Posted on Dec 22, 2015
Did the Army make a big mistake in leadership mentoring and should we take a step back?
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The following is a letter I'd like to get to SMA Dailey. What do you think?:
The army made a big mistake in doing away with the Specialists ranks above SPC4 - not everyone is a leader. During my career and I a guessing in yours as well, we've both seen soldiers put in leadership positions who didn't belong and because of it the mission might not have failed, but it wasn't completed to the best it could have been. I saw it constantly in my career where soldiers weren't taken care of, counseling wasn't done, NCOs went home early, soldiers left to complete a mission without the proper supervision. Why do these things happen? - because those in charge don't care enough, don't have the natural leadership traits, are thinking about their own self first, and the list goes on. These are not the traits of a good leader.
As a SSG I took over a 12B squad. In my first couple days with the squad I had every soldier in for an interview and did a formal counseling. This one SPC was a little scared to be "given a formal counseling" because his idea of it was something bad. I explained to him this was the army's way of letting the soldiers know what we as leaders expected from the troops. He was shocked - he told me his former SQD LDR had never had any kind of counseling with him and neither had his team leader - NOW I WAS SHOCKED! When I brought in my two team leaders (together), they both told me they'd received one counseling for their NCOER, but were never told to counsel their teams, it was as if counseling was just a hoop to jump. I ask how their team members were to know what was expected of them, I received looks, but no answers. This is a clear leadership problem, a leader who didn't know what he was doing.
Yes, I know you can use the above example as clearly a lack of duties and responsibilities from the top down, yes it is, but this was something I knew! I'd never really had that much leadership training, but I also knew if someone isn't clearly defined in their job, then how can you give them a negative rating?
My entire career has been Reserve, but I had also been in leadership positions in my civilian job. I have been a ranch foreman with the responsibility of approx 75 head of horse & mules. I was responsible for setting of multiple hunting camps, insuring everything was in ready for customers. I had several people working for me and I had to let them know what I expected of them because we worked alone much of the time.
As a kid in Boy Scouts I was made Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol leader, I never asked for it, but I was put in those jobs, maybe because I have an aggressive personality. Through school it was, "Dawson, take over here". Leadership positions have been thrust upon me my entire military career as well. Many times I didn't know what I was doing, but I understood how to lead, and this was the key.
Yes we can try to make leaders. We can send them to school we can tell them how to do things, and we can put them in training leadership positions, but ultimately it falls back on the natural leadership traits which good leader have. In 1995 I was deployed to OJE. While down range I was promoted to SFC. About half way through the deployment the unit Commander came to me and asked me to take over the SNCO position of the unit (held by an E8). I replied there were two more SFCs with so much more TIG/TIS than me, I was brand new, but the Commander came back with, yes, but you are a leader. The only way I took the position was I spoke with the two other SFCs and got their support, thus I took the job.
SMA, you've spent a lot of time on uniforms and such, but I really think the rank structure needs attention. Yes we got a lot of smart soldiers today, they know their jobs, but it takes a real leader to bring these soldiers together to get the job done. I was just on the "Rally Point" forum where a SSG brought up a question, "Should his whole squad get a UCMJ action because they failed to complete the mission?" I replied to the SSG, maybe he needs to relook his leadership skills because if the whole squad failed, then he failed as well.
We've got units today in which NCOs are the majority of enlisted. We tried the "green tab" but it got lost in the shuffle. What soldiers look at is the rank. If everyone is an NCO then where is the respect for the NCO leader? It's almost like giving a trophy to every kid, winner or loser just for showing up. With the cut backs in spending we need to be good stewards of our resources. Leaders are resources! Those who are leaders need to be hard stripes and put in those positions. Followers need to have the Specialists ranks or maybe "T" Sergeants, I believe this would take undue pressure from those non-leaders and let them focus better on their jobs. Just think SMA, what if you had a platoon of nothing but 1LTs?
The army made a big mistake in doing away with the Specialists ranks above SPC4 - not everyone is a leader. During my career and I a guessing in yours as well, we've both seen soldiers put in leadership positions who didn't belong and because of it the mission might not have failed, but it wasn't completed to the best it could have been. I saw it constantly in my career where soldiers weren't taken care of, counseling wasn't done, NCOs went home early, soldiers left to complete a mission without the proper supervision. Why do these things happen? - because those in charge don't care enough, don't have the natural leadership traits, are thinking about their own self first, and the list goes on. These are not the traits of a good leader.
As a SSG I took over a 12B squad. In my first couple days with the squad I had every soldier in for an interview and did a formal counseling. This one SPC was a little scared to be "given a formal counseling" because his idea of it was something bad. I explained to him this was the army's way of letting the soldiers know what we as leaders expected from the troops. He was shocked - he told me his former SQD LDR had never had any kind of counseling with him and neither had his team leader - NOW I WAS SHOCKED! When I brought in my two team leaders (together), they both told me they'd received one counseling for their NCOER, but were never told to counsel their teams, it was as if counseling was just a hoop to jump. I ask how their team members were to know what was expected of them, I received looks, but no answers. This is a clear leadership problem, a leader who didn't know what he was doing.
Yes, I know you can use the above example as clearly a lack of duties and responsibilities from the top down, yes it is, but this was something I knew! I'd never really had that much leadership training, but I also knew if someone isn't clearly defined in their job, then how can you give them a negative rating?
My entire career has been Reserve, but I had also been in leadership positions in my civilian job. I have been a ranch foreman with the responsibility of approx 75 head of horse & mules. I was responsible for setting of multiple hunting camps, insuring everything was in ready for customers. I had several people working for me and I had to let them know what I expected of them because we worked alone much of the time.
As a kid in Boy Scouts I was made Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol leader, I never asked for it, but I was put in those jobs, maybe because I have an aggressive personality. Through school it was, "Dawson, take over here". Leadership positions have been thrust upon me my entire military career as well. Many times I didn't know what I was doing, but I understood how to lead, and this was the key.
Yes we can try to make leaders. We can send them to school we can tell them how to do things, and we can put them in training leadership positions, but ultimately it falls back on the natural leadership traits which good leader have. In 1995 I was deployed to OJE. While down range I was promoted to SFC. About half way through the deployment the unit Commander came to me and asked me to take over the SNCO position of the unit (held by an E8). I replied there were two more SFCs with so much more TIG/TIS than me, I was brand new, but the Commander came back with, yes, but you are a leader. The only way I took the position was I spoke with the two other SFCs and got their support, thus I took the job.
SMA, you've spent a lot of time on uniforms and such, but I really think the rank structure needs attention. Yes we got a lot of smart soldiers today, they know their jobs, but it takes a real leader to bring these soldiers together to get the job done. I was just on the "Rally Point" forum where a SSG brought up a question, "Should his whole squad get a UCMJ action because they failed to complete the mission?" I replied to the SSG, maybe he needs to relook his leadership skills because if the whole squad failed, then he failed as well.
We've got units today in which NCOs are the majority of enlisted. We tried the "green tab" but it got lost in the shuffle. What soldiers look at is the rank. If everyone is an NCO then where is the respect for the NCO leader? It's almost like giving a trophy to every kid, winner or loser just for showing up. With the cut backs in spending we need to be good stewards of our resources. Leaders are resources! Those who are leaders need to be hard stripes and put in those positions. Followers need to have the Specialists ranks or maybe "T" Sergeants, I believe this would take undue pressure from those non-leaders and let them focus better on their jobs. Just think SMA, what if you had a platoon of nothing but 1LTs?
Posted in these groups: 
Leadership
Leadership
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 33
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SGM Mikel Dawson I totally agree with this. I have met numerous staff NCOs that had no business wearing hard stripes. They should have been SPC5-7 like they had back in the day.
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SPC Stacey Lowell
Well now, I don't feel so bad. I knew I was not necessarily leadership material, in particular after what happened following OJC in 1989. However, I was blessed to have been able to serve and no, not everyone can be an NCO or an officer. I wish I could have stayed in a wee while longer, but hey, those are the breaks. Best and Kindes Wishes to all who put the uniform on everyday and keep this country safe. Here is a definite thought: #BringbacktheDraft and have everyone serve in this army or other branch or some sort of national service for a couple of years. I think those who would would understand life from those who HAVE served.
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SFC Michael Long
Totally agree, but before you send this letter up you might want to proof read and use spell check etc etc.
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SrA (Join to see)
SPC Stacey Lowell - Congress would have to actually manage their money to put that many people through training. God forbid we actually would have to build more training camps! (That's sarcasm right there)
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1SG (Join to see)
I was a Spec-6 in the 70's and converted to SSG. Their argument was that anyone in a rank of E-5 or higher would nearly always have subordinates. My MOS was Medical Laboratory Specialists and at the time I didn't supervise anyone, just worked in my own little world. I was quite comfortable with that rank. Later I attended the leadership schools, BNOC and ANOC, and eventually made 1SG, but stripes are not necessary for every job in the military.
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I would actually advocate that we go the other way and bring back the seldom-used Corporal rank. When I was a young troop, I was given a machine gun crew as a Specialist, then a second one as a Corporal. Drilling and training those crews taught me a lot about what it took to be an NCO at the most basic level, and was the foundation for so much I did later in my career.
I would make an argument for more responsibility being pushed down, not less.
I would make an argument for more responsibility being pushed down, not less.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
1SG (Join to see) I have to agree, the CPl rank need to be used more as a leader grooming rank. It gives that sense of responsibility.
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1SG (Join to see)
SFC James Sczymanski, as was I, back in the day. But I still look back fondly on my time as a Corporal and how much that burned into me the sense of accountability for training my men.
I was an absolute surgeon (and still am, proud to say) with a machine gun. Any machine gun. M-240B, M-60, M-249... didn't matter. If I could spot it, I could hit it. But my Platoon Sergeant, SFC Weathers, told me something I will never forget: "it isn't how good you are, it is how good you make the others around you". In other words, it wasn't enough to be excellent at what I did. I had to build the ability to bring others up to that level, or even surpass it.
From then on, "Good enough" wasn't good enough anymore. And I have kept that edge ever since... nearly 20 years now.
I was an absolute surgeon (and still am, proud to say) with a machine gun. Any machine gun. M-240B, M-60, M-249... didn't matter. If I could spot it, I could hit it. But my Platoon Sergeant, SFC Weathers, told me something I will never forget: "it isn't how good you are, it is how good you make the others around you". In other words, it wasn't enough to be excellent at what I did. I had to build the ability to bring others up to that level, or even surpass it.
From then on, "Good enough" wasn't good enough anymore. And I have kept that edge ever since... nearly 20 years now.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
1SG (Join to see) - And what you felt, understood and carried on with is what a good leaders are. So many out there would have heard what your PS said, thought about it, but it wouldn't have hit home like it did with you.
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PFC (Join to see)
We have 3 corporals in my unit and they are just as bad. Mainly because they still get paid SPC pay so they just don't care
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I'd like to offer a counterpoint. The USMC doesn't have a Specialist track at all.
It's frankly a "foreign" concept to us. The first MCI we do is Fundamentals of Marine Corps Leadership, and EVERY PME set thereafter has a huge focus on Leadership Development, from Cpl's Course, Sgt's Course, SNCO Academy+.
We push "ownership" as far down as we can. Now, I realize a lot of this is scale based. The Army is so much larger than the USMC, it's not even funny. But, do you really need a Specialist? Couldn't everyone be Corporals, and then start focusing Leadership downward like we do?
It's frankly a "foreign" concept to us. The first MCI we do is Fundamentals of Marine Corps Leadership, and EVERY PME set thereafter has a huge focus on Leadership Development, from Cpl's Course, Sgt's Course, SNCO Academy+.
We push "ownership" as far down as we can. Now, I realize a lot of this is scale based. The Army is so much larger than the USMC, it's not even funny. But, do you really need a Specialist? Couldn't everyone be Corporals, and then start focusing Leadership downward like we do?
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MGySgt Erik Burks
I am a retired Marine Master Gunnery Sergeant, E-9 and everyone is trained to be a leader, as a Staff Sergeant I was a Platoon Commander, years later as a Master Gunnery Sergeant I was a Provost Marshal, a Lieutenant Colonel’s job, everyone can do their job and the job one or two levels above. The last Marine Standing could be a Corporal but the mission will be completed or everyone will die trying.
The fix the Army needs to adopt is simple don’t promote those who are not leaders, once the Solders 4 years are up, give them their DD214 and send them home to collect their G.I. Bill.
The fix the Army needs to adopt is simple don’t promote those who are not leaders, once the Solders 4 years are up, give them their DD214 and send them home to collect their G.I. Bill.
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MSG Dennis Lane
SGT (Join to see) - The units I was in had this as SOP. You can't lead people you partied with.
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Maj John Bell
MSG Dennis Lane - It was standard practice in my units that upon promotion to Corporal you were transferred at a minimum to a different company. Also Corporals and Sergeants had separate seating in the mess hall and NCO club.
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I agree with the notion of returning to a "specialist" ladder, with an option for a specialist to transition to NCO rank as long as effective leadership component can be demonstrated via school or on the job. Additionally, the Specialist rank level should be capped at E7 - based on my observation that if a SP8 or SP9 wasn't interested in doing something, there wasn't enough horsepower in the neighborhood to get interest generated. The up or out mentality should also go away since there are individuals who function well at one level and become failures at the next level (Peter Principal). The net result will be that a whole new (reinvented) bureaucracy will be required to manage the structure. Cost/benefit analysis will be needed.
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I think the senior Specialist ranks can hurt low density MOS's. I will use myself as an example.
I was promoted into a BN staff position as CBRN NCO and am about to get slotted as a BDE Staff CBRN NCO. These positions generally do not have much if any soldiers other then the NCO. The argument can be made that this is the perfect type of position for a SP6 or SP7 or T-Sgt ranks.
Now..will having a career in the "senior Specialist" pathway potentially harm my ability to get selected for a leadership hard-stripe position in a Chem Unit? Regardless of what NCOER's might say, will just the fact of being a SP6 or SP7 cause selection boards and personnel involved in slotting decisions to automatically think "not a leader" at first glance?
I was promoted into a BN staff position as CBRN NCO and am about to get slotted as a BDE Staff CBRN NCO. These positions generally do not have much if any soldiers other then the NCO. The argument can be made that this is the perfect type of position for a SP6 or SP7 or T-Sgt ranks.
Now..will having a career in the "senior Specialist" pathway potentially harm my ability to get selected for a leadership hard-stripe position in a Chem Unit? Regardless of what NCOER's might say, will just the fact of being a SP6 or SP7 cause selection boards and personnel involved in slotting decisions to automatically think "not a leader" at first glance?
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SGM Mikel Dawson
1SG (Join to see) Good question, good response. I would also have to refer to SP5 (Join to see) response, seeing how he has practical experience with the senior SPC ranks. Yet I'm guessing if a soldier wanted to stay in, gain the higher ranks, then there'd need to be a way for him/her to obtain a hard stripe.
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1SG (Join to see)
I understand that. My concern is that once a soldier is placed in that track, just being in that track may create a stigma that will - right or wrong - make it harder to get placed in a hard stripe leadership billet.
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MSG Dennis Lane
SPC Diego CDeBaca - That doesn't address the Army's concept that leadership is a valuable commodity. If SP7 gets the same compensation as SFC, but has no leadership responsibility, is that fair? I suppose there is the argument that the SP7 is paid for technical expertise. (I once observed a Colonel address a CW4 as "sir.")
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When I came to Fort Stewart on April 28 2012 as a brand new Squad leader, my Platoon Sergeant never mentored me nor counseled me and they don't care about Soldiers they, wait to when is almost time for COB to start tasking on thing that could be done hours ago. Like I'm going thru right now my Battalion CSM going thru NCO's records and try to QMP them instead of approached them and discuss a way to solve the issue. I have a SSG that he was supposed to go to Drill Sergeant School and PCS to Fort Jackson SC and he denied him to go to the School just because he had just one 3/4 NCOER for a Soldier that was Chaptered out of the military for patterns of misconduct that got arrested the day before his final out. In addition that SSG never got arrested neither a history of Domestic Violence nor Sexual Harrasment/Assault and now he is pending QMP just because the CSM decide to give him the boot disregarding the 16+ years the NCO has invested and deployed to 5 combat tours I just think it is unfair that this NCO has to go thru and been exposed to a hostile working environment.
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I honestly believe this will make things worse before they make them better. I understand i am cynical but i believe if you take 10 young soldiers and say do you want to keep doing the job your doing or be a leader responsible for others, the pay raise will be the same either way, most will choose to continue doing the job. If you don't want to be a leader, but you want to stay in the army, I think you should have to provide justification every few years as to why the army should retain you and why you deserve to be paid at a higher pay grade despite having no additional responsibility. that is they key thing everyone seems to forget. NCO's get paid more because they are expected to be responsible for more. if you cant handle it, then don't expect a pay rise.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
WO1 (Join to see) Good point. This is where MOS testing comes in. Will the Army go back to that? Guess I'm on the old school track?!!
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SGT Matthew Einsla
That's a real good point. Want the pay and benefits, you need the responsibilities that come with it.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I like the idea of giving some troops a career progression in a non-leadership venue. We do honestly do a terrible job of promoting individuals to the point of incompetency. I could make for a great team leader with my technical skills but be a terrible squad leader due to lack of emotional intelligence. I do agree with you though, for the SPC5-7 type system to work it would have to be limited like other grades, everyone in the platoon couldn't hang out and be SPC7's given X number of years.
We praise Warrant officers for their high degree of technical skill, this is because they are allowed to stay in a career field and develop a depth of knowledge. In the guard the difference between a good enlisted man and a warrant is Warrant Officer Candidate School.
We praise Warrant officers for their high degree of technical skill, this is because they are allowed to stay in a career field and develop a depth of knowledge. In the guard the difference between a good enlisted man and a warrant is Warrant Officer Candidate School.
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There were many times that I saw folks get promoted to Sergeant, only to continue to act like privates or specialists in that role. I also saw people getting promoted that should NEVER have been recommended for promotion, simply because they memorized BS for the board blew through their SSD1 by exploiting system bugs, and went to WLC. At no point did these people get promoted on the basis of how much they contribute to their jobs. These people didn't know anything about the aircraft, they were lazy and useless for maintenance, and they treated people like crap.
The promotion system is the problem. The MOS aptitude and leadership ability of a soldier is never tested.
The promotion system is the problem. The MOS aptitude and leadership ability of a soldier is never tested.
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MSG Dennis Lane
There is a mentality that a person who can do something well can teach others to do it well. There are two different skill sets at work. Here is a fine example of that.
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i agree 110% as the 1sg of a reserve med unit i found that the plt sgts and even the squad sgts had no idea about thier soldiers, there was no counselling for good or bad performance, ncoers were done "well you write up what you think and i'll sign it" this is not right, reserve ncos need to learned that this is not one weekend a moth two weeks a year its every day, one of the many reasons i retired early, "i want this but dont want to do that, it affects my civi time", when i retired i was actually asked to do my own retirement award, well i didnt, it not my place its commands place they didnt want todo the work. leadership is going above and beyound sacrificing personnel time to get the job done.
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1SG (Join to see)
The EER in reality is a joke. Any NCO that 'didn't walk on water' according to the evaluation, would not be promoted and his career was in jeopardy. As a result they were always over-inflated.
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That's why NCOERs are important as well as monthly and quarterly counseling, It's up to the senior NCO to mentor and consistently train his subordinates by having a hands on leadership role with his jr NCO's. Let them fail from time to time as a learning experience but always be available to provide the guidance to be a successful leader. I retired in 2012 and I had seen a lot of cases of plt sgts not spending the time necessary to provide purpose, direction and motivation, they assume their NCO's knew their job and allowed for inefficient leadership without effectively monitoring their professional development in the realm of leadership. Ultimately, senior leaders fail junior leaders by not training them to do the job and being actively engaged in their development, we have no one to blame but ourselves for the lack of leadership ability in our Jr ranks. Passing the buck isn't a option, fix it or move out of the way for someone who wants to develop leaders in their formation.
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