Posted on Jun 12, 2019
I am being told to go to PT by the command on only 4-5 hours of sleep. As a junior enlisted, how do I solve this problem?
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We have a new 1SG and new commander. The 1SG noticed one day that only 5 people in the whole company showed up to PT. Now he put out to all the platoon Sergeants that everyone must show up to PT at either the 0530 formation or the 1600 formation.
However, my section is the only one in the hospital that has a 1600-0000 shift. I am being told by my first line that the 1SG says that I have to be at the morning formation, no exceptions.
I don’t want to sound like I’m whining but at the same time it’s unfortunate that I have to explain to myself as to why this isn’t right.
As a junior enlisted I do feel stuck.
How do I bring this issue up and solve this effectively and professionally?
Also: Do you know of any Army Regulations that can support anything?
However, my section is the only one in the hospital that has a 1600-0000 shift. I am being told by my first line that the 1SG says that I have to be at the morning formation, no exceptions.
I don’t want to sound like I’m whining but at the same time it’s unfortunate that I have to explain to myself as to why this isn’t right.
As a junior enlisted I do feel stuck.
How do I bring this issue up and solve this effectively and professionally?
Also: Do you know of any Army Regulations that can support anything?
Edited 6 y ago
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 1688
MAJ Wilson and CW3 Storm have it right. Even though I believe you are not being treated with appropriate consideration by your COC, I would offer you some friendly advise: You must choose your battles. It is not wise to engage in every battle that you can win, only the ones that are worth it. SFC Davila was correct in his assertion that on deployments and other high OPTEMPO assignments it is not unusual to have to live on regular 4-5 hours sleep. It is a part of being in the Army. I do not agree with inflicting unnecessary pain/inconsideration on anyone of any rank. I am not your commander. Never forget that no NCO likes to have a soldier go over his/her head, especially on a subject that is near and dear to the 1SG's heart. They can make life more difficult for you in ways that will stand up to scrutiny. If you are ready to follow through and feel it is worth it, dive in... especially if there are several of you who share the schedule and are willing to be a part of the solution. CAVEAT: If you are not willing and committed to take the heat and suspect that you might back off at the first sign of significant "resistance" as you work up the chain, DON'T EVEN START the process. Back to Obligations: Do you have to follow orders? Certainly. Do you get to choose which (lawful) orders you you obey? No. Do you have recourse? In this case, likely yes. You will need to go up the NCO chain through your PSG until you get to the 1SG. Chances are that your PSG will talk to the 1SG and they will work it out to everyone's benefit. Why? You will ask your PSG for written counseling for that order. Ask him/her that since the 1SG is the one behind the PT push, does s/he think that the CSM might be able to help. Let him/her know that you are prepared to go on to the 1SG and request to see the CSM and don't want to go empty handed. If the first CSM in the chain does not help, ask for the next one up. No one from the Squad leader, PSG, 1SG nor the new CO will be happy about that prospective visit. It is possible that the CO will hear about it and change the order also. Back to a earlier point: Don't start something you are not willing to finish...in the long term if you quit before it is resolved, you will regret potentially picking a fight to which your are not totally committed....and as before, you may win a battle and lose a war. Good Luck! The army seldom puts stupid people in medical MOSs. Think through what you should do and ask an NCO in your chain for advice...then do what you feel you are best served to do.
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Why not ask the 1SG to consider moving the afternoon PT formation up one hour to 1500. Your crew can attend then and go to work and the daytime shift might get to go home an hour earlier. Win, Win. Best of luck!
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MSgt J D McKee
The suck is immaterial. Any military without suck would have to invent some to inure troops to war. War sucks, practice makes perfect.
Whim. Some asshole's whim can ruin your life and get you killed even, and it's just what they wanted to do that day, nothing important.
On the same lines, anyone whom has ever , at their first staff meeting or commander's call when taking over a unit, listed their "pet peeves" like they are revealing the 10 commandments and then enforced their whim with punishments, is a douche.
You are showing your fear and incompetence. We already know who the fucking boss is, that's what rank is for. Nobody gives a shit what your vision is or that you are slightly more militarily effective than Patton in your own mind.
The next step generally taken by the douche? Why, pointless and unneeded change, of course, especially if it lowers unit morale and serves no legit purpose. That's even better than needed change, because it was a whim, and they did it.
Junior officers and junior NCO's are far worse at this. Because this is the age and time in service they learn their legend is only in their own mind, or that there is nothing to be afraid of, depending which way their psyche swings.
Whim. Some asshole's whim can ruin your life and get you killed even, and it's just what they wanted to do that day, nothing important.
On the same lines, anyone whom has ever , at their first staff meeting or commander's call when taking over a unit, listed their "pet peeves" like they are revealing the 10 commandments and then enforced their whim with punishments, is a douche.
You are showing your fear and incompetence. We already know who the fucking boss is, that's what rank is for. Nobody gives a shit what your vision is or that you are slightly more militarily effective than Patton in your own mind.
The next step generally taken by the douche? Why, pointless and unneeded change, of course, especially if it lowers unit morale and serves no legit purpose. That's even better than needed change, because it was a whim, and they did it.
Junior officers and junior NCO's are far worse at this. Because this is the age and time in service they learn their legend is only in their own mind, or that there is nothing to be afraid of, depending which way their psyche swings.
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Sorry SPC Davis, not a whole lot of professional responses in this forum to your question. Read your regs, but most likely you'll have ton break up your sleep into two 4 hour sessions. I see this post was a year ago but the replies from people that are supposed to take care of soldiers is disheartening. PT and living in a 24 hour training environment is more important than strong healthy soldiers ready to deploy. Guess that's why people from other units get cherry picked and attached to units that have a bunch of beat up soldiers that can't maintain because of ridiculous ego centric policies. I feel for ya. Get your experience and be a professional civilian, they'll love you in the real world.
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If you get deployed, 4-5 hrs. of sleep will be your LAST concern. It's time your generation grew up and joined the real world. I spent 16 1/2 months in Viet Nam, on duty from 18:00 to o:600 6 - 7 nights a week. I was to sleep during the day. On base, I was on the 2nd floor, 3 feet from a tin roof. The temps. in the bay was 130 - 135 degrees! Not much sleep there, I would spend most of my days in the NCO club where it was air conditioned. When I left country on 27 Oct, 1969, it was a COOL day. At 14:00, it was only 103 degrees with humidity ALWAYS in the upper 90's. That feels a whole lot hotter than some dry dessert. As of this date, I'm 73 yrs. old, I STILL DON'T GET MORE THAN 4-5 hrs. of sleep per night. I was a Journeyman Lineman for over 40 years, when you go on "storm", you're on 16 off 8 /day, 'till the Utility releases you.
When my son was 17, he joined the Army. When he was in school, his mother would get him up, on off school days, he would get up at the crack of noon. Before he departed for the Army, I sat him down and had a little talk with him. I told him once you get in the Army, your ass is theirs! No more sleeping in. If you don't get up at Revelly, your in deep dodo! They don't play games. Don't try to beat the system, they've seen it all and know how to take care of you. Keep that in mind.
At that time, the NCOIC could latterly knock your d..k in the dirt, so you did NOT want to draw undue attention to your self. My advice is to grow a pair, man up, and do as required!
When my son was 17, he joined the Army. When he was in school, his mother would get him up, on off school days, he would get up at the crack of noon. Before he departed for the Army, I sat him down and had a little talk with him. I told him once you get in the Army, your ass is theirs! No more sleeping in. If you don't get up at Revelly, your in deep dodo! They don't play games. Don't try to beat the system, they've seen it all and know how to take care of you. Keep that in mind.
At that time, the NCOIC could latterly knock your d..k in the dirt, so you did NOT want to draw undue attention to your self. My advice is to grow a pair, man up, and do as required!
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Suck it up like we all did and do it. Ether that or puke out for the good of the service!
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If you needed sleep, Uncle Sam would issue it to you. You get to complain about it that’s your role as a junior enlisted. (Google terminal lance). As I was told, “DO YOU NEED A STRAW” Why? “TO SUCK IT UP”.
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Wait till your my age, your lucky to sleep that much. Honestly, it shocks me to hear you complain about that. All I will say.
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We worked a Port & Starboard ;Before we were dismissed for are 24 off we did PT & junk on bunk. Suck it up , part of the regimentation ; what did you sign up for ROSE GARDEN ? SF.
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What has happened to the Army? When I was in, PT was not optional. Rain, sun, or shine, we did PT. The only way to get out of it, was to have a note from the doctor, called a "profile". Once when I re-enlisted, I had to do PT in the dead of winter, even though the only PT uniform I had were those thin black shorts and that grey army T-shirt. Froze my ass off that year. If I had the money to spare, I would have just bought the uniform, but that's the reason I re-enlisted. I think you should just stick with it. It will only make you harder.
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Suck it up buttercup. We stand midwatch, get up, muster at 7. Lucky to get an hour before watch and 2-3 after. Man up. (75 year old Gunners Mate, 'Nam 2 years.
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No issue, just do what you are ordered to do. Oh my the enemy are attacking but I only got four hours of sleep. Get your snowflake butt out there or do like SFC Michael suggested GTFO. Better still get your ruck on and do a twenty mile out and back. MMCS(SW)(SS) USN ret.
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Has it changed this much since 2005? we ran after all nighters reeking of kimche and soju
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LCDR (Join to see)
That was your choice. She doesn't even have that opportunity. Seriously, imagine working 07-1600 and then being recalled at 2100. Every night. You were getting soju (man I miss that stuff), but she's working.
If she's going to pay the drunkard's price, she ought to at least have the chance to earn it. For now it's just suck because leaders coudln't be bothered to lead.
If she's going to pay the drunkard's price, she ought to at least have the chance to earn it. For now it's just suck because leaders coudln't be bothered to lead.
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SCPO Ken Badoian
An old chief once told me if you play the game you gotta pay the piper. Been there and done that but always managed to show up at division quarters, Navy term for muster of working group (division), ready for the day's work. Working 07-1600 where was that? O530 revillee to whatever, don't like it don't ship over. Sleep deperatition is in the mind. Ship and job first, snowflakes. Twelve hours on and twelve hours off in condition two on the gunline on a Destroyer (DDG), Six on Six off for 26 weeks - short handed watcherstanders. Worst of it on your six off there usually was an all hands evolution, refuel, unrep. drills, etc. Officers could hity their staterooms, CPO's there mess but us PO1's and below, usually our bunks except if there were 80 men in the compartment, kinda noise. When I made CPO (E7) a little better but not much. WHat would happen in combat? Hey PLA, Ruissians, North Koreans, Iranians, hold on I am sleep. Live, Train, and Drill as you would fight. If not you might not be around to Bitch. MMCS(SW)(SS) USN Ret.
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LCDR (Join to see)
SCPO Ken Badoian - Sounds like a shitty deployment. But we're not deployed all the time (even though it sometimes seems like it) and even when we are deployed, a good chain of command thinks about what they're making their Sailors do. I've gone to war with Engineering because they chose to run drills in my crews' berthing, day-after-day, kicking night check out.
The fact is, a lot of bad ideas have made their way into the Navy in the past several decades... but also some good ones. We've realized that treating our Sailors like crap doesn't lead to the retention of good Sailors - the ones who are high-performing and know they have options on the outside. I've seen too many of them work their asses off, but when their enlistment was over, there was no way in hell they were sticking around. Why would they?
We've also learned from the Surface Navy's recent history that there IS a price to pay when it comes to sleep deprivation. Our manning requirements mean we can't eliminate it, but we can at least choose not to aggravate it.
The fact is, a lot of bad ideas have made their way into the Navy in the past several decades... but also some good ones. We've realized that treating our Sailors like crap doesn't lead to the retention of good Sailors - the ones who are high-performing and know they have options on the outside. I've seen too many of them work their asses off, but when their enlistment was over, there was no way in hell they were sticking around. Why would they?
We've also learned from the Surface Navy's recent history that there IS a price to pay when it comes to sleep deprivation. Our manning requirements mean we can't eliminate it, but we can at least choose not to aggravate it.
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SCPO Ken Badoian
I agree but maybe you gotta play real world. I think it is the level of professionalism in todays Navy. But I guess just sitting there and starring at a scope, electronic boards, etc. would be boring. I also agree treating our sailors like professionals downm to the lowest level. The Marines are starting to relize it and the USN shpould be more the RN - I fell they are the most professional of the Western sea services. But also they have dep pride in the "Andrew" something that is missing in the USN. How many sailors do you know see wearing rheir white hats cocked over one eye, salty, and strutting or swaggerying with pride. It starts in the CPO quarters. When I was aan instructor in the LDO/Warrent officers course iat SWOS Newport our XO would come in a give a lecture on MBWA - manage by walking around. Get your butts out of the cpo mess, staterooms, and wardroom and at least daily if not more make a tour of your spaces and do not be affriad if you see something else, from another division, say something to the DO, CPO, or department head. Don't cop a dime. Keep upthe excelent observation Commander.
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Your a Soldier, deal with it, the question is why are you only getting 4-5 hours of sleep? If your in a field like a Medical MOS and work in shifts, then the unit should adjust times for PT hours, but it is the Soldiers doing to get adequate rest/sleep, everything is time management and it’s on you how you use your time, what more important, going out, playing video games, drinking or getting the much needed sleep to function throughout the day.
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