Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
You dismiss everyone but him and the squad/section leader. Climb up one side then down the other on the section leader and give the offender toilet cleaning duty for the nexy 30 days. between the toilet cleaning and now his section leader dogging him, he will hopefully learn a lesson. if not, then office hours as we called it, or Captain's mass and bust him down to private or bad conduct discharge. Insubordinate pukes get marines killed in combat!
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I would write the E-2 up and recommend him or her for a Article 15 under the UCMJ.
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SSgt Jeffrey Andrews
The right thing to do. Unlike my response which was predicated by being out in the field for two weeks on a battalion mount out, with every other crew member snapping to their jobs wanting to go home to their families.
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Too many second chances. Your in formation. Demand an explanation, i.e information gathering begins immediately. If there is nothing to hide... there is nothing to hide from. If the E2 requests privacy prior to disclosure in formation for refusing a direct order, dismiss all except senior staff (witnesses) and immediate supervisor. If there is a reasonable excuse or explanation, undertake appropriate actions to correct whatever the E2 brought to your attention. If the issue is unfounded and without merit, commence with reduction of pay, Article 15 and removal from service. If the issue is found to have merit, commencement action for the manner the E2 took, rather than bring the issue up in another appropriate setting. Loss of pay at a minimum over a short time, no more than a pay period, not less than $50.00.
If there are no reasonable explanations, dismiss all but senior staff (Witnesses), and immediate supervisor, commence action for removal from service under Article 15. There is a waiting line of volunteers to take an E-2's place without suffering a significant loss of that E-2's training.
Calling him or her out before all in formation shows that you can and will accept the responsibilities of being a supervisor and will seek out the truth of the matter asserted...in front of all. You never hide from a lower enlisted, especially in E1-E2 status... Discipline was learned in Basic... there are E-1 and E2's in basic training settings. This appears on the surface to be in a basic training or in a secondary education setting as presented...but like with most posts...the information provided is limited, only showing disrespect to the Senior Non Com's authority.
Either way, as presented, the E-2 is in deep shit if I were the Non Com... I never had that happen under the short circumstances presented, But knee jerking didn't happen with me either, and I never hid nor tried to be something I wasn't.
I was always straight up with my troops. I never lied to them, told then that is the way it is, didn't try to be a bad ass, sympathized when proper, told them I had their back if they were in the right, but was their worst enemy of they lied to me or were jerking my chain.
If there are no reasonable explanations, dismiss all but senior staff (Witnesses), and immediate supervisor, commence action for removal from service under Article 15. There is a waiting line of volunteers to take an E-2's place without suffering a significant loss of that E-2's training.
Calling him or her out before all in formation shows that you can and will accept the responsibilities of being a supervisor and will seek out the truth of the matter asserted...in front of all. You never hide from a lower enlisted, especially in E1-E2 status... Discipline was learned in Basic... there are E-1 and E2's in basic training settings. This appears on the surface to be in a basic training or in a secondary education setting as presented...but like with most posts...the information provided is limited, only showing disrespect to the Senior Non Com's authority.
Either way, as presented, the E-2 is in deep shit if I were the Non Com... I never had that happen under the short circumstances presented, But knee jerking didn't happen with me either, and I never hid nor tried to be something I wasn't.
I was always straight up with my troops. I never lied to them, told then that is the way it is, didn't try to be a bad ass, sympathized when proper, told them I had their back if they were in the right, but was their worst enemy of they lied to me or were jerking my chain.
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For an E2 to disrespect and refuse an order from an NCO in formation needs to be dealt with right then. Don't bring him to Top, unless it is for UCMJ action. Assign the job to others for accomplishment of the mission, deal with the E2,between the E5 and his PSG and figure the proper punishment. Make sure the rest of the platoon knows that the E2 was punished so that they know it did not go unpunished. The E2 also owes the soldiers that accomplished his duty an apology.
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Garrison and Field are two separate arenas, agreed. But for an E-2 to flippantly talk back to an NCO in ANY formation is INSUBORDINATION, and needs to be dealt with firmly and in formation. I agree with the other comments about sending said private to talk with the TOP. Any good NCO who's made it to that level will square that troop away. Even if this was a garrison unit, and not a combat unit, good discipline is what makes for good soldiers and a good unit. Just like a other comments have stated, letting this one slip (or get by) shows lack of discipline on his part and lack of backbone in the NCO. Neither one would be respected after that.
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I would inform the rest of the squad that e-2 such and such doesn't want to be part of the team . Have the squad come up with his punishment for you . Or have the rest of the squad do the work that e-2 such and such was supposed to do:)
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This is sad and reflects on just how far the standards have dropped since I was in. Had they done this to me they would have been dropped on the spot so everyone could see that it would not be tolerated, a counseling statement would have been done and depending on the individual 2 more would have followed and they would be facing a Field grade and heading back on the block. I was leaving the Army just when liberals were allowing SM,s to have more rights and question authority as well as the Red /yellow cards they were allowed to "pass out" when they felt intimidated...TOTAL BS, you chose the military and you took an oath, its not a 9-5 job where you decide what you do and dont want to do. Things have gone down hill even more if this is the standard. It openly undermines the NCO's credibility as a leader and questions their integrity in front of everyone. Not good.
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SSgt Gary Guinn
I have been a Civilian now for over 25 years, I can't choose which jobs I accept and don't accept. Where do these Snowflakes think they live? Oh yeah, at Mom's House. Come see us in the real world Buttercups, waiting for you.
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CPL Quinton Reed
in my time it would have been a field grade asap and he would have had to hitch hike home
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Their is so much failure in this short description. Failure on the boot next to him for not jumping down his throat. Failure on his team leader for not doing the same. But wait there's more... he still has a squad leader who is almost certainly an E5 as well who should immediately be in his face. Then comes you! It's obvious that your command has failed you as well. The fact that apparently you are close to picking up a SNCO rank and need to ask advice on how to correct some kid fresh out the school house is amazing! Haven't you ever been to an NCO school? I'd assume that throughout your x amount of years of service you have seen people get corrected. Did you think to pay attention? The answer to your question is to make his life a living hell. Make him realize that it is much easier to listen the first time than try to get into a pissing contest with you! I always used the tone of voice that was appropriate for that specific situation and for that specific person. You should know what the best way to get through to that person bc he is under your charge! Put him on weekend duties. Put him on the second to last fire watch. Give him the crappiest working party details. Invite him over at zero dark thirty with you to go on a nice long run. Make him sweep the sunshine off the sidewalk. Most of all, lead by example. After all, we are war fighters and I don't know about you but I always preferred to feel a little more comfortable knowing the guy with the loaded gun next to me cared about my well being as much as I cared about theirs.
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SPC Don Wynn
Yeah, that was my first reaction as well - if it was the E-5 asking, what is he doing as an E-5, especially if not the puke's SL? NCO school is not needed for this type of situation, this is real basic; you smoke his ass in formation, then accompany him to Plt Sgt office for discussion of further actions. But, if I were said E-5, I'd be taking an internal review of my situation to see how I let this be a thing in the first place! There is obviously some lack of discipline involved and that reflects on me.
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