Posted on Jan 14, 2014
Do you view those without a combat patch differently?
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Wanted to share this article because I thought it was interesting and really made me think about combat patches.
http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/the-combat-patch-binary-indicator-or-something-more
Any thoughts or comments?
http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/the-combat-patch-binary-indicator-or-something-more
Any thoughts or comments?
Posted in these groups: 
Combat Patch (SSI-FWTS)
Combat Patch (SSI-FWTS)
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 38
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This is going to change here in a bit when the wars stop. At my last job I had a LT working for me who had three years in the unit with no deployments because there was no opportunities. Normally if a see a senior CPT or SFC or above with no combat patch my first reaction is someone who shammed out. I know from experience there are case by case basis that they couldn't deploy. I have no respect for the people who avoided the deployments while I have Soldiers who spent 4 or more years deployed to pickup the slack.
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CW3 Kevin Storm
Part of the problem is for those who didn't deployed and tried, we see a lot of that in the Guard, wrong career field for the unit that is going over, wrong grade, wrong you name it. It was no fault of their own. I saw guys who made a big deal out of their Desert Storm who once units were getting called up for Iraq or Afghanistan, had bad backs, diabetes, high blood pressure, bad teeth, you name it they were broken. They just didn't want to go through it again, and I hate to say it the Guard is not the quickest at getting people out.
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SSgt Rob Millard
I spent 20 years in the Air Force during the "Cold War" era. I trained constantly as an S-4 in the command element of a 44 person Air Base Defense team. When Desert Shield happened, we were all prepared to go. However, being the first "combat environment" in 25 years, it was the Senior Officers and NCO's that replaced the requisite ranks just so they could have an actual deployment in their records. It got so stupid that we had Master Sergeants deploying as Riflemen! There were a lot of issues back then where post Viet Nam era leaders were suddenly desperate to deploy.
So is the person that deployed back then in some way more of a soldier than the person who trained to deploy constantly but just never received the call?
In today's military, I am sure that if you wanted to deploy, you certainly could. I had the honor of being a Department of the Air Force Police Officer and worked with today's Security Forces. They are constantly deploying and are without a doubt 10 times the "Warriors" that we were back then as Air Force Security Police. I respect them greatly for their service. However, I have the same respect for the "Cold War" era soldier who was ready but never went. Just my 3 cents.
So is the person that deployed back then in some way more of a soldier than the person who trained to deploy constantly but just never received the call?
In today's military, I am sure that if you wanted to deploy, you certainly could. I had the honor of being a Department of the Air Force Police Officer and worked with today's Security Forces. They are constantly deploying and are without a doubt 10 times the "Warriors" that we were back then as Air Force Security Police. I respect them greatly for their service. However, I have the same respect for the "Cold War" era soldier who was ready but never went. Just my 3 cents.
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I think it is really more of a situation that may arrive with certain military occupations. If I went to my S-1 and the NCOIC didn't have a combat patch I wouldn't really care. That job whether it be stateside or deployed doesn't change much. I am sure there would be additional responsibilities that one would undertake while deployed in such a role but it is not a deal breaker.
Within combat arms it is a deal breaker. I am such an example. When I commissioned I went to my company as the only PL with deployments and a CIB. I was treated notable different from the other PL's. This was expected. As soldiers want their leadership to be fully capable of leading them and the presence of a combat patch/CIB would signify that I have been in combat at least once. For this reason I make my soldiers wear their awards.
This gets even worse from Infantry officers with the "Tab Check." Infantry officers will often greet another and while shaking hands they will look as the officers left shoulder for a Ranger Tab. If their is not one there they will be viewed as somewhat inferior. A Infantry officer without a Tab will often find themselves in a staff position.
Within combat arms it is a deal breaker. I am such an example. When I commissioned I went to my company as the only PL with deployments and a CIB. I was treated notable different from the other PL's. This was expected. As soldiers want their leadership to be fully capable of leading them and the presence of a combat patch/CIB would signify that I have been in combat at least once. For this reason I make my soldiers wear their awards.
This gets even worse from Infantry officers with the "Tab Check." Infantry officers will often greet another and while shaking hands they will look as the officers left shoulder for a Ranger Tab. If their is not one there they will be viewed as somewhat inferior. A Infantry officer without a Tab will often find themselves in a staff position.
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<div>Full disclosure I only read the first few paragraphs of the article.</div><div><br></div><div>I for one look at someone differently if they have a slick sleeve. Not because I think they are any better or worse for not having deployed, I'm more interested in their story and maybe how they are "getting over". At least half the time I talk to someone with no patch (Field Grade and SR NCO, not you LT) they are "too cool for School" and don't wear it. The other half It's a guy who is in a MOS that doesn't deploy much and they have spent a lot of time in Korea, non patched deployments and / or lots of time in TDA jobs I wouldn't want.</div><div><br></div><div>The funny thing is a deployment has doesn't make you more competent and very few Soldiers have any say if they will deploy or not.</div>
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1SG (Join to see)
While I don't know if they were actually 92S's or not in 2004 when I deployed, we had a unit there with us that did our laundry. I say they are few and far between but they are utilized, or at least were in 2004-2005
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SFC Stephen Carden
I wonder why we continue to train L&B specialists when we alsways just let civilian contractors come in and do the work? L&B is not the only specialty around that we do that for either.
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I can't help but consider someone with a combat patch differently than slick sleevers. 0.1% of Americans have deployed into a combat zone. When you see the patch, you know that you have something in common. I can easily have a 30 minute conversation with anyone who has deployed because we all shared some of the same experiences.
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<font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Calibri">Another thing that I look at personally is for all of our
prior service soldiers that may have had previous deployments before switching
to the army, per AR 670-1 we are not allowed to wear a patch signifying that
service. I have numerous soldiers that are currently in my company that have prior
deployments. That is why I personally don’t read too much into the combat
patch. They are also given to the soldiers that never even the leave the base. I think that it is important to get to know them individually before we decide what their strengths and weaknesses are. That is our role as officers and SNCO’s.</font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font>
</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Calibri">Another thing that I look at personally is for all of our
prior service soldiers that may have had previous deployments before switching
to the army, per AR 670-1 we are not allowed to wear a patch signifying that
service. I have numerous soldiers that are currently in my company that have prior
deployments. That is why I personally don’t read too much into the combat
patch. They are also given to the soldiers that never even the leave the base. I think that it is important to get to know them individually before we decide what their strengths and weaknesses are. That is our role as officers and SNCO’s.</font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font>
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SFC James Rigdon
Fobit's in my opinion is degrading, I am a Senior Human resource Sergeant, not to say I haven't never left the "FOB" but my mission primarily in theater doesn't make me run around and shoot bad guys. I know for a fact that Casualty reporting is just asemotionally and mentally challenges. I know there are numerous Soldiers that have left the FOB and never even shot thier weapon what does that make them?
just my opinion though
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CW2 (Join to see)
I personally don't care if anyone calls me a FOBIT or not. I know what I have done. I did convoys every other day or 2 in Iraq as a SSG and I have sat on a FOB as a Warrant Officer. I have spent most of my time in RCP (Route Clearance Patrolling) units and "Some" of them will be the 1st to tell you that sitting on the FOB waiting on Rounds to hit you is not the best feeling. In FOB Shank in Afghanistan it is a once or twice a day routine. I have lost people out on the road and people that never left the FOB so looking down on what you call a "FOBIT" feel free... But I prefer to make sure people understand that FOB life is not like sitting in Kuwait or Qatar far from concern.
I have 4 different combats I can wear and I wear which ever one I feel like wearing that day.
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MSG (Join to see)
I tell my Privates that a FWSI (don't like "Combat Patch"=too misleading) just means you showed up for work, A combat Badge just means you showed up for work on a bad day. It is not an indicator of knowledge or performance.
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I generally use the "fighter pilot" analogy.
I view NCO's and Officers without combat patches as being fully trained pilots, but who only have simulator time. Those with patches are those who've actually got behind the stick and flown. One isn't necessarily better than the other, but there is a clear difference in the level of experience.
I view NCO's and Officers without combat patches as being fully trained pilots, but who only have simulator time. Those with patches are those who've actually got behind the stick and flown. One isn't necessarily better than the other, but there is a clear difference in the level of experience.
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SFC (Join to see)
I can agree with that mostly. We have all met some real idiots with combat patches and met competent NCO's or Officers without them though.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Agreed, which is why I caution against asumptions of competence. I don't feel competence should ever be assumed until demonstrated.
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If you have been in the Army since 2000 and you dont have a combat patch. What the hell were you doing? Where were you at? We have 2 wars for 10 years and you couldnt hit ONE deployment. Yeah im looking at you differently.
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG Goicoechea,
2 wars over TEN years each. People have been 2,3 and 4 times and a 79R can't make it there ONCE. Come on man. You don't come in a 79R.
To be honest I don't care what your MOS is. If you don't have a combat patch, just don't try to school me on how it is in Iraq or Afghan. Im just saying.
2 wars over TEN years each. People have been 2,3 and 4 times and a 79R can't make it there ONCE. Come on man. You don't come in a 79R.
To be honest I don't care what your MOS is. If you don't have a combat patch, just don't try to school me on how it is in Iraq or Afghan. Im just saying.
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SGT Chris Hill
SFC... Senior leaders like yourself should know more than most others that different parts of the army don't get sent to Afghanistan or Iraq. I've been in almost 9 years, I'm ADA and we don't get sent to those locations, we get sent to Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain etc. my first 4 years, I was in a BN that did rotations to Korea and back twice, same people just different commands. I have volunteered to go with CRAM to Afghanistan and even had to do an interview with our CSM, they didn't let me go bc I didn't shoot a minimum of 38 out of 40 at the range. Then, when I finally got out of that BN, went to another, I was supposed to "deploy" to Qatar, but then got orders for Korea again. It was not by any choice of mine, I'm barely heading to Kuwait soon. That's not even a real deployment in my eyes but it's the closest my mos gets. I've never been on profile, my pt score is always above 275, I have a good attitude and I lead my Soldiers wherever we gotta go. So it's not me avoiding deployment at all, it's just not happened for me yet. If you find a spot for me to replace a SSG in your unit, hell I'd deploy!
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SFC Stephen Carden
You couldn't deploy because you shot under 38 out of 40 at the range? As an ADA guy, I don't care how many targets you can hit with an M-4. I care if you can hit the inbound fighter or missile that is about to smoke my butt. However, I will grant you the point that there was no legitimate need for ADA in either Iraq or Afghanistan.
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I only look at senior leadership differently if they don't have one. The reason is how did they think that they can maintain good knowledge and understanding that you can't get from a book or FM. I did at first get very pissed but I realize some contributed differently. I only draw the line when they tell me how things are suppose to be yet they have never done it in combat real time.
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When I see a LTC or COL with a slick sleeve it does make me wonder how they managed to be in the Army for 15-20 years and never deploy. I am a guard/reservist and I have deployed 3 times in the past 10 years.
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MAJ Rene De La Rosa
MAJ Bruce Burch, sometimes medical issues get in the way. Of course, the other aspect is seeing a CPT with that same slick sleeve. How did they avoid the deployment train? I just think it’s humorous when they try to talk the game, yet never went across the pond. They also happen to lose face if they are in a position of leadership and are a toxic leader. It just doesn’t work.
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LTC (Join to see)
I can understand a slick sleeve CPT, especially in the guard/reserves. They got commissioned 4 years ago and the deployment pace as slowed dramatically since then. Also you are not deployable until you complete your initial branch qualification course and many guard/reserve guys have trouble getting that knocked out because of "funding" issues. However, LTC/COL, those guys have been around for at least 12-15 years and have had plenty of opportunity to get a deployment under their belt.
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Depends on if they are junior or senior. Junior officers and enlisted...no. Seniors...depends on their story. As time goes on we will see less and less combat patches. Our job now is one of readiness, responsiveness and training. I joined in 1995, when there were much fewer combat patches in the ranks. The 1st Gulf War was over and there were some patches rolling around, but not like today. The bottom line to me is that the job of leaders is to prepare their units for the next war. That war may make the last 13 years of COIN look like a joke. That's not taking anything away from those of us that have been to war 3-5 times. If we took veterans from the Civil War, WWI and WWII and brought them forward in time and told them stories about "our war", they'd likely laugh at us. God forbid, but the next war could be something like that. It's our job to build people up, not look at them differently because they don't have a patch, a CAB or a tab. That's a sign of weakness and insecurity on the part of a leader. My patch doesn't make me better than anyone. It is a burden, which compels me to pass the knowledge I have gained to others.
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