Posted on Oct 16, 2016
LTJG Ansi Officer
1.85M
16.7K
5.38K
1.5K
1.5K
0
08a24fcb
Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Avatar feed
Responses: 3697
Votes
  • Newest
  • Oldest
  • Votes
Maj Realtor
0
0
0
That's easy. As a 2LT I had an E-4 challenge my authority balking my authority over a relatively easy task on the "night shift of an ORI" - this was many years ago. With witnesses present, I gave her a "new task better fitting her attitude". The previous task was checking in new arrivals to the decontamination area. Her new task was cleaning the communal latrine. That was the LAST time I had issue with her AND others present knew not to mess with the L T. Bottom line: if your subordinate with the attitude doesn't like Task A, then assign Task B, Task C, etc and ratchet up the unpleasantness until they get the message. As long as the order is legal, they're obligated to follow.
One more thing, should you have aspirations for Senior NCO status one day, you'll want to learn how to handle this type of situation on the spot! The longer you wait, the more your authority will degrade
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT C Breckenridge
0
0
0
its easy, you refer him to charley's chicken farm for failure to follow an indirect order and/or failure to repair. its company level, does not require an Article 15 and if he has problems there, push it up the chain to Batt. While blanket parties might work, get caught doing it and its your ass that will be facing the UCMJ.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
MAJ Terry Stanley
0
0
0
Platoon attention! Half left face! Front leaning rest position move! In cadience exercise!
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Greg K.
0
0
0
Wall-to-wall counseling? E-4 Mafia?
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Robert Marinez
0
0
0
While I am not a fan of publicly disciplining a soldier, public disrespect deserves public discipline to ensure that others in the formation do not get confused about obeying direct orders. With the limited information provided, I am going to assume that the SM was purposely disrespectful and willfully disobeying a direct order. I would immediately forcefully, loudly, and colorfully address the soldiers blatant disrespect and insubordination. I would have the SM fall out to the front of the formation and begin smoking him. While the SM is performing exercises as a part of his corrective action, I would finish giving out the work for the day and dismiss everyone to their assigned tasks except for a few senior E-4s, whom I would have standby in the vicenity. I would then forcefully, loudly, and colorfully discuss the situation with the SM to get to the root cause of the issue. If there is some sort of horrible life event he is dealing with that I am somehow not yet aware of, I would give the SM the opportunity to perform the assigned task after a sufficient smoke session while still dealing with the consequences of losing his military bearing by having the senior E-4s ensure that the SM will never make the same mistake again through personal attention and corrective training as needed for the next few days. If there has not been some sort of horrible life event, the SM would be smoked until he is ready to complete his assigned tasks. Once the SM is ready to comply, my senior E-4s would accompany the SM to ensure that the task is completed in a satisfactory manner by the SM alone if possible. Once the task is completed I would continue to smoke the SM as a part of my corrective training until the next task needing to be done came up, and I would again assign the SM to perform this new task and have my E-4s accompany him again to ensure that the task is completed in a satisfactory manner. Once the task has been completed I would continue to smoke the SM as a part of my corrective action until the next task that needs to be done came up. This would continue throughout the day. At COB, the SM would not be allowed to stand in formation, but instead, be positioned off to the side to continue being smoked during the formation. This is to ensure that the point is driven home to the rest of SMs that disrespect and insubordination will not be tolerated under my leadership. Once the other SMs have been released for the day, the insubordinate SM would be assigned to clean the Company AO while I stayed to supervise to ensure that the tasks are completed in a timely and satisfactory manner. Once the company AO has been thouroughly cleaned, I would instruct the SM to immediately begin working on a 2000 word report about Military discipline, the effects of insubordination and disrespect toward leadership in the military, and applicable military laws and potential punishments under military law for the SMs actions. I would instruct the SM to write the essay in APA format with proper citations of all material used to compile his report. I would then release the SM for the evening with instructions to report for duty 2 hours prior to first formation everyday until he has completed his report to my satisfaction. The SM would further be instructed that he will report to me the following day with an outline of his report as soon as he showed up to the company AO as I would be there to meet him for his report time. The SM would be instructed to bring his work with him every morning to show his progress and receive guidance from me on his report. The SM would be further instructed to not leave base if he resides on post with his family until the report is completed. If the SM lives in the barracks, the SM would not be allowed to leave the battalion area without being escorted by an E-4 or above and would not be allowed off base because he can no longer be trusted to hold military bearing until he completes his report to my satisfaction. I would instruct the E-4s in his platoon to ensure that the SM complies with all of my instructions regarding his restriction to the battalion AO without an E-4 or above escorting him. I would also ask them to assist the SM in relearning his military bearing and to mentoring him. If the SMs behavior continues despite my attempts at corrective action, I would then begin paperwork, but this would be my last resort.
(0)
Comment
(0)
SGT Robert Marinez
SGT Robert Marinez
>1 y
I left out that if this incident was related to a horrible life event, I would obviously help the SM navigate the event the appropriate way and through the appropriate channels until the life event situation is resolved.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Richelle Rice-Simms
0
0
0
Personally, I’d want to beat his ass, but that can’t occur, so, I’d take him aside and give him a verbal warning, if the attitude continued then a written warning & if it still continued, up the chain of command for more severe punishment.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Katherine Adams (Clayburn)
0
0
0
Nip that in the ass..... Old fashioned smoking would change his tune....
Though nowadays, seems to me that the new privates get away with way to much now. Don't ask why they don't want to do it. It was a freaking order for him to do the job, period. Whether he likes it or not..... not like it was unlawful for Christ's sake.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
GySgt Dewey Bennett
0
0
0
Before or after my CSM takes him away?
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CH (CPT) Adjunct History Professor
0
0
0
Edited >1 y ago
PO1 George Martin,
I cannot speak on behalf of the other branches of service. But with that said, I have a good idea what they would do. And it would not be good for the E-2.

I served in the U.S. Marine Corps 1978 - 1981 and with all three segments of the United States Army, i.e., U.S. Army 1981-1985 / 1987-1991 (Desert Storm Veteran), Ohio Army National Guard 1991-1999 and U.S. Army Reserve 1985-1987 / 1999-2010 (Retired).

All I can say is, back in the day, “I would not want to be in his boots for the next two weeks.” Beginning right after that formation. Hell week in Basic Training wouldn’t begin to touch what this E-2 was about to experience. Especially.... in the U.S. Marine Corps and the U.S. Army.

In my day concerning the USMC after formation, this E-2 would been instructed to stand fast. The Assistant Squad Leader (Gunner) in Field Artillery 0811, would have been instructed to carry on with the rest of the section and follow through with the orders of the day. Then Gunny an E-7 and the Sgt an E-5 would begin. They would be all up in this E-2’s face. Then the First Sergent E-8 takes over. After a counseling, this E-2 would belong to (TOP) for the next two weeks. The E-2 would have have been ordered to scrub floors, wax and buff the floors, clean toilets, clean the units weapons in the arms room with an inspection per each weapon, emptying trash cans, painting the orderly room, emptying the oil pans in the Motor Pool, picking up trash in the Battalion Area, painting rocks in the (Btry Area), put on every nasty detail you could imagine, mandated to endure inspection after inspection of himself, his room, his field gear and his equipment. He would also be ordered to go on a 10 mile road march every morning at 0400hrs with a 40lb full ruck pack, webb gear, weapon and helmet, accompanied by an NCO. How do you think each NCO felt about being ordered to march with this insubordinate E-2 throughout the next two weeks? 14 straight days to include Saturday and Sunday? This E-2 would be ordered to empty trash and do the nasty details at the Mess Hall as well. The E-2 would also be ordered to do extra P.T. during his lunch and after liberty, accompanied by an NCO. That’s just the beginning.

After enforcing those two weeks of unofficial punishment via details, then comes the....Company Grade Article 15 administered by the Btry Commander (Skipper). The E-2 would receive an official two weeks of extra duty. To include in the Article 15,....Restricted to the Barracks, except the Mess Hall and Chapel and (One Weeks Pay) taken out. Hardcore Semper Fi!

In my day, early.....in the U.S. Army, that E-2 probably would receive most of that mentioned above but would have been sent to CCF. They used to tack that on to an Article 15 for one week for the most extreme cases in the Army. The Correctional Custody Facility, where they ran P.T. with a telephone pole at 0400hrs, not counting everything else they were ordered to do at CCF.

Then....once back from CCF, a group of NCO’s chose by the First Sergeant would have been selected to give instruction to this E-2 concerning personal motivation. Behind Closed Doors. I doubt the E-2 would ever disobey a lawful order given to him again. Especially, if this E-2 had to serve in some of the units I served in during the late 70’s and early 80’s. Memories. Hooah!

My how times have changed. For the most part, they have changed for the good. I bet many are glad this is 2019, instead of 1978, or 1981. There is no explanation as to what this E-2 could say. Disrespect, Failure to Repair, Failure to follow orders, Disobeying a Lawful Order Article 92, that’s just for starters. Now, if the E-2 had some mental health issue or serious personal issue(s), I assume that would be exposed and handled in house. But the UCMJ should be implemented in some form. For good order and discipline.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Donald Croswhite
0
0
0
First and foremost, before a scuffing from heck, you calmly write a counseling recording the privates actions. This may seem "new army" but when this attitude continues a pattern can be shown to chapter him out. Then we go get our camelbaks and have some fun.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Tom Cross
0
0
0
you will follow the orders given to you by and any NCO of Officer as long as it isn't an Unlawful order.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Bobby Vann
0
0
0
I never had this happen but I wish it did.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Jerry Kee
0
0
0
He would fall out of formation, send him to his quarters and inform him you will send for him when he has completed his duties. I would then discuss it with Top and get his input. Sounds like a good opportunity to put someone on KP for a week or Guard Duty. The second time, Art 15, period.
(0)
Comment
(0)
SSG Jerry Kee
SSG Jerry Kee
>1 y
Sorry, I mean. "when I complete my duties".
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
CPT Larry Hudson
0
0
0
Edited >1 y ago
As an officer combat hardened, this soldier and I would have a "come to Jesus" moment in my office with the 1st Sgt present. If he didn't get his head screwed on there, the last act of defiance would be as the MP's were carrying him to the stockade.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
PO3 John Jeter
0
0
0
By this time, knot-head should have a clue as to how things work. It's obvious, at least to me, that he is an example waiting to be used. I would ask him one time; "Are you sure that's what you want?" If he backs down you have some latitude. If he doesn't, throw the biggest list of book charges you can compile at him and push it hard and fast. Don't give him the opportunity to recant or weasel out. I know it's harsh, but more and more of these entitled brats are coming of age. Making a show of disciplinary fury might help prevent others from doing this kind of stupid stunt. In 1977 a friend of mine actually told the chief that he was going on strike until he received an admin discharge. The Chief wasted no time having him up on Art. 15 and he received 3 days bread and water. When he came out the chief informed him that the 3 days didn't count towards the completion of his enlistment and it didn't bother him at all to send him back as many times as it took. Or he could get his stuff together, get to work, and pursue an admin discharge through proper channels with no repercussions. Not only did James get his stuff together, he became an exemplary sailor who actually reenlisted shortly before I got out. I should point out though, when James said he was going on strike it wasn't done in front of the whole unit where it became a public challenge to authority.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CW4 Not Applicable
0
0
0
The way I handled it in 1960 as a SGT E-5 was to dismiss all but PVT Smartmouth, escorted his young ass to the First Seargeant, promptly filled out charges for disrespect to an NCO. PVT Smartmouth was given a Summary Courts Martial, reduced to PVT E-1, forfeited all pay and allowances, and placed in confinement for 90 days. He became a model soldier after completing his sentence. Within 18 months afterward his confinement, he attained the grade of E-5.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CPL Sheila Lewis
0
0
0
Look that troop eye to eye and say "Front leaning rest, execute."
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CPL Sarah Verity
0
0
0
As a former private, I feel the need to pitch in here. I'm going to be blunt, so you might not want to read any further lol. For one, there's no such thing as a "senior E5" that alone is off-putting (also known as "power tripping") and if you display this attitude to your subordinates it's no wonder you're having problems. I went from E2 to CPL in less than a year because it times of war the military seeks out the best leaders. First thing is to get to know your soldiers well. His first impression of you is you're not a leader worth following. Punishing him won't change his mind. You're going to be accused of abuse at some point if you think hazing him day in and day out will work. They've been hazed up to that point by drill sergeants and it obviously did nothing to correct the problem. So on being a leader, you need to seek first to understand than be understood. Is this soldier being treated like shit day in and out under your leadership causing him to loose faith in your ability to lead? That's usually the situation. If you treat him like a dog, be prepared to get bit. Now, how to change it is the answer you're looking for. Hold a weekend picnic at the lake, we did this all the time. Let the families meet, the kids run and learn who your soldiers are when the uniform comes off. And for GOD SAKE don't "pull rank" at the picnic! You will realize that this soldier is a human being, talented and capable of behaving when he isn't under constant orders from superiors. He can relax, breathe and you can sit down with a beer and Barbee Q with a cold one or whatever as you talk life over and figure out what he wants for his future and how you as his sergeant can help lead him there. I had a soldier, totally out of control and had popped positive for crystal Meth. It turns out his wife was divorcing him. We put him through rehab and counseling. Another soldier having a mental health crisis, we let him go to counseling, all back when a 'personality discharge' was the norm. These guys ended up being great soldiers. Your soldiers have been through alot and their tired of people telling them how to breathe. Hold an outing, figure out who this person (not soldier) is and he will respect you and trust your leadership because you're the only one who sees him as a human being and respects him as such. After that if you still have problems, it goes on paper.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSgt Daniel d'Errico
0
0
0
This is the second time a question of this nature has been asked. So here goes. An E2 with less than simple intelligence tells you off ans blantantly refuses to do his assigned duty. Respondence #1. Remind him of his place in the pecking order of the military, he gets assigned to do a duty. Since he feels and voices his disrespect to you in no uncertain terms. Remind him he will do his assigned task in a polite manner. If he refuses again, take him over to the platoon/flight sgt and repeat the E2s assigned task in front of the platoon/flight sgt. Then inform said E2 that he will report for further duties after normal duty day is complete, for additional duty (ie, cleaning the latrines in the barracks, guard duty, etc.). If he refuses again, write him/her up and refer him/her to the company/squadron first sgt. Recommend that this individual be placed on extra duty of the first sgts preferance. Responce #2. Escort the E2 behind a seculded area and kick the crap out of him/her for insubordination and inform the first sgt that he slipped on a bar of soap.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT James Colbert
0
0
0
Well in the "old " army... prior to 2000, i would definitely have this private push up "sea level". Probably would be conselling statement and NJP. Probably buff floors for a week, cut grass, wash windshields in the motorpool, paint parking lines or it being winter snow shovel voluntold
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.