Posted on Jun 12, 2019
I am being told to go to PT by the command on only 4-5 hours of sleep. As a junior enlisted, how do I solve this problem?
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We have a new 1SG and new commander. The 1SG noticed one day that only 5 people in the whole company showed up to PT. Now he put out to all the platoon Sergeants that everyone must show up to PT at either the 0530 formation or the 1600 formation.
However, my section is the only one in the hospital that has a 1600-0000 shift. I am being told by my first line that the 1SG says that I have to be at the morning formation, no exceptions.
I don’t want to sound like I’m whining but at the same time it’s unfortunate that I have to explain to myself as to why this isn’t right.
As a junior enlisted I do feel stuck.
How do I bring this issue up and solve this effectively and professionally?
Also: Do you know of any Army Regulations that can support anything?
However, my section is the only one in the hospital that has a 1600-0000 shift. I am being told by my first line that the 1SG says that I have to be at the morning formation, no exceptions.
I don’t want to sound like I’m whining but at the same time it’s unfortunate that I have to explain to myself as to why this isn’t right.
As a junior enlisted I do feel stuck.
How do I bring this issue up and solve this effectively and professionally?
Also: Do you know of any Army Regulations that can support anything?
Edited 6 y ago
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 1688
Talk to your 1st line supervisor about modifying PT for the affected soldiers based on shift assignment. Sergeants get paid to take care of their troops.
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SSG (Join to see)
Great answer CPT Parr. To easy for supervisors to relay that information to the Platoon Sergeant so that he/ she may talk with 1SG and commander for an exception. To easy to have an NCO on that shift conduct PT prior to the 1600 work call. And for accountability have a sign in roster that is turned into the 1SG on a daily basis. For those in the post that have never worked in a hospital you don’t understand the intricacies of different shifts. I have been in hospitals that have tried to do mandatory PT and I can tell you it didn’t last long. What is gonna happen is higher level command will get involved, and/or you will get and IG complaint. It is to simple to let NCO’s handle this at the lowest level. All NCO’s should know how to conduct PT. Come on everybody don’t be so narrow minded to easy to improvise and still complete the mission. One other thing. Most medical personnel in hospitals are conducting a real time mission everyday. As a retired NCO whom spent time in TDA units and hospitals I can tell you it’s two different worlds. I have deployed with a CSH and a coward surgical team and how your work is stateside and vs. deployed are not indicators of how you carry out your the mission when deployed. When you are talking about saving lives you be surprised how seriously our service members take it. For those of you that have deployed you know what I am saying.
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Salute sharply, carry your ass to PT and suck it up buttercup. I can remember several times of getting no sleep for days. You do what you have to.
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How many people in your company have different shifts? Not just your section. If there is a significant number, perhaps another PT formation could be added? Or maybe the afternoon formation could be moved up an hour or so for second shift soldiers. Several times while I was on active duty, I had odd working times. Quite frankly we were forgotten about when schedules were made because the 1SG didn't see much of us. Take a plan to your section leader and see what happens.
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SPC Davis,
I’ll flip this back to you repackaging what others have said in other posts.
First, be prepared to propose an alternative solution other than just not doing what the chain of command has ordered. Be detailed. Include DFAC hours etc. in your new proposed schedule along with any other influences as appropriate. Be passionate, but show emotional intelligence. Stick to tangible needs such as patient care as was mentioned, DFAC hours (unless your shift is receiving BAS) and the like. Be prepared to be a leader that helps the chain of command achieve the objective (accountability, less APFT failures, etc.) so you must get to the root cause as to WHY the chain of command chose this course of action. If your long term plans include continuing to serve, then I’d encourage you to volunteer to lead the solution. Small leadership roles early in your career can pay dividends later on, and I can almost guarantee that in your career field that you will encounter this again, at which point you will be prepared to offer a solution which has proven itself previously. Enlist the assistance of your NCOIC or OIC to help develop your plan. They have likely “been there, done that” as the saying goes. Finally, be prepared to not get the answer you’d like. It happens, no matter what ones rank. Keep in mind, your proposed solution must address the chain of command’s needs or it is a non-starter. Put the effort forth!
I’ll flip this back to you repackaging what others have said in other posts.
First, be prepared to propose an alternative solution other than just not doing what the chain of command has ordered. Be detailed. Include DFAC hours etc. in your new proposed schedule along with any other influences as appropriate. Be passionate, but show emotional intelligence. Stick to tangible needs such as patient care as was mentioned, DFAC hours (unless your shift is receiving BAS) and the like. Be prepared to be a leader that helps the chain of command achieve the objective (accountability, less APFT failures, etc.) so you must get to the root cause as to WHY the chain of command chose this course of action. If your long term plans include continuing to serve, then I’d encourage you to volunteer to lead the solution. Small leadership roles early in your career can pay dividends later on, and I can almost guarantee that in your career field that you will encounter this again, at which point you will be prepared to offer a solution which has proven itself previously. Enlist the assistance of your NCOIC or OIC to help develop your plan. They have likely “been there, done that” as the saying goes. Finally, be prepared to not get the answer you’d like. It happens, no matter what ones rank. Keep in mind, your proposed solution must address the chain of command’s needs or it is a non-starter. Put the effort forth!
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All the inspiration I can share with you is "sweat more now, bleed less later"
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SSG(P) Jeffrey Elwood
I don't recall hearing that in the entire history of the world anyone ever dying from lack of sleep. But, on the other hand, many have died from being unprepared. I think your NCO's are just trying to make sure you don't die for your country, but that you'll be able to make the other SOB die for his.
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Best advice I can give, (and I'm not trying to be a smartass), is to just suck it up and deal with it, your a soldier.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Why needlessly suck it up when there are, or can be options? Telling people to "suck it up" for an entire enlistment because it's too hard to be good leaders is why those same people get out of dodge when their term is up.
It used to be that we took care of our own. Now we just say "back in my day..."
It used to be that we took care of our own. Now we just say "back in my day..."
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Suck it up butter cup. You are whining. PT is required to maintain readiness standards. You’re in the Army, not some fancy social club.
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The solution is to get your ass up and go to PT.
Ignore his directive and I’m sure that the 1SG can accommodate your request for more beauty sleep as a civilian.
Ignore his directive and I’m sure that the 1SG can accommodate your request for more beauty sleep as a civilian.
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As a former enlisted and officer: get your scrawny ass off that bunk and go to PT. Push yourself until you puke. It's part of the job.
Due to an admin glitch, in 1985, when I graduated from OCS, I had to take a Pre-Commissioning PT test immediately after returning from a 12 day FTX. I had basically not slept in 12 days more than 2 hours at a time. It was my final commissioning PT test: passed it. Likewise, at your training commands and your unit, you will always have to push through when you don't like it. It's part of what being a soldier is all about.
Due to an admin glitch, in 1985, when I graduated from OCS, I had to take a Pre-Commissioning PT test immediately after returning from a 12 day FTX. I had basically not slept in 12 days more than 2 hours at a time. It was my final commissioning PT test: passed it. Likewise, at your training commands and your unit, you will always have to push through when you don't like it. It's part of what being a soldier is all about.
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SPC Dave Behrens
You're comparing "those times when the mission demanded little to no sleep and I had to suck it up" to "for some reason the command made work shift for some people with PT to be scheduled 5 1/2 hours after that shift ends. Every single day." I'm pretty sure if you worked your standard shift and were then called in 5 1/2 hours later every night, you'd question the need for that scheduling.
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SSG Robert Webster
CPT Michael E. Cain - "Back in the day?" And when did you mobilize for DS/DS? And what was the huge machinery in your unit? The biggest part of the HAWK missile system that I remember was the radar unit.
And 'back in the day' in most units with 'good leadership' the soldiers described with this issue would have been given a third option for PT, with the 1SG periodically checking.
And 'back in the day' in most units with 'good leadership' the soldiers described with this issue would have been given a third option for PT, with the 1SG periodically checking.
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CPT Michael E. Cain
SSG Robert Webster - I was in the forming HAWK Battalion (2-263 ADA) in the SCArNG during DS/DS. If my memory is correct, we were on a 4 hour call up. Again, from memory, I believe we were originally tasked with personnel replacements for the 18th Airborne Corps HAWK assets, for when the expected casualties started. Luckily, that was the closest I ever got to combat.
That being said, I served in a Duster unit in Virginia, (D-3-111 ADA), and the 2-120 Mechanized Infantry, attached to the 4ID. I promise you, we trained at night, around large moving equipment with little to no working NV, and when sleep deprived.
In the "real world", several of the senior NCO's in this discussion have already proposed a decent solution. Those on back shift can have an alternate PT schedule. Everyone does PT, and it doesn't interfere with their sleep schedules.
Did you and I work together at some point?
That being said, I served in a Duster unit in Virginia, (D-3-111 ADA), and the 2-120 Mechanized Infantry, attached to the 4ID. I promise you, we trained at night, around large moving equipment with little to no working NV, and when sleep deprived.
In the "real world", several of the senior NCO's in this discussion have already proposed a decent solution. Those on back shift can have an alternate PT schedule. Everyone does PT, and it doesn't interfere with their sleep schedules.
Did you and I work together at some point?
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SSG Robert Webster
CPT Michael E. Cain - No, we did not work or serve together at some point.
Number 2 - You need to correct your profile on at least one point - Iraq did not invade Kuwait until 2 August 1990.
Now as far as your comment about sleep deprivation around heavy equipment that you were familiar with. Well I know that during my Basic Training in 1976 at Fort Knox, then home of the Armor School that 'ground guide training' was mandatory for safety reasons at night; and then when I went to Infantry AIT at Fort Benning (again in 1976) that 'ground guide training' was also mandatory during the M113 training, also for safety reasons. And when I arrived at Fort Bragg and the 82nd Airborne Division, when we had exercises with the 4/68th Armor (or 3/73 Armor/Cav) with M551s it was mandatory to have ground guides when operating around dismounted troops at night. So I find it hard to understand your point in that regard. I do know that back during that period that when people failed to follow those safety guidelines that there were an inordinate number of preventable injuries and deadly incidents.
The problem illustrated in this situation is that what should be an acceptable 'alternate' PT schedule is not available.
And as far as a number of the suggestions given so far, most do not even consider the ramifications of a bad lab result due to sleep deprivation and how that would impact a patient, the soldier, and the soldier's chain of supervision and command. With that in mind, most of the answers given are total BS.
Number 2 - You need to correct your profile on at least one point - Iraq did not invade Kuwait until 2 August 1990.
Now as far as your comment about sleep deprivation around heavy equipment that you were familiar with. Well I know that during my Basic Training in 1976 at Fort Knox, then home of the Armor School that 'ground guide training' was mandatory for safety reasons at night; and then when I went to Infantry AIT at Fort Benning (again in 1976) that 'ground guide training' was also mandatory during the M113 training, also for safety reasons. And when I arrived at Fort Bragg and the 82nd Airborne Division, when we had exercises with the 4/68th Armor (or 3/73 Armor/Cav) with M551s it was mandatory to have ground guides when operating around dismounted troops at night. So I find it hard to understand your point in that regard. I do know that back during that period that when people failed to follow those safety guidelines that there were an inordinate number of preventable injuries and deadly incidents.
The problem illustrated in this situation is that what should be an acceptable 'alternate' PT schedule is not available.
And as far as a number of the suggestions given so far, most do not even consider the ramifications of a bad lab result due to sleep deprivation and how that would impact a patient, the soldier, and the soldier's chain of supervision and command. With that in mind, most of the answers given are total BS.
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