Posted on Jan 21, 2016
Do you believe the divide between the civilian population and the military population is widening?
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I believe that the majority of Americans get their "information" about military life from two sources.
1) Hollywood, where exciting screen images and contorted relationships make for good entertainment, but have nothing do with real tactics, operations, strategy and leadership.
2) Vocal miscreants that were bounced from the military, who need to paint unrealistic picture that "explain" why it wasn't their fault that they were bounced.
1) Hollywood, where exciting screen images and contorted relationships make for good entertainment, but have nothing do with real tactics, operations, strategy and leadership.
2) Vocal miscreants that were bounced from the military, who need to paint unrealistic picture that "explain" why it wasn't their fault that they were bounced.
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Sgt Joe LaBranche
Kim Bolen RN CCM ACM - it's difficult for some veterans to readjust to fit in feel like a valued member of society due to giilt, shame, and wounds of the soul. I was that way for years until I reached out for help. People use to always tell me to get over it, but no one could tell me how. Everyone progresses at different rates. God bless and thank you for what you do, Kimberly Bolen!
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Maj John Bell
Bravo! Good point. I feel that many of my fellow employees think the company exists to pay them. The number one goal of any company is to make money for the owner(s). Good companies know that it is a balancing act between for things 1) Quality 2) Service 3) Price 4) Taking care of the employees. Too much or too little attention to anyone of these and the company fails.
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Maj John Bell
Kim Bolen RN CCM ACM - I'm confused. You raised the BS flag on my two points in the original posting. At least I think you did. I do think that the entertainment industry largely gets it wrong. On the war-fighting depictions, Hollywood has created unreal expectations of how "surgical" the military can be. On leadership depictions they often depict leadership as stupid or conniving.
Two of your comments lead me to believe you dislike an attitude you feel you get from veterans. 1)"...some believe that we civilians know nothing about the military complex. How shocking it was for them to find out that we did and actually they are better off now than this civilian. Some Veterans can not stand civilians and have an air of superiority about themselves." 2) Veterans do not trust anyone other than their brother or sisters in arms.
I'll agree that is true of some, but in my opinion that is an insignificant minority. Perhaps because of your efforts, you come into contact with more of that minority. Perhaps I because of my situation I under estimate the size of that group. But I do not believe that that the camaraderie that exists between brothers and sisters-at-arms indicates anything about how we feel about the civilian population. It is instinctual to feel a sense of identity with people of common experience. That is neither good or bad, it just is.
Two of your comments lead me to believe you dislike an attitude you feel you get from veterans. 1)"...some believe that we civilians know nothing about the military complex. How shocking it was for them to find out that we did and actually they are better off now than this civilian. Some Veterans can not stand civilians and have an air of superiority about themselves." 2) Veterans do not trust anyone other than their brother or sisters in arms.
I'll agree that is true of some, but in my opinion that is an insignificant minority. Perhaps because of your efforts, you come into contact with more of that minority. Perhaps I because of my situation I under estimate the size of that group. But I do not believe that that the camaraderie that exists between brothers and sisters-at-arms indicates anything about how we feel about the civilian population. It is instinctual to feel a sense of identity with people of common experience. That is neither good or bad, it just is.
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We're becoming "Foreigners" to Americans. Rather than being a reflection of Society, we are becoming outliers.
I'm not sure that I am phrasing this correctly, however I believe that if you look at the Military as a "Foreign Land" and Service Members as People who have requested to Immigrate to said Foreign Land. We go there, acclimate, and become Citizens. Then when return "Home" we are "different" than we were when we left. We sought new opportunities and we found them. We returned home for whatever reason, nostalgia, family, time, etc... but we're no longer part of the same Society.
CC: Capt Richard I P. 1LT William Clardy
I'm not sure that I am phrasing this correctly, however I believe that if you look at the Military as a "Foreign Land" and Service Members as People who have requested to Immigrate to said Foreign Land. We go there, acclimate, and become Citizens. Then when return "Home" we are "different" than we were when we left. We sought new opportunities and we found them. We returned home for whatever reason, nostalgia, family, time, etc... but we're no longer part of the same Society.
CC: Capt Richard I P. 1LT William Clardy
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1LT William Clardy
Are you saying that you feel more like a légionnaire étranger than a citizen soldier, Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS?
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Capt Richard I P.
Cincinnati are never the same as the other patricians again. Nor are Veterans the same as the other plebians. Even in Republics.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
1LT William Clardy I will always be a Citizen Soldier, though I may plow.. my sword will be close by my door, and there will be no rust...
That said, I did just pass the age where I am no longer eligible to join the Legion (39.5).
As CPT Jack Durish said, "stranger in a strange land" is apt. I'm not always comfortable at "home." But I don't think I was when I joined to begin with.
That said, I did just pass the age where I am no longer eligible to join the Legion (39.5).
As CPT Jack Durish said, "stranger in a strange land" is apt. I'm not always comfortable at "home." But I don't think I was when I joined to begin with.
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Sgt Joe LaBranche I'd say that it's widening because so few Americans serve these days. If you haven't had the experience, you don't understand it. The service members live and work on military bases where the don't have much contact with civilians and some of what they do have is negative. There in lies the problem.
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LTC Bink Romanick
Kim Bolen RN CCM ACM Of course they do. My point was that most who haven't had the military experience don't understand the military. The volunteer army has made us a professional army rather than athe citizen army of the draft era, when many shared the military experience.
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CPT Jack Durish
Capt Seid Waddell - You have more in common with those here on RP than you have with your own siblings? On RP are you the first child, middle child, or last child?
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Capt Seid Waddell
CPT Jack Durish, middle, but feeling more and more like the first every day. I got out before the internet was started, and it was a different world then. We still have some big brothers on here that have been out since before we ventured into space, who had been in the AAF in the brown shoe days.
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Unfortunately You are correct. Some Civilians like myself have noticed a greater divide between the veteran and the civilian, some of us are able to break down the barriers, but to be honest, Veterans do not trust anyone other than their brother or sisters in arms. So what is expected of the civilian? I have assisted 1392 veterans-to date- all on my dime and my time. Am I to walk away because of this divide?
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LTC Paul Labrador
Big step is to understand WHY vets don't trust civilians and find ways to rebuild that trust.
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Sgt Joe LaBranche
Kimberly Bolen, I appreciate what you have done for our veterans. I also hope that you continue supporting our veterans. The individual veteran has no control over how or what our military does or doesn't do. Once you are discharged you are no longer a concern of the military. Our military does nothing to try and educate the community on military culture or lifestyle. When veterans return home they see civilians going about their daily business, going off to the mall, movies, and restaurants, oblivious to the war or what the veteran has experienced. Please, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. These veterans need people like you.
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Kim Bolen RN CCM ACM
Capt, LTC and Sgt thank you for commenting, I appreciate your insight. It is very true that most of the population can not even imagine what you have seen, what your culture has been like and your absolutely correct that you can never un-see that which has been seen in shared horror. That bell can not be un-rung. Bonds are created because of that mutual experience. I do understand those bonds. As a Nurse, who knows Trauma Medicine, I know that those bonds are a lifetime as well, because you can not un see that which has been seen in mutual horror. LTC please explain why, I have been fortunate not to have experienced that mistrust, I do know that it is mutually obtainable. SGT The Military does have culture coarse's for both the veteran and the civilian, some are online, invite only, or through other organizations that explain the culture of the military. But Honestly, I can not explain the Culture of remaining Civilian population anymore. It appears to be generational and way beyond my comprehension unless I can say that the world has PTSD.
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Capt Seid Waddell
Kim Bolen RN CCM ACM, well said. I cannot understand much of civilian culture either, and haven't been able to since the hippies of the '60s introduced their toxic, drug laced culture into our society.
I am of the traditional culture that existed in the WWII era, and find that many in today's civilian culture have lost sight of the principles that made this country great.
I think that our military maintains that traditional culture though, and for that reason I am more at home here on RP than with most of the civilian culture of today.
I am of the traditional culture that existed in the WWII era, and find that many in today's civilian culture have lost sight of the principles that made this country great.
I think that our military maintains that traditional culture though, and for that reason I am more at home here on RP than with most of the civilian culture of today.
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I think the gulf between those who serve in the military and the larger civilian population is widening in the cities but staying the same in rural areas where more military personnel still come from Sgt Joe LaBranche
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CPT Jack Durish
The growing cultural chasm separating America's urban and rural areas would make for a great discussion in itself and, yes, I bet that if you studied service members hometown records that you'd find most are from rural areas. Many who watch Duck Dynasty must view it as though they were watching people on Mars.
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PO2 Mark Saffell
There is a movie out that I strongly recommend everyone watch. Its called Taking Chance...will make you cry I promise.
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Yes, I do... after 911, we often said... the Army (Marines, AF, Navy) were at war... not the United States. The last time the United States was at war, all in, was WWII. The gap widens daily.
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As a veteran I know I am different in many ways from my civilian contemporaries and I leave it at that. What would concern me would be that if we as veterans allow ourselves to become professional victims. I am reminded of the example of the frog. "If you drop a frog into a pan of boiling water he will hop out but if you put him in cold water and gradually turn up the heat he will boil to death." (This is a parable type story, not based upon actual personal experimentation in the event any congressional note takers are out there) . As we get told over and over that we are unique and therefore deserve special treatment there might be a tendency to develop that expectation. We deserve what we were promised, our uniqueness is a benefit, but to expect special treatment may tend to take away the most valuable aspect of our uniqueness if let to get out of hand and we cease to be unique. Not sure if that is clear but then it is the way I feel
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A divide is to be expected when we have a professional military force. There is less of a divide between civilians and civilian soldiers but there is still a divide. When the prevailing ethic is American society is that of individualism, personal freedom, and monetary gain that is not going to go well with the values of a professional soldier. The values of a professional soldier are duty, loyalty, and subordination to our cause and our superiors. Neither set of values is better but they don't translate between the worlds very well. If you're choosing to be a career soldier then you are agreeing to adopt the values of the profession and they don't mesh to well.
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A few thoughts to support the argument that the civilian population and the military population have a divide that is growing larger:
- Currently there are about 330 million Americans. There are about 3 million Americans who are/have served in the military (about 1%). In WWII there were about 100 million Americans with about 20 million serving in the military (20%). 1/8 US males (12.5%) fought in the Battle of Gettysburg alone in 1863.
- American society is not a warrior society. The US military is a warrior culture. It is easier to support a warrior class within a warrior society (Spartans, Apache, Zulu) than to support a warrior class within a non warrior society.
- America does not evenly support and enter the US military. The South, for example, supports and enters the US military at a far greater rate than the Northeast (New England States) or the West (CA, OR, WA).
- I don't have numbers but seems like military service is becoming more of a hereditary occupation (sons/daughters of service members more likely to serve in the military).
- The percentage of Congressman (Senate, House) with prior military experience is at its lowest that it has ever been. After WWII, I believe it was about 30%. Now it is about 5% but I don't have exact numbers.
- Being prior military is not a requisite to be POTUS but more recent Presidents have no or little military experience.
- Bottom line is that this growing divide is not good for either the civilian population or the military and does not bode well for the future.
- Currently there are about 330 million Americans. There are about 3 million Americans who are/have served in the military (about 1%). In WWII there were about 100 million Americans with about 20 million serving in the military (20%). 1/8 US males (12.5%) fought in the Battle of Gettysburg alone in 1863.
- American society is not a warrior society. The US military is a warrior culture. It is easier to support a warrior class within a warrior society (Spartans, Apache, Zulu) than to support a warrior class within a non warrior society.
- America does not evenly support and enter the US military. The South, for example, supports and enters the US military at a far greater rate than the Northeast (New England States) or the West (CA, OR, WA).
- I don't have numbers but seems like military service is becoming more of a hereditary occupation (sons/daughters of service members more likely to serve in the military).
- The percentage of Congressman (Senate, House) with prior military experience is at its lowest that it has ever been. After WWII, I believe it was about 30%. Now it is about 5% but I don't have exact numbers.
- Being prior military is not a requisite to be POTUS but more recent Presidents have no or little military experience.
- Bottom line is that this growing divide is not good for either the civilian population or the military and does not bode well for the future.
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MCPO Roger Collins
Either I am not understanding the basic question or not your answer. The idea of an AVF should help the division noted. I've travelled the globe for over 40 years and the division has dropped by a bunch since VN. There are some that may feel like we are different, but I'm betting it's a personal animosity toward veterans.
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COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM
MCPO Collins,
- Conscription/draft ensured the military was pulled from elements throughout society plus the military was larger. The all volunteer force is smaller and is not pulled from throughout society equally. This widens the divide and does not close it.
- The Vietnam War and post Vietnam society non support of the military compared to the support of the military now is a valid observation but is only one element or criteria that should be used in a "society/military divide" analysis. There are several other elements/criteria that I note in my post above.
- Along side the above bullet, I would argue that American society's support of the military is superficial at best. The superficial is appreciated (buy lunch, say thank you for your service) but American society writ large has not been asked to sacrifice directly since WWII. Go to any Memorial Day or Veteran's Day event today and they are pale images of what I saw in the 1980s.
- Conscription/draft ensured the military was pulled from elements throughout society plus the military was larger. The all volunteer force is smaller and is not pulled from throughout society equally. This widens the divide and does not close it.
- The Vietnam War and post Vietnam society non support of the military compared to the support of the military now is a valid observation but is only one element or criteria that should be used in a "society/military divide" analysis. There are several other elements/criteria that I note in my post above.
- Along side the above bullet, I would argue that American society's support of the military is superficial at best. The superficial is appreciated (buy lunch, say thank you for your service) but American society writ large has not been asked to sacrifice directly since WWII. Go to any Memorial Day or Veteran's Day event today and they are pale images of what I saw in the 1980s.
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MCPO Roger Collins
Agree that is some superficiality, but from where I sit and have sat, the divide was far greater than in the past between civilians and military. In this part of the country, all events mention our service members, and are respected by the general population. I have been stopped several times due to my license plate and had people want to talk to me because I am a VET. Perhaps where you and others are, that is not the case. If I did not feel welcome, my first instinct would be to choose another venue for retiring.
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When less than 1% serve, this is inevitable. It is one of the worst downsides of the all-volunteer force.
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Sgt Joe LaBranche
CPT Seid Waddell, the actual number is .45% of our population actually serve our country. Our government places a huge responsibility on those who do serve. Many military age individuals hear how the government turns their back on and betrayed our military personnel while in combat. Others say the government use the veterans as a scape goat, limting their benefits, reigning on promises to retiries, downplays their importance, while also declining proper wage increases. Once the veteran is discharged the government makes it extremely difficult to obtain the promised benefits! Young people don't trust our government to keep its promises.
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