Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 3697
Quite simple. I take the individual to my office along with another senior leader and fill out the appropriate paperwork. We have tools to handle this. We counsel the individual and explain what will happen next. If they are still non compliant, then NJP is applied. When I was much younger I would have flown into a fit of rage and yelled a lot. As I have grown into senior leadership I have learned to first counsel, document , NJP, finally process for discharge. Not every individual is cut out to be in the military and the millennial generation have to be taught what honor and duty mean and they don't respond to "old school" methods.
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Unfortunately that is the the way it is right now with the policies from the last eight years and the culture changes. I do often have to remind this younger generation that when it comes time to fight you don't have time to ask why. This applies to both those under fire or flood onboard a ship. Yelling may gain compliance but leading by example in a consistent manner builds trust. As a leader you have to choose a path. Do you want them to follow willingly or forcibly. The first is a far better way.SGT Michael Glenn -
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I would inform the Marine that "a request is nothing but a polite order.Just because I said please doesn't mean it is up for debate." Complete the task, and we will talk afterwards. If the Marine is still feeling froggy, whatever the excuse, he is gonna be jumping!
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Remove him from the formation take them to my office and deal with him in private
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I would keep that Soldier standing fast and have another NCO present to protect all parties present.........because if the E-2 has the balls to state what they did in the first place, then they probably have the stones to scream abuse and what not.......and explain to them that they were provided a lawful order to execute their duties. Also, I would inform them that if this type of action happens again, then a recommendation for a Company Grade Article 15 will be submitted for disrespect to an NCO, failure to follow a lawful order, and willful dereliction of duty. And of course, I would have this done in a counseling form and also have all that was present that heard the E-2 say this, write up their narrative in a sworn statement.
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They would be cutting grass with scissors at the motor pool after work for rest of week.
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Immediately pull the soldier out of the formation (having the soldier stand by by while getting the rest of to work) Then issue a counseling statement, getting the Platoon Sgt involved if needed. This would be a ONE TIME ONLY warning. They do it again and I am going to put them in for an Article 15. I have done this a few times. (Usually it only takes one wake up call to get the soldier to wake up and smell the coffee). Most times between me and the Plt Sgt we were able to take care of things.
Every time we brought a soldier up for an Article 15 for this type of infraction, the commander would send it up the line for a field grade Article 15, if for no other reason than to send a message.
I am not talking about the usual moaning and groaning and bitching and whining. I am talking about the egregious stuff. In the Army everybody bitches and whines
Every time we brought a soldier up for an Article 15 for this type of infraction, the commander would send it up the line for a field grade Article 15, if for no other reason than to send a message.
I am not talking about the usual moaning and groaning and bitching and whining. I am talking about the egregious stuff. In the Army everybody bitches and whines
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When i wars a 18m year old PFC I wanted to know why a Buck Sergeant put me on filling sandbags. detail. He looked at me and said Y is a crooked letter now get up off your ass and move. This was in October 1967. I have no idea what form of motivation is available to Sergeants now. In basic it weas a Drill Sergeant telling you to step into his office for some special counseling.
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There are a few things I would know, if I were in this situation. First from the initial or previous counseling either I or my peers completed for this young military member there may be a situation causing this behavior. Second as stated from all leaders above the individual must be addressed immediately or as stated for this individual to remain behind with their direct line supervision so we can discuss in a smaller detail. Third as we progressed up in responsibility as directed line supervisors we were asked to provide personnel for specific duties as we knew our sections daily activities better than our leadership, as it should be. Finally if this individual subordinate would have never had any issue if his/her leadership were complete and consistent in their mission. No situation is ever exactly the same however if R-E-S-P-E-C-T is given then it is also earned. More than not if there is a breakdown in a unit’s discipline then there is an issue with respect. In the end Leaders never quit and Quitters never lead.
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I would explain that he will follow any orders hes given then keep an eye on him.
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Ask him if he wants to go back to Basic Training and stay there till his enlistment terminates
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That sum bitch would still be doing push ups today!
Oh wait, today's gentle and kind army would have apologized, gave him the day off and brought him cookies and milk before night night time..
Oh wait, today's gentle and kind army would have apologized, gave him the day off and brought him cookies and milk before night night time..
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Take them aside ask what's going on ? If same attitude nail them and don't back down or you'll play keeping control ask me how I know. I was a Newby PO3 and was miserable for 6 months
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Spot on Gunny. In my job as a Navy CMC, I would conduct DRBs - Disciplinary Review Boards. The purpose was to determine whether or not to place the member on report for their transgression and forwarding them up the chain to CO's Mast. My intent was that it not go that far, especially for a first offense. It was all up the them.
Said E2 would have been escorted by the squadron CMAA to his/her quarters to get into their Whites and appear at the end of my very long table. I would conduct a Personnel Inspection and dare them to have one thing out of place. Members in the room included the Department MCPO, Division LCPO and workcenter LPO. No officers allowed.
What followed is best described as "Old Fashioned Chief's Leadership". We weren't politically correct, we weren't kinder or gentler, we didn't care about their personal feelings towards their LPO. We cared about good order and discipline. Period. 98% figured it out and went on to become productive members of the squadron. I didn't lose sleep referring the other 2% - they earned the trip to see the boss. BTW, all deliberations were considered sensitive and the results were never disseminated. But they knew I knew.
All branches have different ways of dealing with these people. But you nailed it Gunny - deal with it immediately.
Thanks for your service!
Said E2 would have been escorted by the squadron CMAA to his/her quarters to get into their Whites and appear at the end of my very long table. I would conduct a Personnel Inspection and dare them to have one thing out of place. Members in the room included the Department MCPO, Division LCPO and workcenter LPO. No officers allowed.
What followed is best described as "Old Fashioned Chief's Leadership". We weren't politically correct, we weren't kinder or gentler, we didn't care about their personal feelings towards their LPO. We cared about good order and discipline. Period. 98% figured it out and went on to become productive members of the squadron. I didn't lose sleep referring the other 2% - they earned the trip to see the boss. BTW, all deliberations were considered sensitive and the results were never disseminated. But they knew I knew.
All branches have different ways of dealing with these people. But you nailed it Gunny - deal with it immediately.
Thanks for your service!
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Young “Senior E5” are you a Noncommissioned Officer or an E5? I don’t have much to make an opinion, but seems to me that you should look at yourself rather than look for support. In today’s Army we have new generation Soldiers that are having a hard time separating work from personal. If you hang out with your Soldiers they will have no respect for you, they will look at you like their “buddy”.
I have a dear friend that we both came in the Army at the same time, our first duty station was the same, but after while we lost contact. Years later I seen him again. I was still Vic when we seen each other after over 10 years, but at work I was 1SG and he was one of the SSG. That was a true friend that knew the difference without being told. Not once has to tell him “please at work call me 1SG” learn to separate both if you have to remain them, then look for another friends.
I have a dear friend that we both came in the Army at the same time, our first duty station was the same, but after while we lost contact. Years later I seen him again. I was still Vic when we seen each other after over 10 years, but at work I was 1SG and he was one of the SSG. That was a true friend that knew the difference without being told. Not once has to tell him “please at work call me 1SG” learn to separate both if you have to remain them, then look for another friends.
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I was a Spec4 platoon sergeant (yeah, I know. But that’s what they did) at Ft. Monmouth in ‘69. Had over 100 guys under me. I was fair and rather laidback. I fought for them in the orderly room and was stern when necessary. A few PFCs though they could fuck with me because of my demeanor. Mistake! KP on Thanksgiving was their reward. I wouldn’t put up with anyone’s shit. No one dared mess with me after that. Suggest that the bigmouth be made an example of. Nip it in the bud…
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Embarrassment in front of peers can be powerful for some dipsticks. Have everyone fall out except for PV0 Dipstick and embarrass him/her/they. You don't even have to yell as long as everyone can hear you.
Talking in formation is BS anyway unless you are called upon by the leader of the formation.
Talking in formation is BS anyway unless you are called upon by the leader of the formation.
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You must be in a different military from the one I served in (1975-1995). In my day, that didn't happen or NJP, here we come. My troops knew I would not ask them to do anything I hadn't done. As unpleasant or distasteful as it might have been, I had already been there. Insubordination can absolutely not be tolerated.
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