I am being told to go to PT by the command on only 4-5 hours of sleep. As a junior enlisted, how do I solve this problem?

Obviously you are a young SGT, to be a good leader you should open your mind and look at all options and see where things can be changed for the better of morale and care of your guys. It’s in our creed to live by, first and foremost you take care of your soldiers, end of story. This whole suck it up and move on mentality is ok when deployed and the mission has to be made, it doesn’t work for everything in garrison

SSG Lee Bostick - As I am not without sympathy for this soldier's plight--despite how it may seem--I went back and reread what that posted. There IS reason for them to be unhappy with the situation, and yes, the Specialist and those on the same shift are being screwed, and I could have showed some greater measure of sympathy for their condition. Sucky and unfair situations are replete in the military, and it happens to everyone. Nonetheless, the military is still a different animal than about anything in the civilian world, and for that reason, I still feel that they need to adapt their mental approach to the Army, which is very much in keeping with looking out for soldiers; and I'm not alone in that feeling. And while I don't think its a big deal, to many, it still comes off as rather unseemly to run to RP for the digital equivalent of the "barrack lawyer" for a rule or regulation.

This person needs (or needed, at the time this was posted) to work though the chain-of-command to address their concerns, and from the verbiage, I don't get the sense that is happening properly. I could have added that to my point and I didn't, so I'll own that one. Maybe they are working through their chain, and I'll gladly adjust my thoughts based on more information. Nonetheless, they need to be prepared to embrace this new suck, unfair or not, that the new 1SG and commander have given to their company.

Maybe it's from having cut my Army teeth in the Infantry where there was never any shortage of suck to embrace, I don't know. While no one was faulted for complaining in the barracks, the bay or the field, it was still a life that needed us to adapt to it, not the other way around, and while I'm extremist about it, that concept stuck with me. I get this person is not combat arms, fine, but the mentality to drive on despite the unfairness, still has to be there. If it isn't this suck, it will be the next suck, and except for extreme cases, in the long run changing the mental attitude to crappy Army situations (which don't last forever!) helps not just this soldier going forward, but those around them.

Lastly, if you're not a fan of my point-of-view on the matter, fair enough, but you're being rather presumptive. What is a "young NCO" in your subjective view? Does it reflect your age or your number of years in leadership as opposed to mine or someone else's?

While I was hardly a career NCO, in my lowly 8 years between the Army and Reserve I was in leadership positions for 6 of those years, and an NCO for over 4 of those, having left Uncle Sam's loving embrace 2 years ago at age 44. And this does not reflect the many years of civilian leadership roles I've held both before and after service. During my time in leadership (and I do include the unenviable position of being a SPC in a leadership role) I knew what it was to go to bat for my soldiers when needed; to provide for my soldiers when needed; to put a boot in my solders' ass when needed; and finally, to provide guidance (within my ability to do so) or seek it out for them when needed. In doing so, I actually found some tangible success in it, and that success was rooted in the success of those I was responsible for.

Finally,,,,, Thank You, SGT. Tracy. Wake-Up America, this is the "GREATEST" FIGHTING "MACHINE" in the world !! P. T. is used to keep your "BODY" & "MIND" & "SOUL" in Tip-Top Fighting condition to do The "ONLY" job Uncle Sam ask's You's To Do and that is to Serve & Protect The United States of America !!!!!!!!

SGT Dave Tracy - Your first comment was 'young NCO' and hot, emotional, not thought out, so SSG Bostick's comment is not without merit, however, your followup was much more rational and shows proper leadership.
This is NOT a field deployment, it a hospital where the mission is to keep people alive, a goal better accomplished if the staff is taken care of properly. We train as we fight, sure, but we should also be looking at how we BEST accomplish the mission, whatever the mission might be, while still looking out for the welfare of our troops. This is just PT, it's not rocket science. Also, shift work is not a new invention. Most places I was posted required shift work and pretty much every shift had their own PT session for the same problem related here. Each session was on the schedule and had a training routine to follow. It didn't matter if the team had +/-50 people (day shift) 20 (evenings), 10 (regular mids) or 4 (like one weird shift I was on).
Our civilian and joint service command had pretty much full say-so when it came to demanding our time for accomplishing our mission. Fortunately, our CDR and 1ST were intelligent and rational and worked with and around the higher priority requirements of the mission in order to help us accomplish our Army training and administrative tasks - as well as personal needs (like eating, sleeping, seeing the spouse, whatever) too. That was excellent leadership.

As you can see.... 1stSGT. Phillips, we came from the day's of being a "SOLDIER" was a Professional Pride & Duty For Our Country kind of Mentality !! Today's Armed Force's (Great As They Are) are "NO" where near our State of Mind !!

Thank You For Your Service,
SGT. HCM555

This is the kind of thinking that led to 2 Navy mishaps within a month of each other. It sucks that this was your experience, and I’m sorry that it was, but it was wrong of your leadership to expect it of you. It’s not just inconvenient, it leads to exhaustion Which proved fatal in the incidents I described above. Instead of expecting people to “suck it up,”
It is on leadership To develop sustainable schedules so we don’t lose anyone else unnecessarily

I would have loved to have worked for you, Buenteo! <sarcasm>

LTC Raymond Buenteo Oh of course “sir” this is why is NCO’s laugh and say officers need to keep a chair warm and do paperwork and let NCO’s handle the rest. Did you ever stop to think that there is always something going on during normal duty days and it is almost
Impossible to get that time uninterrupted? Maybe in the perfect world but I never seen it happen in the military. There will be the inevitable phone call to come in and do some mandatory safety brief and many other things. See, I believe that to be a truly good leader you must take everything into consideration and open the mind to many different options. Now when deployed I worked the dog piss outta my guys but not one time did one of them ever not go to sleep before me or wake up before me too.

SPOT ON Robert

FYI my friend SSG Robert Webster I voted up your response since SSG Thomas Barry voted you down.

Actually, company command has no say in hours that soldiers who work in a hospital works. None whatsoever. In fact, the command of a MEDDAC is more for admin and logistics, and PT is one of those administrative events.

SFC Corey Julian - Not medical, but similar situation where my work command outranked my company command. The mission came first and they did not stand for any BS when it came to messing with mission-essential resources, ie. soldiers, for stupid reasons. Fortunately, I usually had good commanders at the (administrative) company level who were capable of understanding that and accomplishing THEIR mission by fitting these administrative details into our schedules in a way that fully supported us, no matter how weird our shifts were.

That has fuck all to do with an unnecessary PT placed at the worst possible time slot it can. How hard could it possibly be to have a PT time that is 1 hour before second shift PT? Ohhh, that's right. Suck it up buttercup because someone who didn't understand your shift made a decision. Suck it up because you weren't even an afterthought when the plan was made. Suck it up because although there is a perfectly acceptable solution that fixes the problem, we shouldn't because it would make sense for her.

Deployed life is very different than garrison. In garrison its 530 pt and then 9-5 for almost everyone. Why make stateside suck like a deployment? It leads good soldiers to get out where they can get paid more and the suck is less.

According to the post, this guy is not missing out on sleep; he is simply griping because the PT isn't at a convenient time for him. Further, for those who are commenting that this is a medical guy and PT isn't important for him to do his job: BS! The military doesn't need medical personnel who are a liability due to poor physical condition; doesn't need medical personnel who are not able to lift or drag wounded personnel under fire.

Yep, you do that -- when it is needed and appropriate. But presumably your unit doesn't make that your regular daily schedule. Right?

THAT seems to be the point that all the Suck-It-Up responses are ignoring.

I've been in combat, where we regularly worked from before first light until well past last light, plus a 2 or 3 hour shift every night -- we did what we needed to do and we did it day after day, night after night, for months without a break; but that's what was needed then and there. I've been in the field with schedules not much different, but for as long at a time. And I've been in non-combat units in CONUS where 0800-1700 was a typical work day.

No one in their right mind has a problem with occasionally losing a bit of sleep to military necessity - even if some of those necessary interruptions are just poor planning. But equally no one expects a regular duty schedule that doesn't include a reasonable block of contiguous off time in peacetime and especially not just because a new 1SG threw a hissy fit when not enough people showed up for his formation one day.

PO2 Joseph Fast I believe shipboard operational tempo is 8 on 8 off. I agree that this doesn't leave a lot of sleep time. This soldier was working a straight 8 hour shift. They would have had 10 hours of free time before their next shift after PT. Training shortcuts and personnel shortages were big part of the 7th Fleet's problem, too.

CPT Lawrence Cable - Edit: (umm no, shipboard tempo is far from 8 on 8 off. When moral is really low, generally you have senior chief yelling at everyone about being lucky to get 6 hours of sleep and if we did get 6 hours we should be grateful.)

Look with all due respect. Retention rate is low. You don't make a soldier drive into work 2 times a day. As a leader you find a solution that works for everyone. I literally had 2 solutions that would work and I found them within 5 minutes of reading her post. And those training shortcuts and personnel shortages led to a lot of people dying. If retention rates were higher and people weren't forced to do back to back to back to back deployments, we wouldn't have had those deaths. Granted, I was fine with being whored out to another ship and going right back out, but I was on the aircraft carrier. Anything is better than that (even when in it's in port). Yes, I'm saying it. Being transferred to another ship to go back out to sea is better than being attached to the GW even while it's in port. But that is the only exception. If any other ship was mine, I would have been mad to lose my port time.

You really wouldn't force a sailor/soldier/marine to drive into work 2 times a day would you? Once being half way through a sleep cycle? That's just a large waste of fuel and serves no purpose worth anything (unless you count an ego as worth something).

PO2 Joseph Fast - My son served with 7th Forward on the Bonhomme Richard and the Essex, so I am aware of the problems with personnel shortages, training that was shortcut, which seems most prevalent in the new officers, and an opt tempo that put a strain on the ships and sailors. Heard all that direct. However, I was enlisted and commissioned Infantry, coming off duty at 12 midnight and going to PT at 5am was not that uncommon. Now granted the emphasis on physical fitness is a bit different in the Infantry, but from someone on the Combat Arms side of things, having to arrange your off time around PT is routine. This soldier did not have to go back on duty again until 1600hrs, so there was 10 hours after PT before the next duty period. That doesn't approach the same kind of schedule the average Grunt does, and from my son's description, not the same as on shipboard either.

CPT Lawrence Cable - You should realize something about not being deployed. You have responsibilities that you don't have while deployed. While you're deployed you either have your stuff taken care of or someone to take care of them for you. But while not deployed you have non military related life to take care of. OUR LIFE IS NOT THE MILITARY. That is only true while deployed. So the real issue here is you're not understanding what was happening to the woman. I'll shift the time so you can understand. You REALLY need to understand the part about taking care of your personal life WHILE THINGS ARE OPEN.

So you can understand this, this is a time while not deployed meaning you've already went through your deployment and you're lucky enough to not get redeployed. Now so you understand where the strain comes in because of night shift. Imagine you work 0800 - 1600, but you live in bizzaro land where NOTHING for taking care of your life is open between ????. Now when you get off work at 1600, your commander excepts you to drive back into work 2130 to work out. You could easily work out 1600 when you get off or at 0700 before you work, but your only options are are 0800 (you can't cause you're working) so you have to pointlessly work out at 2130 every day. Now here is the kicker. NOTHING is open from 1600-2400. Nothing opens up until 0100. I know this sounds stupid, but as someone who was night shift every bit of shore duty I had, I understand how day shift neither understands nor give a fuck that we don't get sleep because "you won't get sleep when deployed, so suck it up buttercup". So now at this point you either take care of life or you get uninterrupted sleep. Understand that your night shift isn't going away until you deploy again and don't get sleep then either. I spent my entire time in the military with a bunch of assholes who didn't let me sleep when I wasn't deployed just to not get sleep while deployed because of the up tempo. So yeah, in that scenario, you could get your sleep after the PT, BUT WHY! That is the time period things are open so you can function at home. We aren't deployed, we have to take care of ourselves. A smart leader would let you sleep while day to day taking care of things are closed, so you can wake up and take care of anything you need. It is beyond pointless to designate your entire sleep cycle during the only time you can take care of things.

Now my situation was different. I was able to PT every day at my choice. That was nice. But not one command didn't wake me up multiple times a week for some day shift bullcrap that really could have waited, but they wanted numbers or just forgot to tell us during our shift. That and my shifts were never shorter than 12 hours.

I'm out. I have 100 reasons for getting out even though I planned on making this a career. Ultimately, I'm out because 7th fleet leadership failed me as hard as any leadership can fail a sailor. Thankfully I had a great sailor who went out of his way to help me and save my life when my leadership failed me, but it wasn't enough to retain me. We need to treat our sailors and soldiers better. We don't need to make people weak, but we need to think things through logically and use critical thinking to solve easy problems.

They are changing all right but not in a good way. It is scary to think of what the Army may be like in 20 years.

1LT Shaun Ray if we have 68K females charging machine gun bunkers, we have bigger problems. Why can't medic units be more autonomous and utilize non-standard PT hours? As a scout, the answer has been prescribed in this thread: suck it up and drive on. I want our medics to have high morale, so they can patch me up when I hit an IED. I want them to want to be at work, not hiding behind the sham shield, half-assing a job.

How many times did the COL call you in for a friendly (for varying values of friendly) chat about why your company's retention sucked?

Well stated!

Thanks lol

Isn't patient care the mission as well though

So sacrificing patient safety for your commanders ego, nice.

SGT Adam Crow That’s the hospital deputy director. His expectation is that we will at minimum meet the standard and if my company can’t figure out a PT schedule and enforce it he’ll do it.