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I refer to the pay grade instead of rank because I'd like to know how the other services feel regarding their most senior leaders.
When I was a junior soldier, a captain said something to me that I'll never forget. He said sergeants major are useless. He said there is nothing a sergeant major does that a master sergeant can't do.
Fast forward a couple years, and another officer tells me the same thing.
The majority of soldiers from every rank have expressed their discontent with the sergeant major. Most have no clue what he/she does.
It has been my ultimate goal to earn the rank of sergeant major however I now question what that title even means.
*stands at parade rest*
CPT Maurelli posted a Duffel Blog-inspired discussion about the need for sergeants major. Satire aside and EXCLUDING doctrinal answers, I respectfully ask the scariest question of all time: what do you do sergeant major?
When I was a junior soldier, a captain said something to me that I'll never forget. He said sergeants major are useless. He said there is nothing a sergeant major does that a master sergeant can't do.
Fast forward a couple years, and another officer tells me the same thing.
The majority of soldiers from every rank have expressed their discontent with the sergeant major. Most have no clue what he/she does.
It has been my ultimate goal to earn the rank of sergeant major however I now question what that title even means.
*stands at parade rest*
CPT Maurelli posted a Duffel Blog-inspired discussion about the need for sergeants major. Satire aside and EXCLUDING doctrinal answers, I respectfully ask the scariest question of all time: what do you do sergeant major?
Posted in these groups: 
Senior Leaders
Senior Leaders
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 87
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Could a Master Sergeant do my job? Yes, and sometimes they do stand in for me when I'm not around. But they aren't the Senior Enlisted Soldier either. So they could possibly get pushback from other E8s who they don't want to listen to. Normally this isn't the case, but sometimes.
What do we do? In the case of a CSM, we are the Senior Enlisted advisor the the Commander at BN level or above. We interact with the CDR on a regular basis, and take his/her intent to the Soldiers. He mentors the Soldiers in the unit, whether the individual is an Officer or Enlisted. The CSM only works of one person, the Commander.
Part of this 'advice' is how to deal with the Soldiers. Sometimes if a course of action will adversely effect them, I'll advise the Commander. Maybe he will change it, maybe he wont, but I will always tell the Commander what the pulse of his unit is from the Soldier point of view.
We are also the bulldog. We bluster, and direct, and yell sometimes so the Commander doesn't have to. If we show up first it's usually to let you know the Commander is coming and to make corrections so that he/she won't lose it if he/she sees something that annoys them. We make sure the standards are kept.
So, yes, I guess a Master Sergeant could do it... For that matter, if a Private could do some of these things it would make my job a lot easier.
What do we do? In the case of a CSM, we are the Senior Enlisted advisor the the Commander at BN level or above. We interact with the CDR on a regular basis, and take his/her intent to the Soldiers. He mentors the Soldiers in the unit, whether the individual is an Officer or Enlisted. The CSM only works of one person, the Commander.
Part of this 'advice' is how to deal with the Soldiers. Sometimes if a course of action will adversely effect them, I'll advise the Commander. Maybe he will change it, maybe he wont, but I will always tell the Commander what the pulse of his unit is from the Soldier point of view.
We are also the bulldog. We bluster, and direct, and yell sometimes so the Commander doesn't have to. If we show up first it's usually to let you know the Commander is coming and to make corrections so that he/she won't lose it if he/she sees something that annoys them. We make sure the standards are kept.
So, yes, I guess a Master Sergeant could do it... For that matter, if a Private could do some of these things it would make my job a lot easier.
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LCpl Darryl Samuel
A Sgt Major in the Marine Corps as far as on the Infantry Battalion level is as revered and respected by everyone in the command enlisted and officer alike. He is the expert in military customs,protocol,unit history, and traditions. I have witnessed our Bn Sgt Maj, tell a 1st Lt ",Lt be in my office at 1300. Beat me there Lt don't meet me there!! The !st Lt replied "yes Sgt Maj" I'd rather be a Sgt Maj, before anything less than Major given a choice.
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CPO Greg Frazho
The key words in that last sentence strike me as the most profound, Sgt. Major: "...if a Private could do some of these things, it would make my job a lot easier." That, to me, is the crux of the matter. Empowered service members are more likely to act like professionals and self-police rather than having the bad guy come around to do all the dirty work of on-the-spot corrections or other such things. ALL NCOs should be charged with enforcing standards, not just first sergeants and sergeants major.
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SSG Frank Devine
That is exactly the kind of response that makes a CSM what he/she is. The reference to Privates is spot on...as it would be for any enlisted rank.
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MSG (Join to see)
Well done CSM Heidke. I also like CPO Frazho point, "ALL NCOs should be charged with enforcing standards, not just first sergeants and sergeants major". The only thing I would like to add to that is remove should be and replace with are.
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
If you are asking where the rank comes from, it is a legacy 'Sargento mayor' which is also where we get the rank of Major. The rank was the second in command to the 'coronel' (see Colonel) and the overall commander of the unit. The Sargento mayor/Major of Sergeants was tasked with commanding the non-noble professional solders...the Sergeants. Later, the Major and Sergeant Major split as those who were noble born would become Majors and those common soldiers raising to their highest rank as Sergeant Major.
So to your original question, in a culture without a noble class 'Are O-4s needed?'
As a direct answer to your question, No, none of us are needed. If we didn't have E-9s, the E-8s would quickly fill the void until SPC Woods :) asked the question, 'Are E-8s needed?' Until PVT Woods finally stopped asking questions and we had a military where privates were the only rank and establishing a complex system of seniority among 'Private Citizens'
If you are asking where the rank comes from, it is a legacy 'Sargento mayor' which is also where we get the rank of Major. The rank was the second in command to the 'coronel' (see Colonel) and the overall commander of the unit. The Sargento mayor/Major of Sergeants was tasked with commanding the non-noble professional solders...the Sergeants. Later, the Major and Sergeant Major split as those who were noble born would become Majors and those common soldiers raising to their highest rank as Sergeant Major.
So to your original question, in a culture without a noble class 'Are O-4s needed?'
As a direct answer to your question, No, none of us are needed. If we didn't have E-9s, the E-8s would quickly fill the void until SPC Woods :) asked the question, 'Are E-8s needed?' Until PVT Woods finally stopped asking questions and we had a military where privates were the only rank and establishing a complex system of seniority among 'Private Citizens'
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SGM (Join to see)
SSG Woods....I'd give everyone a book or two but Amazon has control. You will definitely like Man onf the Floor! when it is done....
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MSG Brad Sand
SGM (Join to see)
While you are correct that not all knights were from the nobility, nor were all nobility knighted, the social divisions between knights and sergeants can be traced to the modern differences between Commissioned and Non-Commissioned officers. The knight as a military elite has connections back to the Ancient World but primarily, or at least our modern idea of the knight, the elite mounted cavalryman come from the post migration period of the Germanic tribes after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. As the cost of arm and armoring these heavy cavalry rose, so did their status. Additionally, these men became a part of the household of the ruling class and were provided land as rewards for service and as source of income to maintain themselves. These military servants became the lowest rung of the military caste, but clearly above those tied to the land (free or serf). While there were skilled artisans and merchant that formed what could be compared to a middle class the sergeants would arise from either classes…or all other classes. There was never the concept of the ‘Serf-Knight’ because the serfs would have been tied to the land. There were examples of low level knights being able to raise their station through superior performance. Additionally, as royal armies grew and, more importantly, became more specialized…see English longbow men…some freemen would become full time soldier in the house hold of the higher nobility. The religious military orders formed at the beginning of the Crusades created the blueprints for the later sergeants in these nobles. The Crusades did not affect the number of nobility in Western Europe any more than any other type of warfare in the period. In both case the nobility fare much better than the common soldiers. This is one of the many myths about the Crusades
While you are correct that not all knights were from the nobility, nor were all nobility knighted, the social divisions between knights and sergeants can be traced to the modern differences between Commissioned and Non-Commissioned officers. The knight as a military elite has connections back to the Ancient World but primarily, or at least our modern idea of the knight, the elite mounted cavalryman come from the post migration period of the Germanic tribes after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. As the cost of arm and armoring these heavy cavalry rose, so did their status. Additionally, these men became a part of the household of the ruling class and were provided land as rewards for service and as source of income to maintain themselves. These military servants became the lowest rung of the military caste, but clearly above those tied to the land (free or serf). While there were skilled artisans and merchant that formed what could be compared to a middle class the sergeants would arise from either classes…or all other classes. There was never the concept of the ‘Serf-Knight’ because the serfs would have been tied to the land. There were examples of low level knights being able to raise their station through superior performance. Additionally, as royal armies grew and, more importantly, became more specialized…see English longbow men…some freemen would become full time soldier in the house hold of the higher nobility. The religious military orders formed at the beginning of the Crusades created the blueprints for the later sergeants in these nobles. The Crusades did not affect the number of nobility in Western Europe any more than any other type of warfare in the period. In both case the nobility fare much better than the common soldiers. This is one of the many myths about the Crusades
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MSG Brad Sand
I will SGM. I am always willing to take a free copy :)
If you need help falling to sleep, you can read my article in the THE INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY for the Promotion of Scientific Research,
http://users.panola.com/AAGHS/military.html
If you need help falling to sleep, you can read my article in the THE INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY for the Promotion of Scientific Research,
http://users.panola.com/AAGHS/military.html
Religious Military Orders - by Brad A. Sand and Dr. Carl Edwin Lindgren
The conflict is rooted in the dispute over who would marry Lucia de Botrun, the heiress of Botrun. Raymond III of Tripoli had promised Gerard de Ridfort the hand of the first suitable heiress in his country. But when the lord of Botrun died a few months later, leaving his lands to his daughter Lucia, Raymond ignored Gerards claim and gave her to a rich Pisan named Plivano, who ungallantly put the girl on to a weighing-machine and offered the...
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IMHO....I've heard that complaint from many an officer. However, it's usually come from an officer that found themselves on the wrong end of something the E-9 brought to the fore. I've seen E-9's take on issues where officers were on the wrong path and the E-9 saw to it that the correct path was taken. There is a tremendous strength in having an E-9 in the COC to keep all concerned on the correct path. Most E-8/E-7's who attempt to make corrections where needed find themselves up against the wall with the threat of "I write your annual evals!". Having an E-9 eliminates that threat completely.
The flip side of the coin is an E-9 that is a ROAD (Retired On Active Duty) scholar that has no one but themselves and their next golf outing on their mind.
For me, I WANT that E-9 in the command. They bring knowledge, experience and understanding of what it's like for the enlisted - something most officers who go thru the academies don't have a clue about.
The flip side of the coin is an E-9 that is a ROAD (Retired On Active Duty) scholar that has no one but themselves and their next golf outing on their mind.
For me, I WANT that E-9 in the command. They bring knowledge, experience and understanding of what it's like for the enlisted - something most officers who go thru the academies don't have a clue about.
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LCDR (Join to see)
I believe they are absolutely necessary. There may be a few on ROAD, but there are E7s and E8s in the same category. As far as the Navy is concerned, MCPOs provide an invaluable service to every command that won't be found elsewhere. As a prior Chief, I disagree with your comment that E7/8 find themselves in a corner with eval threats. I never found myself in that position. Maybe I have only served with professionals though.
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PO1 (Join to see)
With the exception of the E-7's being threatened we agree 100%. If I had not heard the comments myself on the bridge, in the Cheng's stateroom, etc., I would not make the statements. Second-hand accounts I would not publish or claim, only those I hear myself. It happens. No one can honestly say how they will react to such a threat until it is done unto them, no matter how brave the recipient claims to be. These days one single crappy eval created by a vengeful XO or Department head will ruin a career forever. I've seen the threat used by multiple officers - all with the sole intent of getting their personal agenda pushed forward without hindrance of a true need or professional military requirement.
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CPT (Join to see)
O's never get a break. Just you know it was a E that asked this. My hands are clean.
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PO1 (Join to see)
Sure O's get a break....they get to commit all sorts of crimes and then are allowed to "quietly retire"...... Don't know about you...but that sure sounds like one hell of a break to me!
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SSG V. Michelle Woods The only appropriate response to that question would go something like this:
SSG Woods: "Sergeant Major, what do you do?"
SGM: "Sergeant Major shit Staff Sergeant. Go away"
Any other response would useless, as by definition, E-9s (pick a service) are the absolute problem solvers, with more clout than any other group-kind of like a mafia, but for good and to ensure that stuff gets done.
They are a necessity. Any career enlisted should strive to get there, very few will.
SSG Woods: "Sergeant Major, what do you do?"
SGM: "Sergeant Major shit Staff Sergeant. Go away"
Any other response would useless, as by definition, E-9s (pick a service) are the absolute problem solvers, with more clout than any other group-kind of like a mafia, but for good and to ensure that stuff gets done.
They are a necessity. Any career enlisted should strive to get there, very few will.
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CMSgt James Nolan
MSgt Kevin Willoughby Depending on how long ago you retired, I would tell you that there is a world of difference between the pre-2000 guard/reserve and the current guard/reserve. The guard/reserve used to be fairly isolated, not so much any more. And, I would say that you are likely correct in that he may have had a not so stellar Chief. I have seen crappy Chiefs as well (on Active, in the Guard and in the Reserves) but they were anomalies and not the norm. The bulk of the "E-9" corps that I have encountered in my career have been solid.
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SSG Selwyn Bodley
I have to say... although I know the question wasn't asked disrespectfully... I find myself cringing even as I read it; just waiting for but chewing that would followl I think the only safe place to ask a question like this is on a network like this. With all of my interactions with Infantry CSM's, I have no doubt that a question like this, in person, would at best, be responded to in the manner that CMSgt James Nolan responded along with some physical exercise that ensured I understood exactly what he does.
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CMSgt James Nolan
SSG Cody Sedlacek if you read the response, you would (I hope) have picked up on the combo of sarcasm/wit-followed by the actual response.
I personally do feel a true need for that position. They really can get things done that nobody else really can-at least the ones that I have worked with.
I personally do feel a true need for that position. They really can get things done that nobody else really can-at least the ones that I have worked with.
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TSgt Donnie Meaders
Absolutely! If you want to question that, then realistically you could question any rank/position and job specialty. There was a need seen for that rank and many great folks have held that rank and done great jobs in their assigned duties.
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CPT (Join to see)
SSG V. Michelle Woods If you're going to call out the bull you better be ready for the horns.
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SSG Woods...have you ever been Supernumery of the Guard Mount? Or found a really good Concierge who can get anything done or show you how it's done? In a way that is what a Sgt Major is supposed to be. The most knowledgeable, sharply uniformed, physically fit, epitome of a soldier in your unit that others can aspire to become. Now I can't say I lived up to that every day, but I will lay my achievements against my peers any evening. The trouble is, it's just as tough to find an all-around, all-american staff sergeant as it is to find that quality in a Sgt Major from whence they come. The faster the op tempo, and the more people like you get out, the faster someone who should have never been promoted moves up with less time in grade, less time in service, sometimes just to fill a branch quota and keep the balance sheet full because we definitely need to fill the ranks. Happens during every war. We expand, we contract, good people get hurt in the shuffle and maybe even killed. Some worthy people also get to move up, which is the point. I set my goal like you did and achieved everything I set out to do despite a whole lotta obstacles, including some pretty pathetic human beings senior to me. I resolve not ever to be like them. Thanks to some very enlightened leaders it all came true. And it can come true for you, too. Just keep your expectations realistic; separate SgtMajMan or SgtMajWoman from the myth. Ignore those fellows who've been all that they could be when they left high school. They'll just drag you down. Set your compass to the right thing and go forward. You will stumble. People will fall in your path. Some will also rise to the occasion.
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SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS
SGM (Join to see) SGM, One only need to read your comments to understand and embrace the need for SGMs and CSMs. GREAT COMMENTARY!
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SGM (Join to see)
SFC Finck, you a very kind. I like to point out that I represent the minimum standard...the trick is to exceed it.
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SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS
SGM (Join to see) I am keeping that statement for use later. Thank you.
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Think about it. E-9's have a diverse background and network just like everyone else. The difference is amount of time in service and are a living link to resources and assets that should not be forgotten. Hell yeah E-9's are needed.
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Very bold question SSG V. Michelle Woods! I'm on the fence as I have seen some CSMs worth their salt as well as some less than useful ones. The one's I felt did a good job would hold 1SG meetings, E-8 NCO professional development and got involved with running Bn & Bde formations for changes of command and pass in reviews. They treated Os and Es with respect and served as a knowledge base for the unit. Others, well they had their quirks but they all seemed to have one trait in common - they demanded respect solely for their rank and made every effort to debase Os.
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MSG Reid Stone
Had a SGM make people do push-ups on two different occasions for calling me MSG instead of SGT (E8 with 13 yrs TIG). He is also one who thinks he knows more than anyone else about their job. And yes he is a GS employee, the worst E9's! No mentoring from him or the CSM.
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SGM (Join to see)
MSG Stone, the problem with rank is all you know from looking at it is that they MET the minimum standard. How they carry themselves from then on determines whether or not they EXCEEDED it. Someone has to set the minimum standard. Looks like you found it for his crop.
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MSG Reid Stone
Great point, SGM. Had not looked at the issue that way, would also explain why that SGM does not want to be a CSM.
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MSG (Join to see)
i have seen the same, new to unit sgm in his office closed doors, i never once saw him in the 11 months i was there, then there were the the flag pole gator riding sgm's while in iraq, rtb for resupply, hot chow, then head back to jss, correcting us for our appearence after a 10 hour patrol, but i also had a smg in one of my units that promoted history, of the nco creed, dinnig out, pride in the nco corps, i was ssg(p) and assigned by him as field fsg, it was an honor then and still is, he truelly cared for all his troops
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