Posted on Jun 29, 2021
Is a CSM also wrong if they start publicly chewing out a LT, and the LT then locks up the CSM?
34.7K
701
208
101
101
0
Edit:
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
Posted in these groups: 
Professional Development
Respect
Professional Development Respect
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 128
94
94
0
I have actually never seen or even heard of a CSM chewing up a junior leader in front of Soldiers. I've definitely seen a few say, "Hey LT, come over for a minute" and have a mentorship moment with them
(94)
(0)
TSgt Shawn Qualley
I saw it once in Germany. A Captain wanted a white board that was being used by a CMS. He told her she could not have it, but she had some civilians take it on a weekend. Well, when the chief came to working on Monday it hit the fan. He walked into her office shut the door and 10 min later walked out with his white board. She came out of her office and went to the bathroom and you could tell she had been crying. Not sure what he said to her but I bet she gained a new respect for CMS.
(4)
(0)
TSgt (Join to see)
SSG Douglas Espinosa - You state "Majority of times all I saw was a professional CSM taking a young LT to the side and mentor the young Officer"
Have you yet realized the other disrespectful times it was just an E9.
Have you yet realized the other disrespectful times it was just an E9.
(0)
(0)
SGT M C
TSgt Shawn Qualley - Well now it just goes to prove that Saying there is no difference between a horse chestnut and a chestnut horse doesn't make it so!
(0)
(0)
TSgt David Marti
TSgt Shawn Qualley
I seem to recall a similar result. Only it was with a full service dress inspection on a Saturday morning for all Comm Center personnel. That only happened once!
I seem to recall a similar result. Only it was with a full service dress inspection on a Saturday morning for all Comm Center personnel. That only happened once!
(0)
(0)
76
76
0
Maybe because I grew up with a Master Sergeant Father, but there is a time and place to make corrections and in front of a junior officers subordinates or peers is not one of them. I have taken my battalion commander aside and pointed this out to him, he had a bad habit of lighting up Junior leaders in front of the troops. That one turned out OK, he did recognize that it wasn't professional and tried to correct that behavior. I have a lot of respect for that action.
If I had seen the CSM do the same thing, I would have corrected him also. If he wanted to give me crap about it, I would have took it up with his Boss, the BNCO. There are idiots at every rank, correcting bad behavior is part of your job.
If I had seen the CSM do the same thing, I would have corrected him also. If he wanted to give me crap about it, I would have took it up with his Boss, the BNCO. There are idiots at every rank, correcting bad behavior is part of your job.
(76)
(0)
CPT Lawrence Cable
SFC Charles McVey Sr. - I thought you were one old Private there for a minute ;^).
It's hard to correct superiors and it doesn't always work out. Still, if you don't make the effort, you aren't doing your job and they will continue to make the same mistake.
My worst experience correcting a superior came about because of a qualification range. One of my LT's was the Ranger Officer, so I stopped in to check on him since it was his first experience in a Battalion position. As soon as I hit the range, I knew he was in trouble. The Battalion had scheduled a weapons qualification that was impossible to do one the range assigned. I walked up to the LT just as part of the S3 staff were telling him to just fill it the range cards and sign them. I did not correct them in private and I was loud, I was extremely pissed off. They were instructing my Lt to commit an illegal act and I had paper qualification drills. Shortly after, I was braced by the O-4 S3 himself, which also got loud, possibly profane and was in public. I dragged him before the BN Commander and stated my case. There was a lot of tap dancing around, claiming I had misunderstood, I frankly went in with my bars unpinned because I didn't think the BNCO was support me. He did finally support my position, maybe partly because if he tried a field grade article 15 I would have requested a court martial and to relieve me for cause it would have went to the Brigade Commander.
The stupid thing about it was the we were not required to meet the standard they had scheduled and the range assigned was more than adequate to fire our requirement. I did point that out also.
It's hard to correct superiors and it doesn't always work out. Still, if you don't make the effort, you aren't doing your job and they will continue to make the same mistake.
My worst experience correcting a superior came about because of a qualification range. One of my LT's was the Ranger Officer, so I stopped in to check on him since it was his first experience in a Battalion position. As soon as I hit the range, I knew he was in trouble. The Battalion had scheduled a weapons qualification that was impossible to do one the range assigned. I walked up to the LT just as part of the S3 staff were telling him to just fill it the range cards and sign them. I did not correct them in private and I was loud, I was extremely pissed off. They were instructing my Lt to commit an illegal act and I had paper qualification drills. Shortly after, I was braced by the O-4 S3 himself, which also got loud, possibly profane and was in public. I dragged him before the BN Commander and stated my case. There was a lot of tap dancing around, claiming I had misunderstood, I frankly went in with my bars unpinned because I didn't think the BNCO was support me. He did finally support my position, maybe partly because if he tried a field grade article 15 I would have requested a court martial and to relieve me for cause it would have went to the Brigade Commander.
The stupid thing about it was the we were not required to meet the standard they had scheduled and the range assigned was more than adequate to fire our requirement. I did point that out also.
(6)
(0)
SFC Charles McVey Sr.
CPT Lawrence Cable - Try being the Range Safety NCO for your MP Brigade and find out that the Range Officer pulled from all of the 2LT'S in the BDE had just finished MP Officer Basic Course and arrived in the BDE. He knw nothing about running a Range so I ended up Training him as well as Maintaining then the
Range Safety, and here comes the BDE CMDR and CSM, to observe this BDE Qualification, and the poor young 2LT is totally lost. By the I was able to get two more NCO's on the Range to Assist me, and I snagged the CSM to let him know what was going on, he managed to keep the BDE COMDR away from the poor LT until I could brief him and provide back up in case he got lost which he had twice. That was one of the worse two weeks I ever had on a Range.
Range Safety, and here comes the BDE CMDR and CSM, to observe this BDE Qualification, and the poor young 2LT is totally lost. By the I was able to get two more NCO's on the Range to Assist me, and I snagged the CSM to let him know what was going on, he managed to keep the BDE COMDR away from the poor LT until I could brief him and provide back up in case he got lost which he had twice. That was one of the worse two weeks I ever had on a Range.
(4)
(0)
1LT William Clardy
But the version depicting you as a centenarian private would sound so much better in the retelling, SFC Charles McVey Sr.! ;-)
(2)
(0)
67
67
0
In situations like this that I encountered the CSM ask the Lt to step into his office or a nearby vacant room and when the door reopened the Lt was a changed man in all but 1 instance, In that one instance they came out together and proceeded directly to the Commanders office and then the Lt came out a Changed man......
(67)
(0)
1LT William Clardy
Your role as commander does not preempt the general authority of officers and NCOs to make spot corrections, CPT Lawrence Cable.
If a CSM makes an on-the-spot correction of one of your soldiers, there are only two reasons he would even bring the matter to your attention: as a professional courtesy or out of concern that the correction may need command reinforcement to be effective. Most of the time, it's perfectly reasonable for the CSM to make a judgement call that the shenanigans involved don't merit any further attention. All that applies even when the correctee is one of your officers.
If a CSM makes an on-the-spot correction of one of your soldiers, there are only two reasons he would even bring the matter to your attention: as a professional courtesy or out of concern that the correction may need command reinforcement to be effective. Most of the time, it's perfectly reasonable for the CSM to make a judgement call that the shenanigans involved don't merit any further attention. All that applies even when the correctee is one of your officers.
(0)
(0)
CPT Lawrence Cable
1LT William Clardy - There is a distinct difference in a spot correct and locking someone heels up in front of that soldiers subordinates. I have no issue with a senior NCO or Officer correcting a young LT, but only in the proper context. That context means not screaming at some Butter Bar in front of troops. If it is something that serious, it absolutely need to be brought to the CO. If I saw Lt. "Smith" chewing out some PFC in front of his squad, I would have the same conversation with that LT. The exception I do make is for safety violations, which need to be handled immediately and everyone needs to know why.
(3)
(0)
1LT William Clardy
Apologies for my misunderstanding, CPT Lawrence Cable.
I had thought you were saying that a CSM should bring an errant LT to you for correction instead of correcting him on the spot and had assumed that publicly reaming said LT was still going to be wrong regardless of whether or not the CSM involved you in the discussion. Totally missed the intended nuance of it being an "either-or" comparison.
I had thought you were saying that a CSM should bring an errant LT to you for correction instead of correcting him on the spot and had assumed that publicly reaming said LT was still going to be wrong regardless of whether or not the CSM involved you in the discussion. Totally missed the intended nuance of it being an "either-or" comparison.
(2)
(0)
SSG Willis Baker
The impact of a CSM making a point at that precise moment is lost and therefore meaningless after the fact if he has to stop and take the LT to his office.
(0)
(0)
23
23
0
"Praise in public, criticize in private". The incident describes poor professionalism on both parts.
(23)
(0)
SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
Yes, that always worked well, don't embarrass Him in front of others, that doesn't work very well. Praise though, that always gets a positive result and people go the extra mile and do even more because they want to. One of the best Supervisors I ever had I learned that from and if You messed up and corrected a problem He would never even remind You of it again ever and move on. We all went above and beyond to do anything We even thought He wanted because We wanted to and were motivated. What I learned from Him i applied for the rest of My life and learned more about how to handle people from Him than any human being I'd ever worked for. He retired as a MSgt from the Air Force to Denver, CO and We stayed in touch.
(1)
(0)
21
21
0
I see both parties as being in the wrong. And senior leadership fails if they don't make them understand that like parents, all disagreements should be behind closed doors.
(21)
(0)
SFC Casey O'Mally
I strongly concur. This caused me no end of grief as a PSG with an incompetent Platoon Leader (because no one outside of me and the PL knew how many times and how strongly I told her she was being an idiot). But yes, arguments behind closed doors, and when you leave the office, all smiles and a united front.
(5)
(0)
CPT Lawrence Cable
SFC Casey O'Mally - I always did my major ass chewing in private. If I was being loud and direct in front of the troops, it was usually because someone was going something stupidly dangerous, like wiring the primers on a charge while it's hooked up to the firing device.
(2)
(0)
SFC Casey O'Mally
CPT Lawrence Cable I agree sir. If it comes to safety, especially immediate and catastrophic risk, you do what it takes to get the point across, and NOW. Otherwise, take it in private.
(2)
(0)
16
16
0
The only time I saw anything even remotely like this was when I saw a brand new 2LT try to brace a CSM for not saluting. The were both in class A's and the CSM had this really pretty light blue ribbon with stars on it. The CSM looked down at this ribbon and pointed at it. Then he said something like, "Sonny, when you see one of these, you do the saluting."
The LT looked at it blankly and the CSM told him what it was, whereupon the LT snapped a crisp salute and the CSM returned it.
This is the real version of events but, if I've had a couple of beers, I usually finish by saying the CSM gave him a dime and told him to call his mother. "Tell her you're in the real army now."
But in truth the CSM was much more gracious than that.
The LT looked at it blankly and the CSM told him what it was, whereupon the LT snapped a crisp salute and the CSM returned it.
This is the real version of events but, if I've had a couple of beers, I usually finish by saying the CSM gave him a dime and told him to call his mother. "Tell her you're in the real army now."
But in truth the CSM was much more gracious than that.
(16)
(0)
1LT William Clardy
I can't recall ever hearing a tale of someone wearing one of those "pretty blue ribbons" who wasn't exceptionally humble about wearing it.
(5)
(0)
SFC Charles McVey Sr.
I have known two, the first one was in West Germany and a Reserve MAJ who had been rifted at the end of Korea because he did not have any College, he was allowed to stay on active duty as an SSG E5, and yes we had them in the early 60's. He fell out for an IG with such a chest full of ribbons even the IG had to do a double take. He had served in WW2 and received a Battle field Commission in North Africa by the time the war was over he was a Major Commanding a Battalion of MP's Korea came and he was shipped out there. Oh and the CMH was from the Italian Campaign I think. In 1964 he was recalled to activity duty and Promoted to LTC and in 66 he was in Nam. I lost track of him after that.
The other one was INF CSM you never knew it but he was one of the most humble CSM's I ever ran across, he did his best not to have to wear his dress uniform even on duty. I only found out at a Senior NCO Lunch (E7, E8 and E9) with a directive that all NCO's would wear their Dress Blue's This was in 1983. He made an appearance and as Stuck our and I knew instantly just how could of a soldier he was.
The other one was INF CSM you never knew it but he was one of the most humble CSM's I ever ran across, he did his best not to have to wear his dress uniform even on duty. I only found out at a Senior NCO Lunch (E7, E8 and E9) with a directive that all NCO's would wear their Dress Blue's This was in 1983. He made an appearance and as Stuck our and I knew instantly just how could of a soldier he was.
(2)
(0)
13
13
0
Its not the place of a CSM to chew out, publicly or not, an LT. That's the LT's commander's job.
The CSM can make respectful suggestions to the LT which the LT should take under serious consideration.
Please note that the CSM does not have authority over the LT but he does, ultimately, have more power. As an NCO I feel its important for NCOs to know their limits in dealing with officers. (Bear in mind that a NCO who has a issue with an an officer can always take it up the NCO chain and then have the appropriate CSM bring the issue to the appropriate commander.
The best way to deal with an LT who has deficiencies and won't listen to advice, is to step back and let him plant the seeds of his own destruction.
The CSM can make respectful suggestions to the LT which the LT should take under serious consideration.
Please note that the CSM does not have authority over the LT but he does, ultimately, have more power. As an NCO I feel its important for NCOs to know their limits in dealing with officers. (Bear in mind that a NCO who has a issue with an an officer can always take it up the NCO chain and then have the appropriate CSM bring the issue to the appropriate commander.
The best way to deal with an LT who has deficiencies and won't listen to advice, is to step back and let him plant the seeds of his own destruction.
(13)
(0)
SGM William Everroad
MSG John Duchesneau I can think of few instances that would require me to "chew out" an LT. In all my interaction I try to provide advice and recommendations that helps develop officers and NCO and improve readiness for the BNCDR. That said, I have never had a negative encounter using that approach.
However, I have had to have a "talking to" with LTs who conduct themselves in a nonprofessional manner. (one instance was where two LTs were fighting on range over who was in charge, in front of troops. It didn't feel right to walk away from that situation and let it go, but I did pull them aside for privacy and had a conversation).
However, I have had to have a "talking to" with LTs who conduct themselves in a nonprofessional manner. (one instance was where two LTs were fighting on range over who was in charge, in front of troops. It didn't feel right to walk away from that situation and let it go, but I did pull them aside for privacy and had a conversation).
(0)
(0)
LTC Christopher Hills
Other than an extremely rare instance where safety was concerned, you are correct… it is NOT the CSM’s job to chew out a LT it is the job of his company commander and battalion commander. But I’m not sure it is in the best interest of the army to “let him plant the seeds…”. I’d certainly swing by for a chat with a LT’s commander so someone appropriate could make a correction. Most young officers are smart enough to learn from NCO’s, but if an NCO starts the whole conversation inappropriately, ultimately the LT never learns a thing. Then, it was all wasted time.
(0)
(0)
12
12
0
YES. THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU
A CSM could drill a new 2LT a new one. Badly. In front of troops.
The 2LT could certainly be in the wrong. However the CSM, in this specific instance, would be in the wrong...err...wronger.
If this happens to you (and you are the 2LT) I recommend the following:
1. Give the CSM your full and complete attention and call his/her attention to it
2. Listen to the CSM; note the useful information, particularly what was specifically wrong
3. Acknowledge the points made by the CSM; make sure he/she understands that you understand
4. If the CSM acknowledges your rank, or addresses you as "sir", you acknowledge the CSM's rank*
5. Make a commitment to corrective action; make a plan and put it into action ASAP
6. Speak to the CSM's CO; relate the facts of the matter without recrimination or finger-pointing
7. Ask the CO if the CSM's actions were consistent with the CO's standards of conduct
8. Give the CO your full and undivided attention, and fully receive any comments the CO might have
9. If the CSM has a change of attitude, be prepared to forgive; a handshake would be appropriate.
* The CSM might say something like "'Yes'...aaaand..." in a way to make you acknowledge his rank, or something like that. You can do something like "Yes, and [acknowledgement of the point that the CSM just made]" If the CSM pushes the matter of acknowledging his rank, you can ask (politely) if he/she would like to do the same. In any case, remain calm and never, never respond to anger with anger.
A CSM could drill a new 2LT a new one. Badly. In front of troops.
The 2LT could certainly be in the wrong. However the CSM, in this specific instance, would be in the wrong...err...wronger.
If this happens to you (and you are the 2LT) I recommend the following:
1. Give the CSM your full and complete attention and call his/her attention to it
2. Listen to the CSM; note the useful information, particularly what was specifically wrong
3. Acknowledge the points made by the CSM; make sure he/she understands that you understand
4. If the CSM acknowledges your rank, or addresses you as "sir", you acknowledge the CSM's rank*
5. Make a commitment to corrective action; make a plan and put it into action ASAP
6. Speak to the CSM's CO; relate the facts of the matter without recrimination or finger-pointing
7. Ask the CO if the CSM's actions were consistent with the CO's standards of conduct
8. Give the CO your full and undivided attention, and fully receive any comments the CO might have
9. If the CSM has a change of attitude, be prepared to forgive; a handshake would be appropriate.
* The CSM might say something like "'Yes'...aaaand..." in a way to make you acknowledge his rank, or something like that. You can do something like "Yes, and [acknowledgement of the point that the CSM just made]" If the CSM pushes the matter of acknowledging his rank, you can ask (politely) if he/she would like to do the same. In any case, remain calm and never, never respond to anger with anger.
(12)
(0)
1LT William Clardy
"[R]emain calm and never, never respond to anger with anger."
That right there is the secret ingredient for a junior officer surviving any encounter with a senior non-com with no significant damage to his gluteul tissue.
That right there is the secret ingredient for a junior officer surviving any encounter with a senior non-com with no significant damage to his gluteul tissue.
(2)
(0)
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
One minor detail: When the CSM is addressing the LT, the LT can remain in a position of "At Ease" while listening to what the CSM is saying. If anything, the CSM may (and is highly encouraged to) assume a posture of "Attention." While "At Ease" make sure you (as the LT) focus your attention on the CSM, and what the CSM is saying. If there is any question of that, make a point of it: "I am listening, CSM. Please continue." (Or to that effect.)
(0)
(0)
12
12
0
I learned a lot from Senior NCOs during my career. My early career was as an aircrew member where things are a bit more informal in terms of customs and courtesy. Flight engineers and loadmasters taught me a lot about the C130. Their understanding of how the aircraft really worked made me a better pilot and officer.
A couple of early lessons: show respect for enlisted people by using proper forms of address. They worked hard to earn those stripes. Support your crew members when they say the aircraft is “broke” and maintenance needs to fix it. Don’t override them unless the mission absolutely requires it.
A couple of early lessons: show respect for enlisted people by using proper forms of address. They worked hard to earn those stripes. Support your crew members when they say the aircraft is “broke” and maintenance needs to fix it. Don’t override them unless the mission absolutely requires it.
(12)
(0)
SFC Casey O'Mally
All of the best leaders I had, Officer and NCO alike, understood that respect went both ways. As a SFC, I almost always got even more respect from my CPTs - LTCs than I did from my SGTs and SSGs. (And that is not at all to say that these NCOs were disrespecting me.)
(3)
(0)
1stSgt Dennis Berger
I am a retired first sergeant. My son, now a captain, learned from me how to deal with enlisted. Especially senior NCOs. He has slapped a few of his peers down who didn’t know how to work with them.
(2)
(0)
8
8
0
That situation if true it is very out of line on both parties unless an immediate safety risk is involved.
In my first job as 2LT, in the spring of 1967, I was made a Division Signal Battalion Adjutant/S-1 and HHD Commander. My boss the BN CO was to busy to give me a lot of guidance and the XO's position was vacant so by default the CSM was my boss/mentor. He was extremely helpful and willing to provide guidance and candid criticism on many occasions which made me better in that job. I was then placed in command of one of the companies that had the weakest 1SG and again the CSM assisted greatly in helping me manage and quietly teach the 1SG his job. CSM was also firmly and quick to point out if my approach was wrong and how it could be improved.
CSM Doucette made me a much better officer and his lessons led me well in my former civilian management career. At 81 54 years later I still think of him in the most positive terms.
In my first job as 2LT, in the spring of 1967, I was made a Division Signal Battalion Adjutant/S-1 and HHD Commander. My boss the BN CO was to busy to give me a lot of guidance and the XO's position was vacant so by default the CSM was my boss/mentor. He was extremely helpful and willing to provide guidance and candid criticism on many occasions which made me better in that job. I was then placed in command of one of the companies that had the weakest 1SG and again the CSM assisted greatly in helping me manage and quietly teach the 1SG his job. CSM was also firmly and quick to point out if my approach was wrong and how it could be improved.
CSM Doucette made me a much better officer and his lessons led me well in my former civilian management career. At 81 54 years later I still think of him in the most positive terms.
(8)
(0)
8
8
0
I never considered these to be anything more than "stories" or as we in the Navy call them, "Sea Stories", Most E-8' & E-9's display much better discretion than than the "stories" relate.
(8)
(0)
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
I would opine that more than 99% of SNCO's in the Navy are professionals. (Maybe more; like 99.9%). What we're talking about, here, are aberrations. I would suspect that if any SNCO did anything like that, there would be many other SNCO's who would cringe, and maybe more than a few who would act.
(1)
(0)
One, yes I've heard the stories, but never about a CSM I know or spoke to.
Two, I've never seen a CSM chew out an LT in public, closed doors with a select few in the room, yes but even that is a rare thing.
So has it happened? I'm sure, and it would have been wrong.
Did some LT order the CSM to the position of attention? I'm sure it happened ....Id guess either the CSM laughed and walked away (not what I would do) or went to POA and took the response from the LT,,,, realizing they were in the wrong to have created the situation to start with and salvaging that with doing the "right" thing in front of others was a best of a shitty situation. Once the LT had his say, Id quietly provide that I was going to go see the BN CDR, and he might want to come along
Two, I've never seen a CSM chew out an LT in public, closed doors with a select few in the room, yes but even that is a rare thing.
So has it happened? I'm sure, and it would have been wrong.
Did some LT order the CSM to the position of attention? I'm sure it happened ....Id guess either the CSM laughed and walked away (not what I would do) or went to POA and took the response from the LT,,,, realizing they were in the wrong to have created the situation to start with and salvaging that with doing the "right" thing in front of others was a best of a shitty situation. Once the LT had his say, Id quietly provide that I was going to go see the BN CDR, and he might want to come along
(8)
(0)
SFC Casey O'Mally
I agree. I think you have detailed pretty much the perfect response if it does escalate to that point.
(1)
(0)
7
7
0
I spent my career living out three general principles, well at least I tried my best to uphold them -
1. Praise in public, correct in private
2. You can delegate some of your authority to carry out the mission, you cannot share your responsibility for the mission.
3. A good leader removes a stone from their soldiers rucksack, doesn't add one.
One final thought is that all folks in senior leadership, regardless of branch, civilian or military, RLO, WO or NCO, need to keep egos in check.
1. Praise in public, correct in private
2. You can delegate some of your authority to carry out the mission, you cannot share your responsibility for the mission.
3. A good leader removes a stone from their soldiers rucksack, doesn't add one.
One final thought is that all folks in senior leadership, regardless of branch, civilian or military, RLO, WO or NCO, need to keep egos in check.
(7)
(0)
7
7
0
As a senior NCO (who also worked in a training environment) I had the occasion to call many a junior officer "aside" to discuss what I felt was a bad call. I made every attempt to keep such occasions as private as possible for a couple of reasons. 1) Out of courtesy and respect for the individual's rank. 2) I believed that criticism of someone's behavior/comments should be done in privacy (unless it is a training situation such as being an instructor when all will benefit from the remedial actions). I don't care the rank of the individual, if you feel they need a "word" respect the person and you won't go too far astray.
(7)
(0)
I think this something that happens in theory. When I was an LT I have been corrected by my CSM but it was very respectful. I couldn't imagine a LT trying to lock up a NCO.
(6)
(0)
SFC Casey O'Mally
Sir,
Thankfully, this is something that happens rarely. But it does happen, and it is almost never pretty. In my opinion, when it does happen, both that LT and CSM are wrong for allowing it to get to that point. And if it happens in public, both are dead wrong.
Thankfully, this is something that happens rarely. But it does happen, and it is almost never pretty. In my opinion, when it does happen, both that LT and CSM are wrong for allowing it to get to that point. And if it happens in public, both are dead wrong.
(1)
(0)
1LT William Clardy
I can do more than imagine a lieutenant locking up a senior NCO, CPT (Join to see).
But the only witnesses were the LT and the NCO, and the LT did not raise his voice any more than necessary to remind the NCO of proper military courtesy when addressing an officer (even a junior-ish one).
I won't claim that the NCO was exactly happy about the encounter, but there was no evidence of him holding a grudge either.
But the only witnesses were the LT and the NCO, and the LT did not raise his voice any more than necessary to remind the NCO of proper military courtesy when addressing an officer (even a junior-ish one).
I won't claim that the NCO was exactly happy about the encounter, but there was no evidence of him holding a grudge either.
(2)
(0)
5
5
0
I think it's a scenario all young LT's would like to happen, but really doesn't happen in the wild.
I have pushed back on a CSM when I was an LT, but that was over the phone between us, but I was 46 at the time so it was one old man to another.
*****
IG complaint came his way regarding someone in my company. Turns out the source of the complaint was a result of the Battalion staff not acting on my action I sent up to them twice, under two different BC's and staff of the CSM. So any IG complaint coming my way was only going to land right back in his lap after I forwarded IG the e-mails and date signed CAC forms.
So I had to stop his rant before he got too far along.
*****
I think generally, CSM's are well versed in the ways to pounce on a Jr officer. Usually their LTC/COL is in in ear shot.
I remember a CSM holding a brief and a few LTC's were sitting WAY in the back. CSM asked them professionally to come forward, and they balked and gave him lip. The CSM's COL stepped on stage and they complied.
I have pushed back on a CSM when I was an LT, but that was over the phone between us, but I was 46 at the time so it was one old man to another.
*****
IG complaint came his way regarding someone in my company. Turns out the source of the complaint was a result of the Battalion staff not acting on my action I sent up to them twice, under two different BC's and staff of the CSM. So any IG complaint coming my way was only going to land right back in his lap after I forwarded IG the e-mails and date signed CAC forms.
So I had to stop his rant before he got too far along.
*****
I think generally, CSM's are well versed in the ways to pounce on a Jr officer. Usually their LTC/COL is in in ear shot.
I remember a CSM holding a brief and a few LTC's were sitting WAY in the back. CSM asked them professionally to come forward, and they balked and gave him lip. The CSM's COL stepped on stage and they complied.
(5)
(0)
4
4
0
Not as a LT, but I had an issue with a SGM who was acting as our CSM when we were deployed. In fact I had 2 separate run-in's with him. He felt that his position gave him the authority to treat anyone however he wanted, wherever he wanted. I came into my office as the S4 and found him tearing apart my NCOIC in front of my soldiers and the entire S1 shop that I shared an office with. I stopped it and asked what was going on at which point he laid in to me. I stopped him again and we went outside and we had a "discussion" where I informed him that he was not to talk to anyone like that, especially in front of soldiers, and then invited him to accompany me to the BN CDR's office. We eventually PCS'd him out of theater he was so bad.
(4)
(0)
LTC Christopher Hills
Unfortunately, achieving rank doesn’t always come with the good leadership skills necessary for that rank. I have seen that among both officers and NCO’s… and sometimes, you just need to boot them out the door. I have as well.
(0)
(0)
4
4
0
One of my troops and I walked by a 2LT from another Battery, as we passed him, we saluted and gave the greeting, the unit motto. The LT just kept walking by with out the return. My 1SG, saw this and ran down to the LT and gave him a salute with the greeting, then said "excuse me sir". And he discussed passing by 2 of his soldiers who showed respect and saluted him but he did not show the courtesy back by returning the salute. He maintained his military bearing as he explained why it was wrong and informed him he owed us a salute. May I say, we could barely hear him. The LT quickly turned around and provided us a salute and apologized. Would the LT be left "feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated," probably, but he learned a lesson of how he did not return respect.
(4)
(0)
LTC Christopher Hills
I see that as an NCO doing the right thing (as opposed to the original post where the CSM was doing the wrong thing). One also would hope that any company grade officer would be attentive if a senior NCO stopped to talk with them… out of sheer respect for the position if nothing else. And it sounds like that is how it played out with the 2LT in your battery.
(0)
(0)
4
4
0
It all depends on the context of the specific situation. Sometimes it is the Lt who oversteps and overreaches. Sometimes its the Sgt Maj who goes too far and refuses to backdown. I was in for 11 1/2 years and saw variations where either party or both were at fault. It's a delicate dance to make that relationship function correctly.
(4)
(0)
SFC Casey O'Mally
I understand what you are saying. In my opinion, if it gets to the point where the LT feels the need to lock up the CSM, it is almost always a case of BOTH being in the wrong.
(0)
(0)
SSgt Christophe Murphy
SFC Casey O'Mally - I've seen a Lt or Boot Capt lead with that before. Or say "I'm an O and you have to do what I say". In those cases I would fault the officer. But like I said, it depends on the context. It's not something you can use a blanket assumption on. Sometimes it could be either or both.
(0)
(0)
3
3
0
first of all, it needs to be done in private. second of all, nobody needs to get "locked up" so to speak. they need to talk about it and if that doesn't work, go to the BC.
(3)
(0)
Read This Next
-
Ask questionGet expert advice and
tips for your questions. -
Post updatePost pictures, personal updates, plans, or anything you like!
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google 
