5
5
0
Before anyone goes off on this, I AM a supporter of the police. Biased as I am towards them being a former MP, I have to ask has the Thin Blue Line become more of a broad stroke with impunity? Has policing in America become more like the policing of the wild, wild west? Or has the internet and social media allowed the masses to see in real time what has been going on for decades?
United States
Police
Justice
Law Enforcement
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 17
6
6
0
SSG Warren Swan - It certainly appears, from the information provided, that the police officer used excessive force/deadly force when it was not warranted. Again, I caveat that with "from the information provided". There will be a complete investigation and appropriate action taken as a result of the investigation.
While this incident and several others that have been in the media are unfortunate, they still represent a very small percentage of officer contacts with the population, the vast majority of which are very professionally handled, even the ones where deadly force is required. Every profession has its bad apples and the police are no exception. In addition, police are human and make mistakes, just like everyone else.
Are the police becoming too powerful? No -- the criminals are. The lawlessness displayed and the disrespect for the police, supported by a "progressive"/permissive society, spurred on by race baiters and liberals, to include our current Administration, is the catalyst for the increasing number of issues we have been seeing.
While this incident and several others that have been in the media are unfortunate, they still represent a very small percentage of officer contacts with the population, the vast majority of which are very professionally handled, even the ones where deadly force is required. Every profession has its bad apples and the police are no exception. In addition, police are human and make mistakes, just like everyone else.
Are the police becoming too powerful? No -- the criminals are. The lawlessness displayed and the disrespect for the police, supported by a "progressive"/permissive society, spurred on by race baiters and liberals, to include our current Administration, is the catalyst for the increasing number of issues we have been seeing.
(6)
(0)
SSG Warren Swan
Thanks Sir, but wouldn't you say that for the police to get respect they have to give it, and it shouldn't based upon economic status, class, or race? Living in the projects will get a much different response than a suburb for the exact same crime. In regards to the criminal aspect, I'd argue that the criminals aren't more powerful, but that the laws in some cases are too lax. Are we a victim of our own successes in regards to freedom?
(0)
(0)
COL Jean (John) F. B.
SSG Warren Swan - Yes, that is true, however, the truth of that matter is that the police, more and more, are not getting the respect they deserve. More and more, they endure profanity and abuse from the population they serve, particularly in the projects and areas like that. You reap what you sow.
I always told my MPs that I expected them to be professional and courteous at all times. However, I caveated that with guidance that, if the person they are dealing with becomes an asshole, they are authorized to become a bigger asshole (to a point).
The criminals are more powerful in that they feel more empowered by the moral decline and lawlessness we are experiencing in this country, and the propensity for the media to take the sides of anybody who has a confrontation with the police, regardless of the situation.
If people would simply follow the lawful instructions/orders of the police, most of the issues would be non-existent. It has become a very dangerous game/pastime to confront the police, particularly when the cameras are present. As such, I am surprised the incidents, such as the ones in the article, are not more common than they are.
I always told my MPs that I expected them to be professional and courteous at all times. However, I caveated that with guidance that, if the person they are dealing with becomes an asshole, they are authorized to become a bigger asshole (to a point).
The criminals are more powerful in that they feel more empowered by the moral decline and lawlessness we are experiencing in this country, and the propensity for the media to take the sides of anybody who has a confrontation with the police, regardless of the situation.
If people would simply follow the lawful instructions/orders of the police, most of the issues would be non-existent. It has become a very dangerous game/pastime to confront the police, particularly when the cameras are present. As such, I am surprised the incidents, such as the ones in the article, are not more common than they are.
(2)
(0)
SSG Warren Swan
COL Jean (John) F. B. - "I always told my MPs that I expected them to be professional and courteous at all times. However, I caveated that with guidance that, if the person they are dealing with becomes an asshole, they are authorized to become a bigger asshole (to a point)"...I've also heard that when I was a MP.
Not fully sold Sir, on your third paragraph. I do agree we are seeing a moral decline, but is it because of the advances in technology and the ability to see things more readily than in the past (what would've happened with Rodney King had there been social media back then), and when it comes to the media, anyone with half a brain should know there are three versions; yours, mine, and the actual truth. But the fourth version "their" truth will be played in the media.
Not fully sold Sir, on your third paragraph. I do agree we are seeing a moral decline, but is it because of the advances in technology and the ability to see things more readily than in the past (what would've happened with Rodney King had there been social media back then), and when it comes to the media, anyone with half a brain should know there are three versions; yours, mine, and the actual truth. But the fourth version "their" truth will be played in the media.
(1)
(0)
COL Jean (John) F. B.
SSG Warren Swan - You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however, I will stick to mine, with no caveats.
(1)
(0)
3
3
0
SSG Warren Swan As a long time LEO (started in 85, so I think that qualifies), and I now work in one of the most violent cities in the Nation, I can tell you that society has been slowly degrading it's support for law enforcement to a point where there are entire areas that HATE anything that the Police do, which is absurd. Occasionally (and if you really have any understanding of law enforcement, the percentage is a fraction of a fraction of a percentage) there are bad uses of force by law enforcement. And hopefully, those bad uses of force (which you still have to be damned careful to examine-because in the instant a police officer hesitates, he is dead) are properly investigated, and if criminality uncovered, then disciplinary procedures and/or prosecution when warranted. The problem (and this has been covered to the same level as should a 2nd Lt salute a 1st Lt) is that in modern American society, it is now considered sport to try and catch police encounters on video. The problem with that is that the entire (and I mean the entire encounter) tends not to be filmed, just the highlights. All due respect to our Military Police (and I am a currently serving Security Forces member, which is the Air Force Cops), if you are not actively working the "street", and by that I do not mean Base Housing, your view is narrow. Go work in a major city and see the crime and activity that is going on, and prepare to have your mind blown.
Before I start making assumptions on cases that the media puts on blast, I try and look at the situation in the entirety (which I, just like everyone else, will have a hard time doing, as we were not there). Add to it that witnesses (who were not there) will come forward and lie in an attempt to get the Police in trouble, because they hate the Police, and you have now complicated an already complicated situation.
Cops today have an incredibly hard job, compounded by being tried in the media before the incidents are fully investigated. Whenever excessive force is used, it is tragic-and that does not matter if against ANY particular race, excessive force is wrong. Keep in mind though, when making judgements about the "actions/reactions" of law enforcement officers-they are always behind the reactionary gap, and if they react wrongly, they die. They absolutely have a right to defend themselves up to and including the use of deadly force. The need to use such force must be viewed-not through the eyes of everyone else-but through the eyes of the officer involved-it is his/her perception of a situation that dictates what force to respond with. And to be clear, not too many people have violent encounters with Police when they do as they are asked-and then fight the action in court. Oftentimes the non-compliance of the "offender" began long ago.
In conclusion:
1. No, I do not think that law enforcement is becoming too powerful. I actually tend to think that in the not to distant future, people are going to be in a world of hurt, because there will be more and more police who will not be proactive, because they will have learned from watching their co-workers get dragged through the mud, that career wise, perhaps it would be better to simply try and not do anything that could potentially lead to an encounter, maybe the robbers, rapists and murderers will simply turn themselves in to face charges. If that happens (not being proactive), and I sure as hell hope that it does not, you will see crime rates skyrocket, because criminals, who by the way, do not give a flying crap about anyone, and who are already emboldened, will really let loose.
2. Social media and the news, while showing incidents, do not show the entire incident-start to finish, and they also do not have the same knowledge (for good or bad, limited or extensive) that the officer had going into the situation. They broadcast whatever portion they obtained.
Are there bad cops-sadly, yes. Their career longevity tends to suck, because they do bad things, just like the bad guys. You simply do not see too many happily retired crooks, dealers, pimps etc.
Apologies for ranting a little, but...I do not feel that RallyPoint is the place for dragging the profession of law enforcement through the proverbial mud.
Before I start making assumptions on cases that the media puts on blast, I try and look at the situation in the entirety (which I, just like everyone else, will have a hard time doing, as we were not there). Add to it that witnesses (who were not there) will come forward and lie in an attempt to get the Police in trouble, because they hate the Police, and you have now complicated an already complicated situation.
Cops today have an incredibly hard job, compounded by being tried in the media before the incidents are fully investigated. Whenever excessive force is used, it is tragic-and that does not matter if against ANY particular race, excessive force is wrong. Keep in mind though, when making judgements about the "actions/reactions" of law enforcement officers-they are always behind the reactionary gap, and if they react wrongly, they die. They absolutely have a right to defend themselves up to and including the use of deadly force. The need to use such force must be viewed-not through the eyes of everyone else-but through the eyes of the officer involved-it is his/her perception of a situation that dictates what force to respond with. And to be clear, not too many people have violent encounters with Police when they do as they are asked-and then fight the action in court. Oftentimes the non-compliance of the "offender" began long ago.
In conclusion:
1. No, I do not think that law enforcement is becoming too powerful. I actually tend to think that in the not to distant future, people are going to be in a world of hurt, because there will be more and more police who will not be proactive, because they will have learned from watching their co-workers get dragged through the mud, that career wise, perhaps it would be better to simply try and not do anything that could potentially lead to an encounter, maybe the robbers, rapists and murderers will simply turn themselves in to face charges. If that happens (not being proactive), and I sure as hell hope that it does not, you will see crime rates skyrocket, because criminals, who by the way, do not give a flying crap about anyone, and who are already emboldened, will really let loose.
2. Social media and the news, while showing incidents, do not show the entire incident-start to finish, and they also do not have the same knowledge (for good or bad, limited or extensive) that the officer had going into the situation. They broadcast whatever portion they obtained.
Are there bad cops-sadly, yes. Their career longevity tends to suck, because they do bad things, just like the bad guys. You simply do not see too many happily retired crooks, dealers, pimps etc.
Apologies for ranting a little, but...I do not feel that RallyPoint is the place for dragging the profession of law enforcement through the proverbial mud.
(3)
(0)
SCPO (Join to see)
I've posted the exact same sentiments myself. Society, in general, would need to walk A THOUSAND MILES in our moccasins to get even an understanding for what we do, what we endure, and what we survive every single 8-hour shift!!!
(2)
(0)
CMSgt James Nolan
SCPO (Join to see) You are spot on. SSG Warren Swan I do not mean to in any way be disparaging to the profession of Military Law Enforcement, the mission of Military Law Enforcement is absolutely essential-and like I said, I have been and continue to be serving in that capacity. I am simply stating that the two military/civilian are worlds apart in terms of what constitutes a "duty day". I am proud of what I have done, and I know that our MP/SP/MAs have had some truly horrific (not combat related) days, (been there and done that), but it simply does not equate to what goes on out on the "street" every day.
To the MP/SP/MAs still serving, never grow complacent, because truly, evil is looking to visit even the most peaceful bases, and you are the Defenders. And for those who have moved on, certainly the diligence of duty was key to the prevention of untold evils.
To the MP/SP/MAs still serving, never grow complacent, because truly, evil is looking to visit even the most peaceful bases, and you are the Defenders. And for those who have moved on, certainly the diligence of duty was key to the prevention of untold evils.
(1)
(0)
SSG Warren Swan
CMSgt James Nolan - Senior, I understand what you were saying with your post and don't see it as a rant. And for most of it I agree with it.
As far as videotaping incidents, I think that is a good thing AS LONG as it doesn't interfere with the duties of the police. Most of the videos shown have shown that the folks filming were a decent distance away and not really protruding into the crime scene. I think bodycams are an awesome advance when used. Dash cams are too when used. We have the technology to make it harder for anyone to lie steal and cheat, but don't use it, or get upset when that ONE guy screws up and a civilian has it on his phone.
Cops have rights just like the civilians do, but that knowledge has to go both ways, and I see it as neither respecting the others in some cases (I've been really lucky), and there's the disconnect. I applaud those cops who stop and play with the kids (not enough of them), who stop and assist motorists (not enough of them either), or go to the playground and interact on foot with the locals (again not enough of them). Those are the ones that DON'T get enough press, enough videos taken of them, or enough awards and recognition. Those are the cops that are really doing their jobs above and beyond. It's bigger than writing tickets, going to court, arresting folks, and the mountains of paperwork associated with the first three. There's a lot of community policing, but not enough community policing with community outreach in some areas.
As far as videotaping incidents, I think that is a good thing AS LONG as it doesn't interfere with the duties of the police. Most of the videos shown have shown that the folks filming were a decent distance away and not really protruding into the crime scene. I think bodycams are an awesome advance when used. Dash cams are too when used. We have the technology to make it harder for anyone to lie steal and cheat, but don't use it, or get upset when that ONE guy screws up and a civilian has it on his phone.
Cops have rights just like the civilians do, but that knowledge has to go both ways, and I see it as neither respecting the others in some cases (I've been really lucky), and there's the disconnect. I applaud those cops who stop and play with the kids (not enough of them), who stop and assist motorists (not enough of them either), or go to the playground and interact on foot with the locals (again not enough of them). Those are the ones that DON'T get enough press, enough videos taken of them, or enough awards and recognition. Those are the cops that are really doing their jobs above and beyond. It's bigger than writing tickets, going to court, arresting folks, and the mountains of paperwork associated with the first three. There's a lot of community policing, but not enough community policing with community outreach in some areas.
(1)
(0)
CMSgt James Nolan
SSG Warren Swan Appreciate that, because I was not trying to be argumentative. Things to consider: departments are undermanned and underfunded-so that complicates outreach. Cameras/data storage is very expensive-useful, but expensive, and there are a lot of issues-they only work when on: can the officers turn them off? If so, when do they turn them on? If they are not always on, you will always miss part of an incident. If they are never off, how can a police officer have any privacy (for example to talk with his/her spouse). People do often get in the way with cameras (I have seen it firsthand). Policing is a tough nut. People need to realize that there are good and bad, and the bad get weeded out. There is never an excuse to assault a police officer-that is what courts are for.If
(1)
(0)
2
2
0
SSG Warren Swan One of many things that has made and will continue to make our country great is the ability to express your opinion. As a career LEO in and out of the military, I see the 1% of LEOs who are being accused of wrongdoing, overshadowing the favorable and positive actions of the majority of LEOs throughout our great Republic. That said, for officers who are convicted based on proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the punishment should be weighted based not only on the violation committed but also based on the trust violated. There are enhancement offenses throughout the criminal justice system, whether state or Federal. Create one for LEOs who commit crimes under the color of law.
Back to your original question, are the police in America becoming too powerful? No. In fact, because of hiring procedures, cultural stigmas, social pressure, and knee jerk reactions, the LEOs who have sworn to protect and serve are having their ability infringed upon, based on the negative press of the few as opposed to the positive press of the many. We must, first and foremost, police ourselves. Do I dislike body cameras, no. In fact, I welcome it, as one more piece of evidence to be used at prosecution and in protection of me when I am falsely accused. Much like in car video, there will be shocking video on both sides. Just for the sake of remembering, please watch the video pertaining to the murder of Nacogdoches County, Texas Constable Darrell Lunsford (one of the first uses of in car video) and South Carolina State Trooper Mark Coates. Both are tragic. For the most part, over 98%, LEOs place there own lives in jeopardy to protect the public. We don't ask for thanks, we do ask for respect.
The general public should examine all of the facts before making any conclusion. As a LEO I don't make arrests before probable cause is established and I don't expect convictions in cases where the proof is not beyond a reasonable doubt. LEOs deserve this consideration when accused of wrongdoing. Being tried and convicted in the media is not fair and is rarely based on fact.
Lets all just slow down, take a breath, and remember that without the thin Blue Line, there is anarchy. One other sad fact, you cannot remove the human factor from law enforcement or the general public, mistakes will be made.
Back to your original question, are the police in America becoming too powerful? No. In fact, because of hiring procedures, cultural stigmas, social pressure, and knee jerk reactions, the LEOs who have sworn to protect and serve are having their ability infringed upon, based on the negative press of the few as opposed to the positive press of the many. We must, first and foremost, police ourselves. Do I dislike body cameras, no. In fact, I welcome it, as one more piece of evidence to be used at prosecution and in protection of me when I am falsely accused. Much like in car video, there will be shocking video on both sides. Just for the sake of remembering, please watch the video pertaining to the murder of Nacogdoches County, Texas Constable Darrell Lunsford (one of the first uses of in car video) and South Carolina State Trooper Mark Coates. Both are tragic. For the most part, over 98%, LEOs place there own lives in jeopardy to protect the public. We don't ask for thanks, we do ask for respect.
The general public should examine all of the facts before making any conclusion. As a LEO I don't make arrests before probable cause is established and I don't expect convictions in cases where the proof is not beyond a reasonable doubt. LEOs deserve this consideration when accused of wrongdoing. Being tried and convicted in the media is not fair and is rarely based on fact.
Lets all just slow down, take a breath, and remember that without the thin Blue Line, there is anarchy. One other sad fact, you cannot remove the human factor from law enforcement or the general public, mistakes will be made.
(2)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google