Posted on May 4, 2016
COL Sam Russell
94K
1.65K
842
42
42
0
52cdd408
DOD directive 1344.10 states:

-A member of the Armed Forces on active duty may:
4.1.1.3. Join a partisan or nonpartisan political club and attend its meetings when NOT in uniform, subject to the restrictions of subparagraph 4.1.2.4. (See DoD Instruction 1334.1 (Reference (c).)

From the article "Racism Within West Point"
http://www.inthearenafitness.com/index.php/racism-within-west-point
Edited 9 y ago
Avatar feed
Responses: 236
Votes
  • Newest
  • Oldest
  • Votes
COL Sam Russell
3
3
0
Edited 9 y ago
(3)
Comment
(0)
CPT Senior Instructor
CPT (Join to see)
9 y
CPT L S - Once again you are failing to see the issue here. You are seeing their sex, gender, and ethnicity. It has nothing to do with that. It isn't an EO thing. Your perspective is clouded by a false defense.

This is about a group of soldiers making a political statement in uniform. The uniform shouldn't be used to endorse any political actions or groups. You can promote heritage in uniform as we do already in the military. This is linked to the most recent events with Blacklivesmatter and the black panthers. This would be the same as having a Republican sign.

Also, your logic that you can claim to have pride in any area you want is flawed. The next time have your soldiers you should gather all the white males and take a picture with a sign that said "White Pride." If pride is pride you would be fine. But that is also inappropriate.

You need to view it from others perspectives instead of trying to champion some cause that shouldn't factor into how we perform our duties.
(2)
Reply
(0)
LTC Stephen Conway
LTC Stephen Conway
9 y
This is not 1932-1936 and Hitler's 1936 Olmpics is not 4 years away!. I am sure some of you saw this earlier https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/west-point-names-barracks-for-black-graduate-who-was-shunned
(1)
Reply
(0)
LTC Stephen Conway
LTC Stephen Conway
9 y
CPT (Join to see) - Listen to what Chris Rock says. there is some rascism by other than blacks but nothing from 1996 has changed and Chris Rock proves it. It is sadly black vs black..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRwK_XVfm0I
(0)
Reply
(0)
Marlene Hessler
Marlene Hessler
9 y
The perception of impropriety is the issue. West Point Grads aka OFFICERS are trained to be LEADERS. They are FAILING THE FIRST TEST OF LEADERSHIP by getting sidelined from their ob. THE JOB, THE ONLY JOB OF THE MILITARY, IS TO FIGHT AND WIN WARS. Something we have not done for some time. WIN. Sidelining the focus does nothing to change that. In fact, it endangers the troops that will be assigned to anyone that cannot or focus totally on the job they are chosen to do. It's not a personality contest. It's not a social situation. And, signing up signs away the right to an individual opinion.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC David Pratt
3
3
0
A bunch of black cadets showing support for a racial hate group, making a black lives matter fist. I would imagine this same question would not have been asked if it was a bunch of white men with blonde hair and blue eyes throwing out the nazi salute. You bet your ass their conduct is prejudice to good order and discipline. Looks like some young ladies need toe all some hours to get their head screwed on straight or find a new profession.
(3)
Comment
(0)
1px xxx
Suspended Profile
9 y
CPT Ahmed Faried - I was a police officer up until 2015 before going back to school to get my MBA and dealt with the black lives matter movement on numerous occasions, which is the biggest sham of a movement. Its individuals looking for an excuse to commit violence, lies, and chaos in society. I have also had police officers I know attacked by members of the black lives matter movement. As a black male I am disgusted with the organization and the hate they continue to spew as they provide nothing to society expect trying to make excuses for their bad behavior. These radical tactics that this organization represents are not appropriate in the military. If these cadets are found to have made a political statement they should not be allowed to commission and should be forced to pay back their tuition in full. There is no excuse for their actions as the BLM movement is a hateful organization that hurts the African American community.

These women are clearly incapable of leading if they cannot keep their political beliefs to themselves while in uniform. Discharge them, collect their money, and allow them to graduate from a lesser school.
SFC David Pratt
SFC David Pratt
9 y
CPT Ahmed Faried - Hate groups are exactly that: hate groups. It's hard to inspire subordinates when there is physical evidence of your support for a hate group.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC David Pratt
SFC David Pratt
9 y
PO1 Dave Martin - Well said
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Capt Tom Brown
3
3
0
COL Sam Russell The photo is obviously tail-twisting, deliberately dubious, and open to interpretation " make of it what you will" sort of thing, but there is nothing to clearly attach it to a political subject or banned activity. As Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen states there is obviously a unspoken subplot or message here about something. To answer your original question, although they may have meant to fool me, the pose immediately reminds me of 'black power' symbolism, "Black Lives Matter' symbolism, defiance of the establishment, defiance of the man, defiance of any authority, and in-your-face at the same time. All but one cadet has assumed a sour-puss, belligerent irked look. One cadet didn't get the word and is caught smiling. No one knows if that was the intent, as there is no message attached to the photo, no statement, and nothing from any confirmed source, only anonymous communications on Yik Yak at the Military Academy. (as reported by 'In the Arena' blog.)
(3)
Comment
(0)
2LT Army Medical Student
2LT (Join to see)
9 y
Sweet. Mother. I don't even know where to start. There's my white privilege giving people the benefit of the doubt. Now If only the pesky band aids could be darker to make people feel accepted by society.

1)My favorite line is that they are above rebuke by anyone who does not believe in what they are doing, effectively dismissing all criticism. Must be nice to live in that subsidized bubble of ignorance. I guess I am not allowed to interpret the pumped fist sign of "resistance in the face of violence." That's a good thing because "WHAT VIOLENCE?" would be my first question. The violence perpetuated by BLM about not receiving enough free things from the government? Or are you talking about the violence perpetuated by BLM based in proven false accusations of white police based in racism.

2) I am sorry USMA is the most difficult thing you did with you life. I truly hope that there is a wider breadth of experience awaiting you.

3) The fact that HBCUs exist is racism against other groups.

4) A swastika was originally a sign of favor in ancient communities. It's not socially acceptable to be flashing that around so the justification for the black panther fist doesn't fly either.

5) When I was at USMA, Protestors gutted and set on fire one of my classmates family's business.

6) It is not "being too black" to have a autobiography of a prior senator in your barracks room. I can think of 19.3 trillion other reasons why that is a bad choice though.

Here's some stats.

-15% of the population commits 70% of the crime
-1/3 black men go to prison for committing a crime
-AA Women are 300% more likely to commit a crime that a white woman
-Black married couples have a poverty rate in the single digits which is comparable to whites.

-the single motherhood rate in the black community has climbed to 72 percent in the last 40 years. Is America more Racist now than during the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/417899/it-isnt-legacy-slavery-caused-social-breakdown-ghetto-communities-thomas-sowell


I am going to get off here before the FBI shows up at my door. If my parking pass gets revoked I will update haha (I think that's funny, sorry)
(3)
Reply
(0)
SFC Victor Serrano
SFC Victor Serrano
9 y
I find the picture offensive..
(2)
Reply
(0)
TSgt Barron Lathers
TSgt Barron Lathers
9 y
I sorry but it's over and they had determine that it was not some form of statement. I have seen a lot of statements in my time to include the KKK burning a cross in front of a friends house and that's a statement which is offensive, but being a African American I learned to rise above the situation because I am a better person than the statement. It's time you let it go and find a real battle to fight.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
MSgt Daniel Harrison
3
3
0
Personally, I don't think they are making a political statement as much as they are simply showing unity to themselves and the corp.
(3)
Comment
(0)
SFC Victor Serrano
SFC Victor Serrano
9 y
LOL........
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
PO1 William "Chip" Nagel
3
3
0
Nope I see this as no more Political than holding up a copy of Captain Margie Turner's book on the Success of African Americans in the U.S. Military. I love it!
(3)
Comment
(0)
A1C Melissa Jackson
A1C Melissa Jackson
9 y
O. M. G.
I am SICK to death of hearing white males howl about being butt-hurt and offended when I do the same thing I am being "over sensitive"

Whine all you want fellas, but it (hopefully) will not change a single thing.
I am not even black, but my arm is creeping up now trying to give a fist salute. It is making it difficult to TYPE!!!!! SOMEBODY HELP ME SO I DONT BECOME RACIST AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE!!!!
(4)
Reply
(0)
SFC Victor Serrano
SFC Victor Serrano
9 y
I find it offensive because it's not the place, the time nor the right uniform to express political beliefs.
(1)
Reply
(0)
PO1 William "Chip" Nagel
PO1 William "Chip" Nagel
9 y
SFC Victor Serrano - At least you voice it correctly as an Opinion and as such I duly note it but to me raised in the community I was, I don't find it offensive and I like it.
(2)
Reply
(0)
LTC Stephen Conway
LTC Stephen Conway
9 y
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
MSgt Aerospace Propulsion
2
2
0
I really don't see anything wrong with this. What many fail to realize is that the whole BLM movement doesn't become racist until someone comes and labels it that way. True it starts off with the word "Black," it doesn't just symbolize that. Its calling for an end to all violent of people period. It just happens that it was started by some people of color, then funded by a wealthy non-white indivdual, which caused it to gain the momentum that it did.

This is offensive to folks for what reason? Not to mention if it doesn't affect you personally or isn't directed towards you why let it bother you? This is one of the main reasons we have the issues that we do in our great nation
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
2LT Chemical, Biological, Radiological & Nuclear Officer
2
2
0
Great photo!! These women did absolutely nothing wrong in my own personal opinion. People tend to automatically assume something is bad before they take the take to research the orgin of where it derived from. This fist has been used in America during dozens of movements representing unity, solidarity and supporting one another. I have good faith in the officials appointed over them, if what they did was so horrid and absolutely unexcusable than I'm sure they wouldn't have allowed these young women to graduate and Commission. I support the "Women's Rights Movement" (where they used this same hand gesture) and I whole heartedly support this. Congratulations to the graduating class of West Point cadets, and I have good faith that these beautiful young women will make outstanding Commissioned Officers.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
2LT Regulations And Discipline Officer
2
2
0
No. This is a photo that has been taken year after year. It is a tradition at West Point for the black females of the firstie class to take this picture before graduation. People are over reacting and taking things out of context
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
1SG Antonio Blount
2
2
0
The real question here is, is this a political statement they are making? Or is it the color of there skin that makes us jump to the conclussion because of the Black Lives movement? I've seen plenty of West Point photos of cadets clinching there fist but this one is the one making all the headlines. We have thousands of people who have voiced good and bad opinions. We have some serious issues going on in America and the world. Don't get me wrong, everyones opinion matters and I hope the thousands of people who made comments on this post votes.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
1SG Antonio Blount
2
2
0
2eb2b9eb
All hell didn't break loose
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
1SG Antonio Blount
2
2
0
C95e4d4c
So what does this picture say? What I see is a bunch proud cadets.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CW2 Multi Skill Maintenance Technician
2
2
0
The only problem I see, in this discussion, is how many people give a shit. Whoopity doo! We've seen rebel flags, Mexican banners, throwing duce's and everything else. What's the big deal here? I don't personally see a political statement? Perhaps in light of current events it wasn't the best decision to be made, but then I'm back to; why does anyone give a shit.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
TSgt Barron Lathers
2
2
0
Whether you like it or not the cadets have been cleared. An investigation was done and they have been cleared. Let get on with our lives and allow them to get on with their careers. You better believe they learned something value from this event.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Gary Edwards
2
2
0
Not at all! 1st, I see the picture and I see pride and success. Sure, we see what we want to see. However, I'd like everyone who views this photo negatively to think for a moment what it might be like to be in their shoes. Let's take off our biases, preconceived notions about how things should be and imagine for a moment what it would be like to be at West Point, and understand how things are in society in general. Now you're a black woman at West Point, formerly an all male institution. Now imagine being subjected to the same standards as every other cadet and at the same time being ridiculed about your hair, your color, hints that you only got there because you were a minority, some affirmative action program, and not because of academic excellence, high moral character and athletic achievement. On top of this add some sexual undertones, jokes and innuendos. I hope I'm having some impact, but I know there are those who will be ready to cast stones. I certainly wasn't there, and I'd like to believe these things never happen anywhere, but many of you know because you've seen and experienced it yourselves. If these young women were any other race there would be no discussion. I hope it is getting better for women in the military, but women of color have a few more unseen and unacknowledged obstacles to overcome and these women did that. Celebrate and join them in their achievement.
(2)
Comment
(0)
CW4 C-12 Pilot
CW4 (Join to see)
9 y
Seeing the world as it really is instead of how we hope it to be . . .
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1px xxx
Suspended Profile
There was no trial - only an administrative inquiry - no rules, regulations, or policies were violated - the matter is being dropped without penalty. Warmest Regards, Sandy

http://www.westpoint.edu/news/Shared%20Documents/Supt%20Letter.pdf
SSG Robert Webster
2
2
0
I would suggest that all participating in this discussion read the following in regard to the inquiry. The preliminary inquiry report - http://www.usma.edu/news/Shared%20Documents/Redacted%20Inquiry%20Results.pdf
The USMA Superintendent"s letter - http://www.westpoint.edu/news/Shared%20Documents/Supt%20Letter.pdf
The USMA news release - http://www.westpoint.edu/news/Shared%20Documents/WEST%20POINT%20PHOTO%20INQUIRY%20CLEARS%20CADETS.pdf
Then read the Army Times article - http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2016/05/10/west-point-cadet-photo-inappropriate-but-not-political/84196326/

Bottom line is that it was deemed inappropriate and some of the participants knew it to be inappropriate. What disturbs me about the comments is that the one cadet understood that it may be so, and stated to the group "this isn't an EO violation and we won't get in trouble for it." So one or more knew that this could easily be taken as a violation.

What further disturbs me after having read the inquiry that they made the statement that this was a gesture of "unity, solidarity, and pride", and the raised fist used for that reason, makes me wonder. Are the cadets of West Point are so closed off from current events in both the civilian and military communities, that these soon to be commissioned officers do not know or understand that their actions and statement/s are directly reflective of both the Civil Rights and LGBT movements?

Unfortunately I believe that the spin placed on this by the institution of the USMA, will be difficult for some (including myself) after reading the open report to believe that they (the cadets) did not understand the implication of their statement.
(2)
Comment
(0)
COL Sam Russell
COL Sam Russell
9 y
Appreciate the links to the inquiry and the Superintendent's letter.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
CW4 C-12 Pilot
2
2
0
The fact this is an issue outside USMA is in and of itself an issue. As LTG Caslen himself points out, cadets have shown the raised fist in many contexts in uniform in the past, so to single these ladies out for unique treatment would be disingenuous. In the end, proper outcome and a lesson these ladies and many others will never forget.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
COL Sam Russell
2
2
0
"As members of the Profession of Arms, we are held to a high standard, where our actions are constantly observed and scrutinized in the public domain. We all must understand that a symbol or gesture that one group of people may find harmless may offend others. As Army officers, we are not afforded the luxury of a lack of awareness of how we are perceived."
LTG Robert L. Caslen Jr., Superintendent, United States Military Academy.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/10/us/west-point-cadets-photo/index.html
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG UH-60 Helicopter Repairer
2
2
0
Ok I'm not supporting their actions but the KKK used the flags white males have on their vehicles, Why the blank are they allowed to fly them on Post? Many that fly that fly say it's heritage not hate, BS what heritage for me as a Black man does the flag mean? Honestly I don't care but it's the glag of all White Supremacist groups and KKK should be banned but it's defended to live on after all they done but it's about majority here.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Rudy Hawkins
2
2
0
Edited 9 y ago
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Robert White
2
2
0
One of the response is that these are kids and they should be forgiven. I on the other hand have a different opinion. They are OFFICERS, not kids. They are supposed to lead by example. And YES, people do make mistakes and we don't want to hold it against them for the rest of their lives, but we do it all the time. If these cadets were to get a BCD or an OTH discharge, it is held against them all their lives (if the take the OTH instead of a Court marshal, the discharge will never be upgraded). Do not try and excuse their actions based on youth. they spent 4 yrs at the Nationsl Premier Military Academy. If they don't know about "political correctness", then they should graduate. A person rises thru the ranks based upon merit, PC and friendships. One mistake as an officer usually ends a career.

Don't let these ladies off. Hold them accountable as you would any enlisted or officer.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Marlene Hessler
Marlene Hessler
9 y
Society is calling adults kids all the time any more. Our ancestors were adult in the early teens. We have arrested development and call adults in their mid 20s children now.

There will be negative repercussions from not holding these supposed LEADERS accountable for their actions.
(2)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
LTC Acquisition Intelligence
2
2
0
Sir, I don't believe these Cadets were making a political statement, and consequently, I don't think they violated the UCMJ. Demographically, the Corps of Cadets is only 14% female, and of that number, a very few are African-American. I don't believe these Cadets worked through four years of challenges to crap it away; I think they are too smart to do that.

I think the key lesson for the Cadets (and the Army, and America) is the power of Social Media, and how you need to be aware of not only what you are doing, and also how your organization and everyone else will perceive it.

(I am not tap-dancing, dodging the issue or crazy...I just don't believe these Cadets were making a BLM or Black-Panther Statement...For what it matters, I am also a conservative officer who worked at USMA for a few years).
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
MSgt Art Busch
2
2
0
The fact that this is even a question under consideration proves this is conduct unbecoming-at the least.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Battalion S2 Intelligence Ncoic
2
2
0
BLUF: If you have a political message, keep it out of uniform.

The answer is unequivocally "Yes." Whatever reason or motivations they had for doing what they did, they still violated UCMJ by making a political statement in uniform, as simple as that. When someone wears a uniform, they cease to speak for themselves as an individual, and instead represent EVERY SINGLE PERSON who is wearing that same uniform.

The public perception does not view them as individuals first, it does not identify them by their name, but by their uniform. Even in the title of this question, the first words that describe the people involved in this actions are "West Point." Whenever a soldier finds themselves on the wrong side of the law, it is always "A Fort Bliss soldier" this, and "A Fort Carson Soldier" that, not "Joe Snuffy." They represent us all.

As the cream of the crop, Officers, most especially those from West Point, must be held to the highest standard. If we allow this sort of blatant defiance of the rules to go unchecked, we accept this as the new standard.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
MAJ Engineer Officer
2
2
0
I believe if anything these cadets are violating the Army's EO policy. The USMA is supposed to be the premier military academy where the best and brightest are educated. This is a poor example of that education of Seniors are showing a lack of discipline.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
Sgt Patrick Carron
2
2
0
This is part of what is wrong with society these days. People pull crap like this, and then play the "I didn't know card" or "That isn't what I meant" kind of crap. These young officers will be sent throughout the world to lead our young men and women (sometimes into combat). We should expect more out of them than this. Do I think that this is a career ending move for them? Not at all. But do they need to be punished? I would state a firm "Yes" to that. With that being said, I hope that these young women have a long and successful career; but next time, please think before you post something!!
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Rollie Hubbard
2
2
0
Yes I do
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Rudy Hawkins
2
2
0
Reading some of the responses have me laughing...What if there was a few white cadets in there with their fist raised ??? Would it still be promoting Black Lives Matter or because they are all Black, it means it does. When I graduated from my Law Enforcement Academy, we all raised our fists in solidarity of finishing the academy...I guess that was for Black Lives Matter too ??? Why is it when something is done, be it by Blacks or Whites, the first thing that pops up is race-related comments. Until all people can look beyond color, there will always be racism and groups to protest them...I try to live my life looking at people as individuals, not as races. All Blacks aren't thugs, All whites aren't racists, and all Cops aren't Bad !!!!
(2)
Comment
(0)
SPC Rudy Hawkins
SPC Rudy Hawkins
9 y
2LT Tom Waters, JD - For the Class 0f 2016, there were 15,000 applicants of which 1150 started the school year. At West Point, there is no special program for women, they must endure and go thru everything male cadets go thru. It's human nature to bond with people who you can relate with you. Yes...they are all Black, Yes...they are All female and I think they were celebrating that and the solidarity with each other that got them thru 4 hard and tedious years at West Point !! Getting in there was just a start of a four year battle for them, which they adapted, overcame, and finished !!! I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill !!!!
(1)
Reply
(0)
CW4 C-12 Pilot
CW4 (Join to see)
9 y
No raised fists, no hoodies, no driving nice cars, raised voices . . .
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
MAJ Rn
2
2
0
I wonder if they understand the magnitude of their offense? What particular reg are they violating and are all the "elements of the offense" present? It does seem wacky that these cadets get a pass on this when a respected general (Boykin) can get un-relenting flak for speaking at a church in uniform about what are his PERSONAL beliefs. I even recall a minor shitstorm when a compo 2 or 3 soldier went to downtown Columbia [near Ft Jackson] to show support to the Occupy Columbia squatters. She even spoke to media and voiced her approval.
Here unfortunately I think there are any number of things the clenched black power "fascist fist" salute could potentially represent. I think had these been white males making any kind of Sieg Heil stiff armed salute things would be much different. But if you hammer these women too harshly you likely face an EO accusation for bias bigotry against African American women. Was their intent that this picture be widely disseminated?
(2)
Comment
(0)
Marlene Hessler
Marlene Hessler
9 y
IF they are so stupid as to not comprehend the results of their actions, they sure as Hell don't rate the title LEADER or OFFICER. time to Get Real.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SCPO Investigator
2
2
0
Yeah, you're right, MSG (Join to see), there is a lot of tap dancing. There always is on issues like this if you stand on one side of the fence. My take is...If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you can bet your sweet bippy that it's a duck!!! For decades in this country, there have been two sets of rules for civil decorum in this country. The time has long since past when a whole bunch of somebodies need to stop dancing "around" the Sombrero!!!
(2)
Comment
(0)
PO2 Bob Paulson
PO2 Bob Paulson
9 y
They will get a pass because it would be considered racist to prosecute them.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.

How are you connected to the military?
  • Active Duty
  • Active Reserve / National Guard
  • Pre-Commission
  • Veteran / Retired
  • Civilian Supporter