get back to doing their Business and quit finding reasons to be Mad at each other.
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SSG Edward Tilton
Maybe that is part of my problem. I never thought of Vietnam or Korea as protecting America. I certainly didn’t want GOD dragged into it. I was a soldier, it was my job.
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