Posted on Jan 14, 2015
SSG Combat Medic
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This weekend me and my GF decided to get out and go to the movies not near any military base once so ever (maybe a Reserve or NG training facility could be near by). So I'm glancing around notice a uniform on a young lady and her hair down with a PT cap on inside of the mall. I didn't loose my mind at first because it could be anyone just wearing the uniform these days. As I get closer to her I notice she has on SPC rank. I told my GF that I have to say something to her and of course she didn't understand. When I approached the SPC and her civilian male acquaintance, I asked her was she in the Army and she quickly replied "yes". So I asked her did she know she was in complete violation of Army Regs she says "yes". The female rolled her eyes at me and I could tell she was going to have
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
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LTC Daniel Rogne
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Need to revisit the days before 2005 where the BDU was ruled with an iron fist. No shopping allowed back then. Only convenience stops like gas and milk runs and then go home/ work.
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PO1 Information Systems Technician
PO1 (Join to see)
>1 y
i thought that was how it still was...up to a point. we could be in the working uniform and stop at McDs, etc, for a quick meal but the mall, movies and "fancy restaurants" were a no-no unless in NSU or equivalent (service or dress uniform for the fancy restaurants).
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LTC Daniel Rogne
LTC Daniel Rogne
8 y
Not necessarily true. ACU worn out in public is viewed as a reminder there still is a war going on.
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LTC Daniel Rogne
LTC Daniel Rogne
8 y
Soldiers can fly stateside with ACUs on. I choose to limit exposure in public and go dressy on flights like it's the 1950s again.
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Capt Andrew Cosgrove
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Many years ago, I was visiting my Brother in CT. There is no Marine Corps facility other than recruiters within several hundred miles. We were at a local mall, and my brother pointed out a LCpl walking into a store that had his service alphas on. Well that would be generous.

He had taken his Alpha Coat off, unbuttoned the collar of the shirt, loosened the tie, and rolled up the sleeves. It was obvious that he was home on leave after just finishing recruit training. I walked up to him in my civvies, and said: "Hey there Marine! How long you been home?" He was with a girl so I figured it was a girlfriend and I didn't want to embarass him.

He responded with some pride in his voice "Hello sir, I've been home for a few days now." I gave him my ID which showed my rank and that I was on active duty. His face kind of blanched at this point. His only experience with Captains thus far I am sure, was not of the positive kind.

I said to him very jovially and kindly "Marine, if you are proud of that uniform, please go into the men's room and correct yourself. I don't want sloppy Marines representing our corps."

He looked at me, blinked once, said "Aye, aye sir!" and told his girlfriend "Honey I need to go to the bathroom."

There was another time that I was brand new 2ndLt and I was part of the Air Group Staff. I had to attend these meetings every morning with the Colonel and the other members of his staff. I happened to be the Fiscal Officer (which is a Capt Billet but I was what was available). Anyway, the Colonel was in the outer office getting himself a cup of coffee when I noticed that the one of sizing tabs on the back of his utility blouse was unbuttoned.

I walked up to him and said quietly: "Excuse me sir. Your blouse tab is unbuttoned."

He looked at me with this very calm look like what I had done was create balance in the world. "Thank you Lieutenant." He quickly buttoned it.

That Friday we had an Officer's call at the Club for some Military PME presentation. Afterwards the Colonel made a beeline to me at the bar. I was with several other Lt's and Capt's. The Colonel shoved a mug of beer in my hand and said loudly enough for every other officer in the room to hear:

"A toast! To 2ndLT Cosgrove who had enough balls to correct a Colonel, enough intelligence to do it tactfully, and an Esprit De Corps that will serve him well. Thank you Lt for correcting my uniform the other day. Gentlemen may you all have enough pride in your corps to be willing to correct a senior officer tactfully when needed."

That one incident taught me that when you are right, you should never fear what needs to be done, so long as you do it tactfully. That Colonel was a leader of Marines who I will always remember.
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Capt Michael Brown
Capt Michael Brown
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Outstanding!
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
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Here are my thoughts about on-the spot corrections.

1: Corrections have to be made. As a leader, it's my responsibility to lead. Sometimes that means pulling SPC Longhair there off to the side and pointing out the applicable paragraphs in 670-1.
2: If I don't make them, who will? If I am not going to make the corrections, who am I expecting to do it? Perhaps the guy serving concessions should?
3: When I let a standard slip, I "create a new standard." Since neither you nor I have the authority to rewrite policy, I don't want my inaction to give someone else the false idea that they have permission to be jacked up too.
4: Junior leaders need to see other leaders making corrections. If one of my squad or team leaders watches me "turn a blind eye" to this kind of situation, what should I expect them to do in the same situation?
5: Doing the right thing isn't always comfortable...but who guaranteed me comfort? Since when do leaders have the luxury of only doing the right thing when it's comfortable?

If you put those things together, the question isn't whether or not I should say something but whether or not I should use the knife hand while saying it.
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SGT Headquarters Staff
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knife hand is mandatory in this situation
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Sgt James Morse
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The responses in this thread surprise me...

I was in the USMC in the 90's, and an NCO for the majority of that time. I ran into this, and similar situations, on a regular basis. There is-- and should be-- only one response to this kind of thing.

- Avoid a public display of chastising the junior Marine, but pul that person aside and establish who you are.
- Get the person's full name, rank, and unit.
- Instruct them to get themselves unf--ked on the spot (many times, the infraction was a violation of the civilian clothing regs)
- If it's a violation that cannot be fixed on the spot, tell that person to return home, or to their unit, and change into appropriate clothing. Tell the junior person that you will be calling the Duty NCO to ensure that the problems have been corrected, which means that they will have to check in with the Duty NCO; give them a reasonable time frame to get it done.
- Follow through.

The first couple of times that this happened, it irritated my wife-- it took time away from our leisure time together. I explained to her that if she liked being the bride to a man in Dress Blues, she had better learn to like everything that came with.

I also had more than one NCO and Platoon Sergeant tell me that I was overstepping my authority by correcting "THEIR' Marines. I would very tactfully remind them that a) they were the CORPS's Marines, and b) if they had been doing their job in the first place, there would have been no need to correct anyone.

No matter what branch you serve in, you represent your unit, your organization, and your Country. That responsibility does not end at the gate. Junior enlistees need to see their NCO's doing the right thing ALL the time. NCO's are the backbone of every service, and the necessity of setting the right example all the time falls especially hard on sergeants, corporals, petty officers, and specialists, but that's part of the job.
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Sgt Donald Stone
Sgt Donald Stone
>1 y
OOH RAAA Sarg !!! I realize that this young "lady" is a soldier, and the vast majority of responders to this issue are soldiers, but I have to wonder why so few Marines haven't chimed in. Semper Fi
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Sgt James Morse
Sgt James Morse
>1 y
I can venture a guess. My son recently enlisted in the Army (not his first choice, but the USMC recruiter dropped the ball) and when he and I talk about his job, it's almost like two people conversing in different languages. The Army just lacks the bearing and professionalism that is the bedrock of a Marine's early training. It's a cultural difference that doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on the Army, but it is still there. My son is an Airborne scout--not the most elite guys on the planet, but they are a little bit more professional than your average 11B's and their esprit de corps and professionalism-- not to mention morale-- is considerably lower than what I experienced in most Marine Corps rifle battalions. Compared to a MEU-SOC, there is no contest.

So, in all likelihood, my guess is that the Marines are writing the army off as nasty when in fact they just can't get a clear view of where the Army's standards end. There is a reason that the Marine Corps is much harder to get into, and the difference in the cultures of the various services makes US out to be the knuckle-dragging apes that are trained to attack tanks with our entrenching tools!
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SSgt Maintenance Controller
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I see Soldiers out in public all the time in uniform (cammies) so what exactly is the Army policy on wearing uniforms in public?

As a Marine we are not allowed to wear them off base and if I see a Marine wearing them I WILL correct that individual. If they are with family or friends I will pull them to the side, introduce myself and I ask to see their ID, that way I get their full name so I can look them up and contact their Chain of Command if needed.
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CPT Operations Officer (S3)
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SSgt John Lavender,
I will attempt to find the regs to clear the confusion. But, I believe the fundamental difference could be the name adapted by the two different services: US Army calls it Army Combat Uniform (ACU); I believe the US Marines call it Utilities.
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PO1 Michael G.
PO1 Michael G.
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SSgt (Join to see) Well said.

Technically speaking, the Navy regulation says the same thing about being en route to and from work/duty, Sailors are authorized to wear NWUs to make "regular" stops and gives the example of grocery shopping, picking up kids from childcare/school, and even going out to eat. However, the regulation is also clear to spell out that drinking alcohol in NWU during those stops is verboten, despite being perfectly within regulations to drink while wearing NWUs in an on base club.

Quick non-sequitur: my brother is a Marine stationed in Beaufort, too.
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PV2 Food Service Specialist
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1SG, dang, that was very in depth like a history book or something. Impressive.
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MAJ Concept Writer
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It's a matter of interpretation, but going to the movies (or the soldiers mentioned in other responses wandering the mall) aren't making "regular" stops - usually interpreted as in SN Geilczyk's examples above.

That doesn't count at least two (hair down in a pony tail while in any uniform other than PTs, wearing a cover indoors when not under arms), and probably three (wearing the watch cap vice the patrol cap, unless the watch cap was part of her unit's duty uniform) violations of AR 670-1.
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CW5 Sam R. Baker
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I have had similar issues and when I made the correction, my wife was astounded, almost embarrassed, but I told her that I had to make the OTSC. I would have pulled her to the side and the eye rolling and size of her friend tells me this might not have been a good event in public. Having her name and rank, this would probably be a research situation and direct intervention with her command.

The OTSC I had was in a international airport with about 3 Soldiers running around in the ASU with no jacket and no tie in a LS shirt and others with open jackets walking around the airport. I just could not allow this to continue in public. I stopped them each individually and pulled them to the side, identified myself and had them fix themselves immediately (a couple had to go retrieve parts of their uniform).

Another incident was a motorcycle with a bald rear tire showing threads. I saw the only Solder with a helmet and asked him if it was his bike, he said yes and I pulled his ID and drivers license, got the commanders name and phone and took a photo of his license plate. I gave him basically an order to replace the tire or I would contact his command, gave him my number and told him to send me a photo of the new tire on the bike, he did.

The only thing that I have not experienced to date in public is a attitude of the OTSC. Not sure how to deal with it other than snap a photo and try to find the command group and address the issue.
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SFC Boots Attaway
SFC Boots Attaway
>1 y
Well done CW5 Sam R. Baker , I don't think I could have been so diplomatic. LOL
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PV2 Senior Web Designer, Web Team Lead
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Good for you Chief! Well done!
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CW5 Sam R. Baker
CW5 Sam R. Baker
>1 y
No need to kill the messenger and find yourself in the UCMJ process. I have had many complaints against me over the years, all unfounded and eventually the perpetrator usually is exposed for the problem.
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PO3 Machinist's Mate
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Damn, I'm afraid I might've lost my shit, lol... I'm no longer Active, but for some CRAZY reason, I try to keep up with current regs from all of the branches (I like to be able to offer advice when SM's find themselves in trouble or something). I've given on the spot corrections as a Veteran and they were usually well-received. If I had gotten the eye-roll or something... Jesus. Most SM's I've been in contact with like this were respectful about it. You never know who is approaching you when they're in civilian clothes... Whoa be the Private who pops off to a Colonel...
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SSG Combat Medic
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>1 y
This new generation is something else. She new she was incorrect to begin with.
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PO3 Machinist's Mate
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THIS is the sort of thing that worries me. I'm looking to get back in the Army (Reserves) by the end of the year, after a 13 year break in service. God help the ate up Private who doesn't care that they look like a soup sandwich (especially when I have to go back to AIT)... I will lose my mind, lol...
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SPC Christopher Vaughn
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I had a guy pull me to the side inside a Publix due to wearing my Field Jacket, now I was not in uniform, and I'm a vet. He wanted to really make a big deal out of my combat patch (3rd Id) and the proceeded to give me the 21 questions about my service and when did i serve and what bases and Fobs.

First thing i asked him "Have you ever been deployed?" He said no, I turned and walked away.

There's a time and place to correct, but make sure your right first.

Thats just the way I see it.
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SSG Mike Angelo
SSG Mike Angelo
>1 y
When making on the spot corrections the "be right first" attitude is the way. Its time tested and a proven model of excellence; professional behavior. I learned that as a young NCO going thru 7th Army NCO Academy in Bad Tolz, FRG. (Germany 1982).
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SSG Paul Lanciault
SSG Paul Lanciault
>1 y
7th Army NCO Academy was an outstanding school.
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Cpl Zack Hardin
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U have to grow a pair. Iam sorry not saying marine's Are god's gift to the world. But at the same note if that were a marine female or male another marine would have not cared or waited to say anything. If she or he got a attitude well that just makes a marine want to correct u more. My answer to your question is if u care for what u wear and the sight of some one wearing that uniform in such a manner that u have to come up and say something, don't stop keep on them. Junior enlisted or not they know how to wear it and know what happens if they get caught not doing it right. Cpl Hardin united states marine corps. Have a good day.
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1SG Theater Operations Division Ncoic | Us Army Regional Cyber Center   Conus
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Well said young man!!!
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Cpl Zack Hardin
Cpl Zack Hardin
>1 y
Thank you very much.
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SFC Drill Sergeant
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The standards are the standards for that very reason, to be enforced by leadership...without fail!
You made your move to correct the specialist & was instantly disreguarded as a NCO.
Now, It's at that point you explain to the Soldier that she don't want to make this a bigger deal that it has to be & also suggest she think about what her Command would think of this violation of AR670-1 esp. her First Sergeant because you will take this up higher, if need be!
Close with "Square Yourself Away, Soldier" & stand there with your game face on! She would've fix herself at that point, SSG Robinson...
Being a NCO means doing the dirty work, outside the wire & at home, so always remember when you see Soldiers not doing the right thing, in violation of the standards or when you spy a fake in the crowd...
Remember "No one is more professional than I".
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