Posted on Feb 23, 2015
Are marksmanship badges just like diamonds and are forever?
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I have seen a discussion about the wear of marksmanship badges. I might have a different perspective of this. Regulation states:
AR 600-8-22
8–47. U.S. Army Basic Marksmanship Qualification Badges a. A basic marksmanship qualification badge is awarded to indicate the degree in which an individual, military or civilian, has qualified in a prescribed record course and an appropriate bar is furnished to denote each weapon with which he or she qualified.
DA Pam 350-38
11-c. AC table of distribution and allowances (TDA) units with personnel assigned individual weapons will qualify semi-annually.
My take on this is if you are required to qualify every six months and have not you are not longer qualified with that weapon system. Hence, you can't deploy our do many other things with that. If you let this time lapse you are past your required time. So you would no longer be qualified. In 8-47 it states "to denote each weapon with which he or she is qualified." As I stated if I qualified with a M9 in Basic Training over 14 years ago, which I did, I am no longer qualified since I have never refired M9. But if so would you still wear it since that was reflecting your last qualification? Should it be your current, or most recent active qualification?
Do marksmanship badges last forever? Shouldn't we all be wearing our grenade qualification badge from when we qualified in basic training? Keep in mind that your qual will drop off your record after 2 years.
AR 600-8-22
8–47. U.S. Army Basic Marksmanship Qualification Badges a. A basic marksmanship qualification badge is awarded to indicate the degree in which an individual, military or civilian, has qualified in a prescribed record course and an appropriate bar is furnished to denote each weapon with which he or she qualified.
DA Pam 350-38
11-c. AC table of distribution and allowances (TDA) units with personnel assigned individual weapons will qualify semi-annually.
My take on this is if you are required to qualify every six months and have not you are not longer qualified with that weapon system. Hence, you can't deploy our do many other things with that. If you let this time lapse you are past your required time. So you would no longer be qualified. In 8-47 it states "to denote each weapon with which he or she is qualified." As I stated if I qualified with a M9 in Basic Training over 14 years ago, which I did, I am no longer qualified since I have never refired M9. But if so would you still wear it since that was reflecting your last qualification? Should it be your current, or most recent active qualification?
Do marksmanship badges last forever? Shouldn't we all be wearing our grenade qualification badge from when we qualified in basic training? Keep in mind that your qual will drop off your record after 2 years.
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Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 31
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Cpl (Join to see)
It's always been understood that a Marine Marksman (pizza box) is still equivalent to an Army Expert. Just sayin'!
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1LT Rosa,
Your question and your discussion post imply two different things. I think the answer to your question (are marksmanship badges permanent or must be renewed) is:
- Your reading of the regulations is correct. Marksmanship badges must be consistently re earned.
- This makes marksmanship badges different from tabs such as Ranger and Sapper which are permanent but can be revoked by competent authority if the wearer commits illegal or unethical acts.
- This makes marksmanship badges similar to the APFT badge which must be re earned semiannually.
- I believe that badges such as Air Assault and senior/master parachutist are also permanent but can be revoked in the bearer commits illegal or unethical acts. Also, in the cases of these badges, there is a difference between being qualified (passing the course/meeting the requirements) and being current (having met the requirements recently within a specified duration of time).
Your question and your discussion post imply two different things. I think the answer to your question (are marksmanship badges permanent or must be renewed) is:
- Your reading of the regulations is correct. Marksmanship badges must be consistently re earned.
- This makes marksmanship badges different from tabs such as Ranger and Sapper which are permanent but can be revoked by competent authority if the wearer commits illegal or unethical acts.
- This makes marksmanship badges similar to the APFT badge which must be re earned semiannually.
- I believe that badges such as Air Assault and senior/master parachutist are also permanent but can be revoked in the bearer commits illegal or unethical acts. Also, in the cases of these badges, there is a difference between being qualified (passing the course/meeting the requirements) and being current (having met the requirements recently within a specified duration of time).
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CPT (Join to see)
I think the question does pose a different perspective than what was said but I concur with your line of thought. If you are not current with this weapon system you no longer warrant the badge. The badge itself is not a permanent badge with orders such as Airborne or Air Assault. I would put it in the same category as the APFT badge.
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MAJ (Join to see)
The exception to this is the Distinguished Rifle and Pistol Badges that are permanent awards earned by receiving 30 pts in Excellence in Competition matches. Soldiers can either earn a 10, 8, or 6 pt leg and may only shoot 4 matches a year, to include Interservice and the Nationals at Camp Perry. They are very difficult to earn and even more rare to earn both, or to become "double distinguished"
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Well, you're an officer now, so you don't wear your marksmanship badges.... ;o)
From my understanding weapon qual badges, you only wear it as long as you're qualified for the weapon. The badge you also wear changes with your score. IIRC only driver badges are permanent.
From my understanding weapon qual badges, you only wear it as long as you're qualified for the weapon. The badge you also wear changes with your score. IIRC only driver badges are permanent.
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CW3 Harvey K.
CPT (Join to see) - There has been much discussion here on RP re the "invented tradition" of officers not wearing their marksmanship qualification badges.
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SGT Kevin Dorsey
As a Veteran I am curious about wearing qualification Badges. I understand that you wear the last level Badge you qualified for at ETS.
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MSG Thomas Currie
1SG (Join to see) - -- My understanding throughout my career -- and still consistent with the current regulation -- is that a weapons qualification badge is valid until either you achieve a different qualification score with that weapon, or you fail to qualify with that weapon (either by firing an unqualified score or by not firing when required).
Like any other order. once the order for a badge and bar has been issued, that order remains valid until superseded by a later order (of course most units neglect to issue an order invalidating qualification badges for people who bolo or simply fail to show up for qualification).
As an example, and as consistently confirmed by my chain of command, I was entitled to wear the rifle bar on my Sharpshooter Badge and the Auto-Rifle bar (along with the Pistol bar) on my Expert Badge. I qualified expert with the pistol every year. I never had occasion to fire either rifle or auto-rifle qualification after the first time. IF I had been required to qualify again I would have needed to do so or lose the badge I had previously earned. I almost did have to qualify with the rifle once late in my career while assigned to a unit where no one was assigned any weapon - by one reading of the regulation we all should have been required to qualify with the "standard service rifle" but the commander had slightly better sense and ordered everyone to qualify with the individual weapon appropriate to their MOS, which for me and my team meant the pistol. We fired with one of the units we were responsible for supporting.
Like any other order. once the order for a badge and bar has been issued, that order remains valid until superseded by a later order (of course most units neglect to issue an order invalidating qualification badges for people who bolo or simply fail to show up for qualification).
As an example, and as consistently confirmed by my chain of command, I was entitled to wear the rifle bar on my Sharpshooter Badge and the Auto-Rifle bar (along with the Pistol bar) on my Expert Badge. I qualified expert with the pistol every year. I never had occasion to fire either rifle or auto-rifle qualification after the first time. IF I had been required to qualify again I would have needed to do so or lose the badge I had previously earned. I almost did have to qualify with the rifle once late in my career while assigned to a unit where no one was assigned any weapon - by one reading of the regulation we all should have been required to qualify with the "standard service rifle" but the commander had slightly better sense and ordered everyone to qualify with the individual weapon appropriate to their MOS, which for me and my team meant the pistol. We fired with one of the units we were responsible for supporting.
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CPT (Join to see)
Eric, see below:
AR 600-8-22
1-31 c.11 - "An award for previous marksmanship weapons qualification is revoked automatically whenever an individual, upon completion of firing a record course for which the previous award was made, has not attained the same qualification. In the event a badge is authorized for firing a limited or sub-caliber course, it is automatically revoked if a record service course is subsequently fired. If the bar, which is revoked automatically, is the only one authorized to be worn on the respective basic qualification badge, the award of the badge likewise is revoked automatically. An award once revoked will not be reinstated."
8-54 d. - "Permanent Orders are not required for award of the Marksmanship badges. Approval of marksmanship badges may be announced via memorandum, letter, roster, or other locally devised form."
Combined with the other regulatory guidance you identified, my read is:
1. Qualify with weapon, awarded badge.
2. Required to qualify again on a variable basis (semi-annually, annually, every three years depending on who you are).
3. New qualification either renews, changes, or revokes the awarded bar [badge].
By the published regulations, if you stop qualifying with that weapon for whatever reason, the last badge awarded would still be appropriate for wear, even 14 years later. As you mentioned, one really can't be considered qualified past two years. I think the regulation should be rewritten to reflect that.
Eric, see below:
AR 600-8-22
1-31 c.11 - "An award for previous marksmanship weapons qualification is revoked automatically whenever an individual, upon completion of firing a record course for which the previous award was made, has not attained the same qualification. In the event a badge is authorized for firing a limited or sub-caliber course, it is automatically revoked if a record service course is subsequently fired. If the bar, which is revoked automatically, is the only one authorized to be worn on the respective basic qualification badge, the award of the badge likewise is revoked automatically. An award once revoked will not be reinstated."
8-54 d. - "Permanent Orders are not required for award of the Marksmanship badges. Approval of marksmanship badges may be announced via memorandum, letter, roster, or other locally devised form."
Combined with the other regulatory guidance you identified, my read is:
1. Qualify with weapon, awarded badge.
2. Required to qualify again on a variable basis (semi-annually, annually, every three years depending on who you are).
3. New qualification either renews, changes, or revokes the awarded bar [badge].
By the published regulations, if you stop qualifying with that weapon for whatever reason, the last badge awarded would still be appropriate for wear, even 14 years later. As you mentioned, one really can't be considered qualified past two years. I think the regulation should be rewritten to reflect that.
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MSG David Rogers III
I have always read it this way as well. The AR 600-8-22 is and award regulation. A marksmanship badge is an award. You wear it until you attempt to re-qualify. The DA Pam 350-38 is a training regulation. Two different thing here. Yes, there is a requirement to re-qualify after a certain amount of time, but an award is an award.
"An award for previous marksmanship weapons qualification is revoked automatically whenever an individual, upon completion of firing a record course for which the previous award was made, has not attained the same qualification. "
It says nothing about being revoked after the time is up!
"An award for previous marksmanship weapons qualification is revoked automatically whenever an individual, upon completion of firing a record course for which the previous award was made, has not attained the same qualification. "
It says nothing about being revoked after the time is up!
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SGT (Join to see)
This is absolutely correct. DA Pam 350-38 directs how often qualification *should* occur. It *does not* direct what action(s) are taken if or when said qualification does not occur—but AR 600-8-22 does. The marksmanship bar/badge in question is authorized for wear until the soldier attempts requalification and fails to attain the same level of marksmanship, whether or not said requalification occurs within the timeframe indicated by DA Pam 350-38.
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CPT (Join to see)
Get more badges and you won't have to worry about wearing the marksmanship badge..Bahahahaha!
Get more badges and you won't have to worry about wearing the marksmanship badge..Bahahahaha!
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CW3 Harvey K.
CPT (Join to see) - I understand your last qualification firing an obsolete weapon e.g. the M-1, is considered a permanent award. I wouldn't swear to it, but i'm not about to search the regs to find out.
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CW2 (Join to see)
SGM, correct me if I'm wrong in the fact that enlisted soldiers will always wear their qualified marksmanship badge. Even one possesses enough other badges to fill all the spaces - i.e. myself. I possess a CAB, ABN, AASLT, Driver's badge -wheeled, and an expert carbine and pistol badge. Regulation states that only 5 badges may be worn on the ASU with only 3 of them being from Group 4, and Driver/Mechanic badges. So on my ASUs I can only wear the CAB, ABN, AASLT, and Marksmanship. And there is not space for the Driver's badge since I must wear the Marksmanship one.
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My DD214 still shows Expert in Rifle and Pistol and Sharpshooter with Grenade. Until I go back to the range and my qualification changes, that's what I would wear if I ever had to put my uniform back together again. I believe that makes them pretty much permanent.
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CPT (Join to see)
I just looked at mine from 2004 and it does have Expert Rifle. My last from Benning I got when I went there for training doesn't list one at all. But should it be for your current qualification status or do you think it is more of a permanent award that stays valid?
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SSG (Join to see)
I never considered the qualification to have an expiration date, however if I didn't make expert at the range I would wear Sharpshooter until I made it back and scored Expert again.
One of the qualifications that didn't make it onto my DD214 was crew served weapons. That one seemed to go away as soon as I reclassed. I loved firing the M3A1. :)
One of the qualifications that didn't make it onto my DD214 was crew served weapons. That one seemed to go away as soon as I reclassed. I loved firing the M3A1. :)
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SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
SSG (Join to see), yea my DD214 shows Expert in Rifle. I am in total agreement with your thread.
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CPL Douglas Chrysler
The DOD contacted me in 2015, 50 years after I was discharged so they could send me some of the medals I had earned. Among them was my same rifle qualification badge.
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Okay, so this is kind of off topic, but I have a question for all of you. The last time I went to the range, I grabbed on the coat tails of another unit and shot a 37. I was kind of pissed, because I didn't get another chance to fire. Understood, but I got off track already. Anyway, I know I shot a 37 because the unit gave me my target and I counted the holes in the black. I take it back to my unit and give it to my 1SG (per her instructions). About a week or so later, I noticed my ERB said 35 (what I shot last qual). I called my NCOIC and inquired...to make a long story short, my 1SG saw my target, decided it was incorrect and 're-graded' it giving me a 35. She did not keep my target. What, if anything, can I do?
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SSG Leonard J W.
SPC(P) Jay Heenan, the score may not yet have been updated. S1 shops are notoriously slow on occasion. For "future reference," ask to have a copy of your qualification record from the other unit...
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SPC(P) Jay Heenan
SSG Leonard J W.
I actually asked her (my 1SG) about my score and she is the one that told me that she 're-graded' it. It just so happens that this 're-grading' took me from expert to sharpshooter, which you realize the difference in promotion points...
You are correct, I should of taken the picture of the target (which had 37 clearly written on it), for my records. Life lessons...
I actually asked her (my 1SG) about my score and she is the one that told me that she 're-graded' it. It just so happens that this 're-grading' took me from expert to sharpshooter, which you realize the difference in promotion points...
You are correct, I should of taken the picture of the target (which had 37 clearly written on it), for my records. Life lessons...
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I read it as you do Sir, the only difference would be when working in TRADOC. Although I managed to qualify while working in TRADOC as well.
I was however recently schooled that I was incorrect for wearing the Rifle BAR when I qualified with an M4 which is a Carbine. Proves that anyone can be wrong. :)
I was however recently schooled that I was incorrect for wearing the Rifle BAR when I qualified with an M4 which is a Carbine. Proves that anyone can be wrong. :)
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CPT (Join to see)
I have heard that too but you should be rifleman and not a carbineman. I would still wear rifle.
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LTC Stephen C.
CPT (Join to see), the badge (more specifically the clasp) has nothing to do with duty position, but the weapon with which qualified, n'est–ce pas? ;)
SSG (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see)
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