Chaplains and non-combatant status

TSgt Joshua Copeland
Yeah I think the difference is because of history, nature of the service or both. Army Chaplains need(ed) to be close to the Soldiers fighting and dying in battle to give last rites, or spiritual comfort, etc. I don't think the same (need) is needed in the Air Force if that makes any sense. Not bashing the Air Force so hope you don't take it that way.

Good discussion on an under utilized resource.

CSM (Join to see), no bashing. Each service fights battles differently, otherwise we wouldn't be separate services! Rarely is a AF Chaplain going to be in a BUFF or Viper with a "Chappy" in the crew. Even our point end of the spear SOF folks, a Chaplain would likely do more harm then good.

If I may interject here, in reference to the 10 Commandments, and specifically Number 6. Man has shortened GOD's word and its meaning. what many have learned as "Thou shalt not kill" is wrong no matter what version you read it out of. Return to the Greek and Aramaic transcripts you will find that a more proper translation of GOD's words are "Thou shall Commit no Murder" Defending yourself, your family and your home from those who wish to kill you is not murder. Fir this reason. many of Jesus's disciples left the pulpit and fought to protect the country during the Revolutionary War. Peter Muhlenberg was one such man of GOD.

"It was Sunday morning early in the year 1776. In the church where Pastor Muhlenberg preached, it was a regular service for his congregation, but a quite different affair for Muhlenberg himself. Muhlenberg's text for the day was Ecclesiastes 3 where it explains, 'To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven; a time to be born, and a time to die, a time to plant, and a time to pluck what is planted...'"
"Coming to the end of his sermon, Peter Muhlenberg turned to his congregation and said, 'In the language of the holy writ, there was a time for all things, a time to preach and a time to pray, but those times have passed away.' As those assembled looked on, Pastor Muhlenberg declared, 'There is a time to fight, and that time is now coming!' Muhlenberg then proceeded to remove his robes revealing, to the shock of his congregation, a military uniform."
"Marching to the back of the church he declared, 'Who among you is with me?' On that day 300 men from his church stood up and joined Peter Muhlenberg. They eventually became the 8th Virginia Brigade fighting for liberty."
"Frederick Muhlenberg, Peter's brother, was against Peter's level of involvement in the war. Peter responded to Frederick writing, 'I am a Clergyman it is true, but I am a member of the Society as well as the poorest Layman, and my Liberty is as dear to me as any man, shall I then sit still and enjoy myself at Home when the best Blood of the Covenant is spilling? ...So far am I from thinking that I act wrong, I am convinced it is my duty to do so and duly I owe to God and my country."

This is where the Black Robed Regiment or the Black Robe Brigade as the British Loyalist called them, got its start and hundreds of other Pastors did the same to fight for our Republic. carrying a Bible in one hand and a Rifle in the other is not necessarily counter productive.

My experience has been that generally my assistants have been amongst the best soldiers in the unit; there are two glaring exceptions. One was weird and strange. The other was not amongst the best, he was the best, period.

CH (CPT) Heather Davis

I knew this was an issue for civilians in the private/public sector. I retired from the Navy long before social media; so I was not aware of what the environment currently is re this site.

So, bottom line to my point - it's not legal for a Chaplain to be armed in combat, but I can assure anyone potentially in this situation, that you know what I would do.

This falls, imho, under the Torah precept of "Pikuach Nefesh" or saving a life. This is such an important value in Judaism, that it transcends almost everything else.

I do get that "rules are rules"... to all of you out there ministering in uniform - stay safe...

LCDR Matlow:

Respectfully, I am working on my Ph.D. for Advance Studies in Behavior, and I always ask myself what is driving the behavior for the question.

Bottom Line Up Front, this is not a productive or mentoring conversation. Everything Chaplains do is governed by AR-165-1, these regulations provide clear and concise guidance and governs the Chaplains entire career.

After being CORRECTLY called out on my response, I should emphasize that I am ONLY talking about an EXTREME life or death situation.

In normal situations or anything less than an action which might result in a CMOH (I am not advocating acting for a medal, but that we all know what type of action this is), one should NOT violate 165 or any other regulation pertaining to conduct as a Chaplain or any other person in the military...

I have been reading this string very intently and finding the comments interesting. But I still must return to the rules and I do not mean the UCMJ since the pentagon seems to change it based on what is PC and what is not. By rules I mean those which are found in the Scriptures. Christ taught us "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." If that means picking up a M$ or M16 and wiping out a bunch of nasty's to protect a group of wounded GI's then the UCMJ goes out the window. The Military has been playing games with the ROE since Vietnam to cover the Brass's over padded posterior. Calley was just doing what he was ordered to do by Command. and then he was hung out to dry. the same goes for SEAL Chief Edward Gallagher and others who have been convicted for murder for killing terrorists and bombers in war zones. The UCMJ is no longer a Uniform Code and certainly no longer JUSTICE. It's only used to cover the Brass when they screw the pooch or to change when they feel the PC Police are breathing down their necks i.e. Article 125.

Sir, as a medical professional you understand the noncombatant status. However, it is applied to doctors and medics differently than it is applied to chaplains. The reality for me as a chaplain is that when the bullets start flying, I have another job to do… That's taking care of Soldiers who are wounded or dying. It is hard to imagine a scenario where I would have to pick up a weapon, but it that ever happened, there will be plenty of weapons laying around.

Chaplain Olson, your post reminds of the scene from "We Were Soldiers..." when CSM Plummer handed Joe Galloway an M16. Galloway protested saying that he was a non-combatant. CSM Plummer simply says "Ain't no such thing today". THAT is my take on the whole thing. For you and I, our primary job is not to pull the trigger. However, if the unthinkable were ever to happen, it really comes down to that Chaplains conscience on what he is going to do. Either way, it's not for me to judge.

And there ARE certain scenarios where I could see a chaplain picking up a rifle. One would be bad guys busting into an aid station you are ministering in and starting to shoot up the defenseless wounded patients.

Sounds like you had A good chaplain. I too love my personal weapons, but I reserve my use of them for the range.

Great pov sir. The main point is that the chaplain is out with the troops and not hiding in an office or chapel.

I've thought about this a lot. If my life or those I was serving were in significant danger, and I felt like I had to assist in the defense of myself and others I would. I can always find another job when the Chief of Chaplains fires me. I don't want to leave my wife with five young boys trying to raise them herself or having to remarry. My own personal opinion.

Chaplains are actually considered a big target by those dudes.

I couldn't agree more.

Agree completely.

However, the Corps does not have any chaplains, we borrow them from the Navy, for this very reason.

Sir under the Geneva Convention chaplains are classified Noncombatants and therefore once a noncombatant is armed he has become a combatant.
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/loac_2.htm

CH (CPT) Olson:

That is a NO GO!!!

SGT Jim Z., not entirely accruate. Medical personnel are now all armed (unlike in past wars) and are still issued Geneva Convention cards and are still considered non-combatants. The carrying of the weapon is not what classifies you as a combatant or non-combatant. It's the type of weapon and how it's employed. I carried an M16 my first tour and an M9 my second. They were there for me to defend myself and my patients if SHTF, not for me to go out on a patrol and take it to the bad guys.

The problem with Geneva, None of those who we have fought against since WWII have complied with it. Germany and Japan barely complied with it. In Korea, it was open season on Corpsmen. That red cross was nothing more than a Target. Do not even get me started about the atrocities in Vietnam and the rest of South East Asia. and now the whole Islamic-extremist is a fanatic who is ready to kill anything and everything including himself/herself for whatever reason.

Thanks for sharing TSGT Allen. With or without a weapon, it is only by God's grace that we stay alive!