Morale
Morale
Posted on Aug 20, 2019
Should active or reserve mil pers be discharged "other than honorable" for displaying or assoc with Nazi or White Supremacy symbols/groups?
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Posted in these groups: 
Morale
Constitution
Morale Constitution
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 26
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Displaying, no, but in today's PC environment the people who do this are more likely than not to run up against other UCMJ infractions that will lead to discharge.
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Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
SSgt (Join to see) See your point, but tough to pull off, especially in CONUS.
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SSgt (Join to see)
Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen - When I was in, pagers were a thing. Unless you had a MilSec pager, they were not allowed at the unit. When we geared up for Desert Storm we were expressly ordered no comms on UseNet, BBSes, pagers, et al. No telling our spouse we were maybe shipping out. Nothing - full comm blackout. Then CNN was embedded deeper than a tick and the generals started seeing things happen on TV before the Captains were even aware of the strategy.
Now, we have another dimension to warfare and that is the electronic spectrum, to include social media. It also includes disinformation pogroms and hacking events. And this is the area we will be beat if we don't lock it down.
I totally hear you though Sir. It is so ubiquitous that there would be a revolt in the ranks.
Now, we have another dimension to warfare and that is the electronic spectrum, to include social media. It also includes disinformation pogroms and hacking events. And this is the area we will be beat if we don't lock it down.
I totally hear you though Sir. It is so ubiquitous that there would be a revolt in the ranks.
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CW4 Craig Urban
Barrows you are way off base. I wish you would have worked for me. You would not have retired.
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CW4 Craig Urban
My best friend a combat medic dennis french got killed on the battlefield in Nam. I am tired of your crap
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Displaying? No. That is covered under 1a and just displaying it means nothing. Many people have a rebel flag. Also people collect vintage material like flags and such. The caveat to that is if the display of such causes an issue with other personnel in the unit. IE displaying a rebel flag in the same room as a POC; a Nazi flag in the same room as say a person of German, Jewish or other heritage that finds it offensive.
As far as association with those groups? For a repeat offense after being ordered to NOT associate with them, then yes. But once it is discovered they associate with say the KKK, Aryan Brotherhood or some other such ground they should be counseled with the appropriate regulation reference stating that such association is conduct unbecoming and a poor reflection on the Army as well as a degradation of morale and unit readiness. Then follow on with an outline of cease and desist... OR...
As far as association with those groups? For a repeat offense after being ordered to NOT associate with them, then yes. But once it is discovered they associate with say the KKK, Aryan Brotherhood or some other such ground they should be counseled with the appropriate regulation reference stating that such association is conduct unbecoming and a poor reflection on the Army as well as a degradation of morale and unit readiness. Then follow on with an outline of cease and desist... OR...
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1SG (Join to see)
SSG Brian G. refereing me the a Study Guide is hilarious.
I read AR 600-20, and a few of the posted training and lesson plans with handouts regarding related policy.
If you believe that you're going to find everything prohibited thing, it demonstrates your level of experience.
Regardless, you've reached your opinion based on your review of the Study Guide, and I from AR 600-20, and we have differing opinions.
I read AR 600-20, and a few of the posted training and lesson plans with handouts regarding related policy.
If you believe that you're going to find everything prohibited thing, it demonstrates your level of experience.
Regardless, you've reached your opinion based on your review of the Study Guide, and I from AR 600-20, and we have differing opinions.
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SSG Brian G.
1SG (Join to see) - You are putting in person opinion. Not even AR 600-20 supports you. In point of fact it supports the Study guide.
When we set opinion aside, your argument deflates. It is up to commander discretion as to what transpires as the regs do not mandate.
A smart and thinking commander, which most are, walks into a situation like the display of a flag that is perhaps questionable and refers the matter to his or her NCOes which look at it and ask the pertinent question. Is this affecting the unit? Is it affecting any person in the room with the SM? If both are no then the commander can leave it in place. It does not affect anything. If the answer is yes, then the commander acts and orders the removal and stowage of the item. Case closed.
When we set opinion aside, your argument deflates. It is up to commander discretion as to what transpires as the regs do not mandate.
A smart and thinking commander, which most are, walks into a situation like the display of a flag that is perhaps questionable and refers the matter to his or her NCOes which look at it and ask the pertinent question. Is this affecting the unit? Is it affecting any person in the room with the SM? If both are no then the commander can leave it in place. It does not affect anything. If the answer is yes, then the commander acts and orders the removal and stowage of the item. Case closed.
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1SG (Join to see)
SSG Brian G. you lack the experience and training to explain how it works, real world, to me.
Here is how it works real world.
PVT Burmiester displays a Confederate flag. His 1SG and CO are aware of it, and don't have an issue with it.
One evening, PVT Wright and PVT Burmiester drive around Fayetteville, and Burmeister murders two people.
CO and 1SG have hell to pay. Burmeister dies in Federal prison.
19 other Soldiers found to have supported like views were discharged.
That's real world.
Your belief as to what negatively impacts a unit is based on your training and experience. Likewise, mine is based on experience as a SL, DS, PSG, ANCOC SGL, EO Rep, and 1SG.
I haven't forgotten how to interpret AR 600-20, and I still disagree with your opinion.
Here is how it works real world.
PVT Burmiester displays a Confederate flag. His 1SG and CO are aware of it, and don't have an issue with it.
One evening, PVT Wright and PVT Burmiester drive around Fayetteville, and Burmeister murders two people.
CO and 1SG have hell to pay. Burmeister dies in Federal prison.
19 other Soldiers found to have supported like views were discharged.
That's real world.
Your belief as to what negatively impacts a unit is based on your training and experience. Likewise, mine is based on experience as a SL, DS, PSG, ANCOC SGL, EO Rep, and 1SG.
I haven't forgotten how to interpret AR 600-20, and I still disagree with your opinion.
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SSG Brian G.
Oh you are a riot @1SG (Anonymous) I just explained REAL WORLD how it works. You just have an issue with your personal opinion gumming up the thing between your ears. Cute blocking a person when you can't handle the conversation or reality.
Wrong. Wong. and WRONG. That Confederate flag had zip and squat to do with what that Pvt did. It is a FLAG. Period. Full stop. Not a representation of the KKK or any other extremist group.
Wrong. Wong. and WRONG. That Confederate flag had zip and squat to do with what that Pvt did. It is a FLAG. Period. Full stop. Not a representation of the KKK or any other extremist group.
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If it is found go for due justice and investigate. If known to be attached to or affiliated with these groups then seperate with a no reenlist code on the DD-214 (if service is honorable). HOWEVER, just being affiliated with them is no crime so no other than honorable is warranted. Displaying a flag or a symbol is no crime, not good for morale and probably not the right thing to do but it isn't a crime. Other than honorable condtions are for crimes against the UCMJ and currently there is no statute in the ucmj for any of the above. BUT... you could probably attach Art 82 Conspiracy, Art 117 Provoking speeches or gestures, Art 134-12-Disloyal Statements if you stretched is far enough. Usually when outed if someone is affiliated it gets around and then the fights start etc and that is where you can get them withbeingprejudicial to good order and discipline. But until it is captured in the UCMJ you have to go other routes for dismissal...IMHO.
Maj Marty Hogan
Lt Col Charlie Brown
1stSgt Glenn Brackin
Cpl Craig Morton
SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
LTC Stephen C.
CPL Dave Hoover
PO3 Bob McCord
Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
Sgt Wayne Wood
PVT James Strait
SFC Jack Champion
MSgt David Hoffman
MSgt Stephen Council
SGT Elizabeth Scheck
PO1 H Gene Lawrence
Maj Marty Hogan
Lt Col Charlie Brown
1stSgt Glenn Brackin
Cpl Craig Morton
SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
LTC Stephen C.
CPL Dave Hoover
PO3 Bob McCord
Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
Sgt Wayne Wood
PVT James Strait
SFC Jack Champion
MSgt David Hoffman
MSgt Stephen Council
SGT Elizabeth Scheck
PO1 H Gene Lawrence
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Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
Slippery slope on the way to conduct unbecoming, but ultimately a decision made at a Court Martial.
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