How do you feel about religious (yes, Christian) expression in the military?

This is so funny because I remember being issued / given a pocket bible in bootcamp. Everyone should be left to their own faith as long as members are seeking consult or it does not interfere in any way with your loyalty to your Oath. Personally I was absolutely shocked when I read an article stating that the AF had changed the Oath by leaving so help me God optional. No matter what anyone says our country was founded on Judaeo / Christian values and this is evident in our national monuments. So then the question becomes in this scenario to those taking the Oath whom do you serve? A man? That is a dangerous path to go down as history shows us.

As a retired 04, OEF Vet, Humanist this is just another example of theistic expression. My expectation is that is neither encourage /discourage this stuff. If they must, insist that they take place privately. We warriors need to be above board & do w/o the public sectarian expressions. The Nation holds its Officers & NCOs to the highest ethical standards. How could the public NOT THINK this is an USAFA/military institutional practice? But I have seen worse!

Well, this is interesting. I wound up bagging my commander during a "command leadership climate survey" for starting our commander's calls with a prayer. HE was a very evangelical Christian. I knew we had dozens of people in our squadron were NOT cool with it. I personally didn't care, but it simply didn't sit right with me that he should be evangelizing on company time.
And like that article stated, those who were uncomfortable with it had no choice. So AFTER the review AND getting his ass chewed by not only the group commander but the Wing King as well, he came back with this. Not a direct quote, but the gist of it remains pure.


Commander says at the NEXT commander's call. "Well, according to the climate survey just done, some people appear to be displeased with my starting commanders call with a prayer. So those of you who do not want to pray may leave the room before we start the prayer."

Now, wouldn't that just single out the whistle blowers? YEP, and their performance reports and awards and decs reflected that retaliation, but we simply couldn't PROVE it. Not to the IG's satisfaction at least.

Thankfully he was soon holding PCS orders.

The problem is NOT with prayer, or evangelizing. It's with WHERE it takes place. And WHO is doing it. For the academy football team, if EVERYONE agreed without feeling pressured to conform, I think the group prayer is fine. Civilian football teams do it all the time, after all. The old saying about "There are no atheists in the trenches when the bullets and artillery shells start flying is most certainly NOT true, but it does seem to have an effect on SOME people.

But the bottom line is that separation of church and state is a key part of our constitution. Unlike Europe, where nation states and principalities throughout history wound up switching religions when their king/prince/leadership declared that they were a "protestant/catholic/Lutheran/whatever" religion, or faced severe penalties (like death), OUR constitution is BASED on religious freedom.

However, while us military folks are free to join whatever faith they like, the Constitution also states that there will be NO STATE SPONSORED RELIGION. No OFFICIAL religion of the US. However, we also know that most of the founding fathers, now, took their religion with a grain of salt. Ben Franklin wasn't exactly a lecher, but wasn't exactly a faithful husband either. Neither was Thomas Jefferson. None of our founding fathers were saints, by any stretch of the imagination. George Washington had teeth ripped out of his slaves mouths so they could be implanted in his. However, they DID forsee a time when, as America grew, DIFFERENT religions as well as different sects of Christianity WOULD develop, and they KNEW it would cause a problem, so they did their best to head that problem off at the pass.

One has to remember that while we swore to DEFEND the constitution of the United States from enemies, both foreign and domestic, we do NOT fall under the protections of that same constitution. Example: Adultery is ONLY a crime in the military..not in the civilian world. We can be brought up on charges for not doing our job, not doing it correctly, or doing it TOO well (like in my case, running a 10,000 system basewide computer network (hardware side) with ZERO budget, ZERO systems under warranty, and ZERO spare parts. So I robbed parts off OLD computers destined for DRMO because something broke in that system. However, from MY point of view, if there was anything USEABLE in that system to repair another one, then it was my DUTY to use it. I would not, for instance, put a power supply that had caught fire back INTO a system bound for DRMO. We snagged RAM, drives, anything that could be salvaged to either upgrade or repair existing systems as well.

But in 2007, I was brought up on charges for turning in an ancient Micron PII/400 system that was NOT complete. They said I STOLE the parts and took them home. Now in 2007, precisely WHAT would I need parts from a machine that old for? I was a gamer, and I've always hand built my systems from the best tech out there..expensive, yes!

They wanted to court martial me. I was guilty until proven innocent. I had to do a complete inventory on TOP of the one I'd just done to transfer the account before I retired. EVERYTHING was there, and complete just like I'd said in my FIRST inventory. But I got fined $2000.00 and was forced to retire early, but luckily with an honorable discharge. And, of course, while all this was going on, systems were dying constantly and I wasn't even allowed to DO my job, lost my net admin privileges, etc. ROYALLY pissed me off because I WAS GUILTY TILL PROVEN INNOCENT and the burden of proof was on me. Especially since my commander, (who was a closet lesbian) was also judge and jury (I took the article 15, even though what they charged me with, WILLFUL dereliction of duty, was NOT what I should have been charged with.

So we do NOT get the protection of our own constitution. I was taken out of my office in handcuffs, paraded down the hallways of our huge RC-135 maintenance facility, which trust me, shocked the hell out of everyone (including me) and it's amazing how your staunchest supporters flee your presence when you come under a cloud.

NOBODY stood up for me, even though there wasn't a single person that I had NOT either helped or bailed out of trouble in that squadron (I was at Offutt 26 years). They were always glad when I came to fix their systems (I was the lead hardware tech on Offutt, and not beating my own drum, but NOBODY on base could compare..I NEVER had a system I couldn't fix! I was the "GO TO GUY" when everyone else failed. Even my first shirt was pissed off at what happened. He told me straight up "Dave, you did what you had to do to keep the mission going. Field Expedient Means. Without our systems, CAMS was dead. Weight and balance programs were dead, and ALL of our RC-135 aircraft would have been grounded almost immediately had I just thrown up my hands and said "they're broke..buy new ones". We were usually OUT of O&M funds by April of each year. ONCE in a great while we'd get a bit of fallout money and got maybe 20 new systems, which were, of course, snatched up by the high rankers, while the CAMS folks, for instance, were still using PIII systems that were slower than snails.

I made SURE they got as many new systems as I could scrounge.

So for keeping the mission first, in spite of zero funding, I was nearly court martialed. the problem with TAKING it to court was that they were going to pad the panel with total computer illiterates, who got confused trying to SAVE a document or to even open their email. Like I'd have stood a chance. Tried by my peers would have been ok, had they actually BEEN my peers, which would have been fellow systems guys..the guys who came to ME when they couldn't fix something. I'd have been off the hook in seconds.

Ok, sorry for the rant, but I used that as an example of how we are NOT protected by the constitution we swore to protect.

Think that PRAYER is a big deal? Ok, has the UCMJ been CHANGED since gays and lesbians can now be openly serving? From what I remember, your wife or girlfriend giving you a "hummer" was sodomy, the same crime as if you screwed a sheep. Guys got busted for it all the time in the dorms, because if the commander entered the dorm room (no warrant..lol) and caught a guy and a girl necking, or unclothed but NO evidence of them having sex, how do you DISPROVE the accusation of your girlfriend giving you a "hummer"? YOU CAN'T!

And since THAT problem actually directly affects the religion issue (I seriously doubt any evangelical church approves of same sex lovemaking), what did the UCMJ do about it?

Did NOTHING change except that now you can SAY you're gay, but you still can't have sex, because it's considered SODOMY under the UCMJ? (and no, I'm not gay, but we ALWAYS had gays and lesbians in the military, and as long as they didn't pinch MY ass, or come onto me, I was ok with it..personal lifestyle choice (or not choice, but genetic, whatever you believe). So say you were a lesbian or gay crewchief. Your shift boss is an evangelical. You are now serving openly. HE thinks you are an ABOMINATION. Think THAT won't be reflected in a performance report, or when it comes time to do the awards and decs thing?

To me, THAT issue is far MORE important than the prayer issue. But for me, Church and State must ALWAYS be separated. Because we are supposed to be ALL EQUAL UNDER THE LAW.

Then again, you really have to wonder why the services hire chaplains to begin with, and every base has a chapel that I've been on. We had a chaplain in our logistics group.. He was Jewish, funny as hell, ALWAYS looked rumpled like he slept in his uniform no matter WHAT he did with it, and he was a damned fine counselor. However, does anyone KNOW why we have base chapels, and a chaplain force? ALL the services do. And for true separation of church and state, THOSE probably need to disappear as well. Now in a combat zone, I can see the services providing a tent for use by any or all of the different religions present in that unit or area, especially when it's NOT safe to gather to worship in places like Ashcanistan. But in the CONUS, and even overseas, I'm quite sure that anyone wanting to go to church could find one off base.

The only reason I brought the chapels up is because sooner or later the ACLU or some other dipshit organization will figure it out and demand that they go.

So think about this. Oh, and for you enlisted (and officer I think), read your enlistment contract. I DARE you to find on that document ANYWHERE that you get PAID. We assume it, but at least on my contracts, there is no mention of money. Only that the military will provide you room and board, and that might not even be on there.

Ok, enough ranting. But I think you can see my point. It all comes down to ethics versus religion, or maybe integrity versus religion. You all swore an oath, same as I did. But we were also taught that we did NOT have to obey an unlawful order. However, it seems that the UCMJ decides what orders are lawful and what orders are not.

LET US PRAY, said by your commander at commander's call IS AN ORDER FROM YOUR COMMANDER TO PRAY. Nothing wrong with being an evangelical ANYTHING (I think the true interpretation of the Koran makes ALL Moslems EVANGELICAL, since it IS a basic tenant of the Koran and Islam to SPREAD THE WORD AMONGST THE UNBELIEVERS! I've read the Koran front to back many times (though I'm positive that you lose something in the translation from Arabic to English).

What would you do if your commander suddenly came into your office wearing a turban and you hear a "call to prayer" over the intercom system? Alarms would go off in your head that would deafen you.

Well, guess what? A kid in ROTC in college managed to get a CIVILIAN judge to rule that (since the boy is a SIKH (I spelled it wrong, I know), he CAN grow his beard and wear a turban WHILE in uniform. The judge stated that the beard was no different from the shaving waivers for people with that pseudofalliculitis, or whatever it is (where skin grows over your whiskers or they grow while NOT penetrating the skin after you shave). However, that religion does NOT allow you to trim your beard either. Go google that one

Dave

When I retired, I got no shadow box, no retirement certificate for me OR my kids or spouse, and I was forced to lose 60 days of leave as well because the commander refused to authorize my selling it back. I left the service a VERY bitter man.

We are ALL held to a higher standard than civilians are. yet we are supposed to reflect a cross section of society. When our commander in chief commits adultery, he gets away with it. When our own USAF IG gets bagged for career wide sexual harassment, he gets to retire.

Well what about the chapel - is that not taboo as well - underneath the main chapel there is a synagogue and in the back a nondenominational church as well - this was all introduced as a plebe - not to mention it was built with federal funds - church and state.

The fundamental idea behind freedom of religion is the ability for each individual to, pardon the redundancy, freely practice their faith (that means anywhere). It is not, however, a freedom for those in power to limit religious expression. If an individual is offended by another's religious practices, the appropriate response is to simply not participate or say their own prayer. Practice of religion is a personal allowance for as long as it is voluntary and does not interfere with the mission.

In layman's terms; they can pray, you can choose not to participate or pray to a god of spaghetti and meatballs, but you can't prevent them from praying to whoever they choose. This needs to be viewed on a personal level in that each student chose to do this, and they are entitled to do so for themselves.

Sir with all due respect this article is offensive. I say that because there is nothing wrong with the players praying. It's not hurting the mission (even though this is football), and if this gives the players or servicemen a chance to get a sense of calm before the game or a mission, I'm all for it. For the Generals to say that it plays into any terrorist orgs playbook, I'd ask him how many foot patrols or even mounted ones has he been on? I know my guys had no problem praying before moving out...EVER. If anything this video would play into OUR playbook as a sign of solidarity through religions or even those that are not believers. It's what we NEED now. There was an uproar over the football player who happened to be Muslim and after scoring a TD he got down and thanked Mohammed. Thank goodness cooler heads prevailed and he had the full support of his team, the NFL, and many fans. If we took this simple show of support away, something that doesn't cost any money, is open to those who want to partake in it, and doesn't hurt or offend those who don't, we've truly fell into the hands of the enemy. They've finally made it so we are taking away our basic freedoms in the pursuit of "security", and that isn't what we stand for. If any of those officers can show me where prayer of any faith has affected their missions, resulted in losses of man and equipment I'd amend my view.