Posted on Oct 16, 2016
LTJG Ansi Officer
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
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Lt Col Charlie Brown
18
18
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Anyone senior to this adolescent would have to correct him whether the troop lead was an officer or an NCO. This is the sort of thing that is very detrimental to good order and discipline and ultimately unit performance.
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SGT Steve McFarland
SGT Steve McFarland
6 y
That is one of the reasons I got out of the Army. Discipline had gone to hell in a hand-basket in just two years, and I wasn't going to put up with that kind of crap while Top refused to back me up.
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SFC Electronic Warfare Nco
18
18
0
I don't think this is a "quiet" behind the scenes interaction with said private. Failure to immediately address such insubordination sets a standard and will create issues for a long time afterward.
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PO3 Jake Lucid
PO3 Jake Lucid
6 y
I couldn't agree more. What you permit you promote.
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PVT Mark Dorton
18
18
0
The Old saying,We can't make you do it.. But we can make you wish you did.
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SFC William Allen
SFC William Allen
>1 y
Good one!
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CWO3 Us Marine
CWO3 (Join to see)
>1 y
That's what I'm talking about. Please NJP my ass, cause this is killing me. Marine 24/7 and a world of ways to change attitude and motivation besides standing tall.
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CWO3 Us Marine
CWO3 (Join to see)
>1 y
I'd almost guarantee that if his entire Squad had to stand uniform and 782 gear inspections every Saturday due to his slip, the problem would solve itself. Not recommended but still expedient.
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AA Michel Erlandsen
AA Michel Erlandsen
>1 y
As we all know there are three sides to a story, and a story inside a story. I'm a Vietnam vet and been in the Navy for 3 years and Air Force for 20 yrs. I've seen so much conflict between high ranks and lower ranks. More than enough lowest rank is always at fault. Its proof right here in this blog. All these higher ranks that are responding to this question immediately are on the E5 side. First of all , being CALMLY too one person may not be calmly to others. How did the E5 calmly speak to his troops. Was he calmly saying " Hey, do you think your bright enough to do this task"? Or was he very diplomatic when he asked this young troop to do this task. The E2 also could be a spoiled little brat.
I have seen so many E4 and above just let their ranks get to their head. It's like giving a MONkEY A LOADED GUN.
There was a CWO I knew who hated enlisted personnel, thought every one of them were stupid and didn't know their jobs, and talked down to them. He has been spoken to by other higher ranking officers to lighten up on he enlisted, but since he was an officer he didn't have to. This is just one example, of so many I've seen. On the other hand Ive' seen a lot of PUNK ASS Kids that are just out of control, and there is no discipline that well straighten them out.
If this E2 is being a Punk, I agree , he should be pulled out of formation and perhaps talk to him to see whats bothering him and why he reacts this way. If getting no place with him then serious discipline actions need to be taken
According to this E5 question, it sounds to me that nothing happened (no discipline acct-ion} to the E2 because the E5 may not of been at his best behavior also. I say this is because he's asking this question to see how many people will agree with him, and nobody knows the real story. Also the picture shows that this E5 is not calm and he is amplifying his authority.
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SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
18
18
0
See how many push-ups he can do before I get tired of watching(I'm old school).
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PO1 Mary Vermont
PO1 Mary Vermont
>1 y
Not that old school. I for sure wouldn’t let him off that easy
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SGT Philip Roncari
18
18
0
I cannot resist answering this post,although it has little to do with E2s who smart mouth,it does have a discipline method I found effective dealing with,let's say unruly troops.I was a patrolling instructor at Fort Polk La.upon my return from Vietnam,in the AIT phase of their training they were required to do day and night patrols under my supervision,a group of trainees had been giving trouble to other instructor and since I happened to be at the time the E5 on the range with the most experience on this certain AO,(been on the range for almost a year) anyway there were two options,the dry one and the wet one ,up to your neck in a Louisiana swamp pitch black night with simulators going off around you,I chose the latter for the miscreants and a fun night was had by all,probably wouldn't work in today's PC Army but worked just fine for me!
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CWO3 Us Marine
CWO3 (Join to see)
>1 y
Phil, There is a movie about training down there from that period called Tigerland. It was a decent movie and dealt with some of the issues from that time. It looked like a camp from many SERE courses and one of the characters was an NCO that shared the same things you refer to about getting them ready for war. It was filmed in Florida. You may have seen it but it would probably bring back some memories, so not sure how well it would sit with you. I'm sure you did your best and that's all anyone can ask for. You can't save all of them but your actions likely helped some survive. Best wishes and Welcome Home. Will http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0170691/
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SGT Philip Roncari
SGT Philip Roncari
>1 y
CW03 William McIntosh -I have seen this movie,and feel there was a lot more Hollywood than Tigerland,my group of instructors (cadre) were mostly Infantry Vietnam Vets so most of our demons came from our shared experiences and that helped as we connected back in the States,so no bad memories at Polk,it was after we left each other the demons returned ,think they call it PTSD now,thank you for your concern ,it means a lot to this old grunt.
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CWO3 Us Marine
CWO3 (Join to see)
>1 y
SGT Philip Roncari - Hollywood usually doesn't get it right with both the script and locations. They rely on most people not knowing the difference. Sometimes they actually use places that we can recognize. An example for me was Heartbreak Ridge. I've been in many of the places they used at Camp Pendleton such as the rappel tower and the quonset huts at San Onofre; where the School of Infantry West is. I believe a scene from Flight of the Intruder may be a part of Magsaysay Street in Olongapo City, PI that I remember. There's also a scene from inside Quantico Brig but I can't remember movie. As a Sergeant I chased a turd to lockup after his court martial in 1981 so it reminded me. The guy that shot Pres. Reagan - Hinckley - was there at the time. Many shots from around base at Camp Lejeune in Rules of Engagement were familiar also. I'm glad life has been relatively good to you - all things considered - and salute your for your service and sacrifice.
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SGT Philip Roncari
SGT Philip Roncari
>1 y
CWO3 William McIntosh-And I to you Brother.
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SGT Robert Wager
18
18
0
Yeah... This type of situation is apparently handled differently in today's military. There would have been a swarm of NCOs crawling on that poor private in my day.

My first response would have been to tell Private %^&K Nut to close his mouth. My next response would be to release the rest of the formation to start their duties. Others have posted that they would ask if there was some sort of personal problem that might be going on in this young soldier's life. My response to this is that if you are good NCO you would know that long before you have that soldier in front of you in formation. It is your job to know if there is something wrong. Obviously, this S&*T stain has simply developed an attitude. It is also your job as an NCO to correct that attitude. Disrespect me in formation you get a ticket to see the PSG and 1SG for more "formal" discipline. Counseling recommending UCMJ action be taken. Summarized article 15, 14X14 would be appropriate if this is the first time something like this has happened. This gives Joe the opportunity to correct himself without it traveling with him for the rest of his career. Commanders have the tools in their toolbox to fix these problems, NCOs have a duty to give them the chance.
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SPC Brian Mason
SPC Brian Mason
>1 y
What? I mouthed off to one of my E6's the first week I was at my first unit without thinking. After he took me somewhere out of sight, he gave me a well-deserved verbal lashing. I had gotten complacent.
For that idiotic person, he needs the same thing. The Army, and military should be held to higher standards than the civilians and country we protect. Once a leader shows that he/she is TOO SOFT they will remember it. You are not there to be his friend. That paperwork crap doesn't last forever; they are temporary obstacles. The same in your face, yelling, insult response NEEDS to return and for instances when it is warranted.
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SGT Robert Wager
SGT Robert Wager
>1 y
SPC Brian Mason - Getting a little cocky or too complacent is one thing. Refusing to follow an order in formation is a different animal. Sometimes the formal route is needed to let every other soldier know where the line is. Minor discipline errors can be handled informally with an on the spot correction or "attitude adjustment". When Joe flat out disobeys a lawful order it is time to send it up the chain.
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SPC Brian Mason
SPC Brian Mason
>1 y
SGT Robert Wager - We're not talking about other instances. The lower enlisted clearly disobeyed ant talked back to someone of higher rank. Per example, telling an NCO/Officer to pick someone else......? I don't need to be an NCO or go to OCS to know what's violating an order. Fort Drum soldiers would make a good example of him/her.
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SGT Robert Wager
SGT Robert Wager
>1 y
My opinion, this type of behavior would warrant a more official type of action rather than a "dressing down".
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PO1 Cryptologic Technician (Technical)
18
18
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"stand by to stand by" while in formation, continue to give out anything else that you need to. After everyone is gone, have a higher rank with you (maybe E6 or above to witness the informal counseling). Ask them why they feel that the order you gave to them was not up to their standards (so to speak). If the response is still attitude driven, kick it into high gear (with tact) and explain to them that not doing a tasks that is assigned to them from a higher rank is considered insubordination and can be written down as "refusal to follow a direct order from a higher rank". Ask them if they want to continue to refuse, if they say yes, then have your E6 take over from there; you can only do so much as an E5. If it gets worse, wire it up the CoC.

One thing about being an E5 senior or not, you can only do so much within your power and sometimes having that backup of an E6 or higher helps put things into perspective for the E2. With the additional support you have, the E2 can either thing about what he/she said and do the task he/she was given or continue to be insubordinate. Plus when you need to give a verbal beatdown (again with tact) you can have that backup in case that E2 decides to say you were hazing him/her or whatever.

Also, please think before you act. Given it's a simple thing but a lot of leadership can just shoot from the hip and then they ask questions later.

All the Best!
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Sgt Joseph Baker
Sgt Joseph Baker
>1 y
In the Corps, you were an NCO at Corporal, but slap that third chevron on their and you were an immortal being only a fool would refuse. Becoming a Sergeant changed things. Not to too many Marines are going to refuse an order from anyone whose rank included Sergeant in it. If they did, they pretty much had to expect a hammer would fall.
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SSG Rick Miller
SSG Rick Miller
>1 y
Get a higher rank as backup? You wear the stripes, you don't need backup. Advise Joe Snuffy that he either follows lawful orders, or his tenure in your Army will be very unpleasant and very short.
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PO1 Personnel Specialist
PO1 (Join to see)
>1 y
Very well said; agree 100%
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PO2 Rick Fox
PO2 Rick Fox
>1 y
It must be "today's NAVY" you are referring to with that suggestion PO2 Wayman but we certainly didn't do that in the 80's. As an E-5 you are a leader, handle insubordination swiftly or others will try the same.
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SSG Retired!!!
18
18
0
make the next few hours of his/her life horrible
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SSG(P) Casualty Operations Ncoic
SSG(P) (Join to see)
>1 y
SPC Erich Guenther - No the new directive here at Bragg is pretty much instant Involuntary Separation with a Negative characterization on his DD 214. It covers pretty much everything from parking in the wrong area to DUI and/or drug/alcohol abuse and everything more serious.
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SSG Retired!!!
SSG (Join to see)
>1 y
SPC Erich Guenther - I can honestly tell you as an NCO, I would be able to correct with with no paperwork. Now if we are talking about a guy that has been wasting space and in the best interest to everyone, he should be chartered out, then yes, UCMJ his ass so the a chapter in the near future can go through.
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SPC Erich Guenther
SPC Erich Guenther
>1 y
SSG(P) (Join to see) - OK thats interesting but also the other extreme.
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SPC Erich Guenther
SPC Erich Guenther
>1 y
SSG (Join to see) - OK I think SSG Unger filled in the missing piece. So basically if you have an ART 15 now in your records and a QMP record review happens you can be considered for a involuntary seperation because of the ART 15? Is that what this is about at the root level? If that is the case I understand it now, thanks. I know and agree with the rest of what you said I was just trying to put it together in my head why not an ART 15.
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SFC George Smith
17
17
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... Find the worse and Nastiest detail for the Clown...
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SGT Steve Burke
SGT Steve Burke
>1 y
My theory exactly. There is always an even crappier job to do in the Army than the one they were supposed to do in the first place. I spent all of my NCO time in a training unit so we couldn't mess with the PVTs, but I always found a way to get my point across without involving higher and violating the trainee abuse policies. Cleaning a tank hull in services is always a good one.
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Cpl Automotive Organizational Mechanic
16
16
0
Man I miss the making little holes into big holes and vise versa, now is to much paperwork
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SFC Charles Temm
SFC Charles Temm
>1 y
when I was a pivot back in the Canal Zone, I saw the 1SG of the CSC make a couple of troops dig a grave for a 1/4ton w/a mounted 106mm and had them bury it. Then they dug out said equipment and had a few hours to get it ready for inspection. If I remember right it was b/c they missed first formation...
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GySgt Kenneth Pepper
GySgt Kenneth Pepper
>1 y
One of my favorites go-to EPD activities was having a training session on a .50 cal emplacement. Look that up in your old knowledge book. Fun for hours. And then, put that dirt back in my hole.
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LCpl Stephen Arnold
LCpl Stephen Arnold
>1 y
When I joined the National Guard after my USMC days, and became an NCO, I was still in when the Army transitioned to the tan boots.

One of my old platoon sergeants had left me a box of old, wore out black leather boots, and told me to "Find a use for these." One day, I had several young Soldiers fucking a round, and we had just had a mandatory briefing (I hated those) about NOT abusing the Joes. I had them standing at parade rest, when the box started glowing at me. For the first four hours after final formation, and after their 1/2 hour dinner to McDonalds, I had them sit and spit shine each and every boot in the box with an inspection ready shine. the pride in their faces was a sight to behold; the disappointment as I dragged each boot through the mud outdoors, and scuffed them up worse than before, told me that I had struck upon something even the FRONT LEANING REST position couldn't touch. Awe, magical moments of leadership bliss! lol
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CWO3 Us Marine
CWO3 (Join to see)
>1 y
When all else fails they get to make little rocks out of big ones. Hard cases on the way out or even a turnaround. We once took a knucklehead to watch at CLNC. It was an attention gainer.
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