Should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9? With the military moving to a leaner, agile and more educated force, should it's top leaders be required to have a baccalaureate degree prior to selection or prior to promotion?

Should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9?

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Posted >1 y ago

A colleague and I were discussing the "younger generation," or, the one's who will replace us. These kids are growing up in a smarter and more technologically-centered world than any of us senior NCO's. To not realize that is to not tap into what will be known as the start of a "tehnological shift" of the way we do things. Granted, not all of this will take a degree and I would never want to take the personal touch and what you go through to get "there" away from leadership. A degree, whether two, four, master's or doctorate, is more of an indication of time management, perserverance and a seeking of higher knowledge. I work in the corporate environment and have twice as much "experience" in leadership than any of the senior officers of this company. Does that get me an immediate promotion? No. Wish it did but it doesn't. Add to that fact that recent grads are coming into a work force with MBA's and you see where your post-military future is pointing towards. Now, when we are in the military the younger kids are getting in for various reasons. Many are taking advantage of the bonuses and money for college. Some stay in after college, but most get out. It's a revolving door. Is is a necessity? No. I like the fact that it ought to be taken as "part" of a comprehensive package. The attainment of a degree doesn't mean you have arrived. It means you have taken another, harder-to-travel, road along the way.

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SFC (Join to see)

Posted >1 y ago

As we move into a more integrated and electronic army, it is important for all senior NCOs to be able to navigate and effectively communicate with all echelons necessary for mission completion. I feel a four year degree should be mandatory for NCOs beginning at SFC. While this may seem somewhat dramatic, a senior NCOs responsibilities is greatly changed from that of NCOs. For example, staff positions, NCOICs, platoon sergeant positions, and above require a more broad approach to leadership than simply training and pushing your troops. You wont learn leadership, or practical knowledge in school; you should have gotten that before you became a senior NCO. What a college degree offers is the ability to take your managerial approach to higher levels; while it is hard to specifically define, I find that my education (not my degree) helps me to perform my job many levels above my peers, no matter their level of Army experience.

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SSG (Join to see)

>1 y

SFC,

Question for you. How does a college teach you a managerial approach to higher levels or to be able to perform above your peers? You can teach someone to become a leader but it’s up to them to grab the reins to be able to learn the positions above theirs, techniques, tactics and the needed knowledge. Weather it’s getting back into the books, getting with a mentor or just learning new positions, techniques and tactics from others. This is how you get ahead of your peers as well. The education will help to, both Military and Civilian Education. And this might, I said might open a can of worms here, but the level Army experience can and has won over education (the book worm) time and time again. But I’m not here start any type of arguments, IF a degree is needed, then it should start before that of SFC; SGT should be the first step. The bottom line SFC, Soldiers should have some college education when time permits. Being a Soldier comes first. Last, Both the CSM G. and CW2 M. both said it best, "It would be highly advisable to have a drgee".

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SFC (Join to see)

>1 y

No can of worms, you hold a very common point. Grabbing the reins and taking charge is not something that college is going to teach you. It is probably difficult to quantify what college is going to help you do to someone that doesn't already have one. This is because you don't know how many levels above your game you can perform until you get there. I don't think I have ever met another educated NCO, senior NCO or officer that said that it wasn't worth it, or even necessary. You do have a valid point that experience trumps over education, however having been in the Army for a long time, even before the wars. I have met these experienced NCOs with no education that you are speaking of, and they are lacking time and again. I am not sure how to respond to your military education comment because I have no idea what it is that you wrote. So to sum up my point, you are right that an education wont give you what you are speaking of, you should have gotten that way before you became an NCO. But, there is a distinction between an NCO and a senior NCO and I think having an education (not a degree) is an important part of performing the job well, not just performing the job. Also, please read over your posts before you send them, I had to read over the paragraph several times to understand it and some of your sentences are incoherent and make no sense. Thank you for making my point.

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SSG (Join to see)

>1 y

SFC,

I have no clue as to what your degree(s) are in and as I have but I will share mine with the you. I came into the Military with an Associates in Computer Science and then completed my Bachelors in CJA (Narcotics), both in my MOS that would help me once I left the ARMY. Having said that and hopefully I’ll clarify my last post, if not, promotable Specialists, Non Commissioned Officers (Sergeants) should have at least an Associates Degree. But having a degree would only be a recommendation and NOT a requirement IF you are going to continue your Military Career towards retirement. And to have a degree that will help you upon your retirement from the Military. Having any College education or as many credit’s a Soldier can get can put them ahead of their peers that is true. As I have explained to my Soldiers while I was in.

As I have performed in Leadership positions from Team Leader to Platoon Sergeant in a Combat zone, and in Garrison, I have found having that education has assisted me in both areas. And only being a Staff Sergeant, that performance was commended by fellow NCO’s as well of that of Senior NCO’s. On that note, having since being medically retired, I can say my writing is slacking a bit; since I do not need to write to a CSM, COL or a 2 Star, and stand before them at a briefing.

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MSG (Join to see)

Edited >1 y ago

Posted >1 y ago

.

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MSG (Join to see)

Edited >1 y ago

Posted >1 y ago

I have a question related to Senior NCOs with advanced
educations. At what point does an NCO
with a Master’s Degree stop being a traditional NCO and evolves into something
else? Educated NCOs provide their
commands valuable skills and insight and are educationally near peer with the
officers they work with. But are they
just cheaper officers? Should they become
Warrant Officers of some kind, even for branches without Warrant Officers?

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CW3 Ian Mains

>1 y

Educated NCOs already become Warrant Officers. What exactly are you suggesting?

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MSG (Join to see)

>1 y

CW2 Mains, I am a psychological operations sergeant and my
MOS is not a feeder for any Warrant Officer Program. Many positions held by
highly educated NCOs like, strategic planners assigned to the TSOCs, the MISOC
or USASOC, are not "typical" NCO positions with subordinate soldiers
to lead, but rather a member of staffs or planning teams comprised of field
grade officers. As for a feasible recommendation, I don’t have a good
suggestion other than to create Warrant Officer Programs for those MOSs that don’t
currently have one.

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MSG (Join to see)

Edited >1 y ago

Posted >1 y ago

This question actually prompts another question in my
mind. What is the value of a senior NCO
in this new leaner, more educated military that finds itself engaged in persistent
complex operations? A Sergeant Major is
generally a senior enlisted advisor to a Lieutenant Colonel or higher. These Officers generally have over 20 years
of service and a Master’s Degree or better.
They match the NCO in military experience and trump them in education. As a senior enlisted advisor, what advice
does a senior NCO with a high school diploma really have to offer in the way of
sound strategic advice for a commander or staff officer? If you are an under educated NCO in a room
full of highly experienced and educated officers, then you’re just a person in
the room taking up space. If you want to
be a highly valued senior NCO, get your Master’s Degree.

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SFC (Join to see)

>1 y

MSG, you make sense. Better retire.

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SFC Gary Fox

>1 y

MSG, the degree an officer has does not have a thing to do with the advisor role a SGM plays. What do degrees in Business, Political Science, or any other major have to do with being in the Infantry, Military Police, Combat Engineers, or any other military career field? Nothing really.

What the SGM brings to the table is years of experience in his occupational field at a level the officer does not.

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CW2 Geoff Lachance

Edited >1 y ago

Posted >1 y ago

No! That rank is reserved for those who have earned their degree the old fashioned way! You don't get that kind of respect from books!

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SSG Mike Angelo

Posted >1 y ago

No. Because the enlisted personnel are not wired to the college tract. And is that the message that a Senior NCO is making to subordinates?

..."Oh, lookie here, I got mine?" Officer career tracts are geared for the college and advance degrees. So, what are we trying to pull here? About 40 years ago, NCOs gave up personal counseling to their Soldiers...maybe NCOs need to take that back.

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SGT (Join to see)

Posted >1 y ago

Just my own curiousity so humor me....If we are requiring SNCO Corps. to attain a BS/BA, then what seperates them from a Branch Officer...OCS and thats it? Keep in mind im not minimalizing OCS but shouldnt there be something substainal to seperate the two?

This is how I see this currently stacking up...by what the Army is requiring

E-9:

SSD1-4

BCT

AIT

WLC

ALC

SLC

MANY years of experience

Positions

Reccomendations

Military Correspondence (up to E-6)

Additional Duty Assignments

Awards

4-Year degree

Deployments (not required but lets face facts if the army has 2 apples that are the EXACT same except one has a bow....they're taking the bow)

O-1:

4-Year Degree

Officer Canidate School

I undertand completely that this is skewd becuase it is comparing O-1 to E-9 and that an E-9 is paid over double an 0-1 with <2 years.

My question is what motivation do those in the enlisted ranks have to stay SNCO's or even follow that path when there is the option of having to do almost the exact same things and possibly be paid more as well as the other (forgive me for the lack of better words) perks that come with being an officer over enlisted?

Furthermore whats the point in the Green-Gold Program if you need the same stuff if you just STAY Green?

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1LT (Join to see)

>1 y

SGT Curtis I completely agree with you. However, the results are a little skewed there in your favor. An E-9 has been in a very long time while an O-1 has not. Compare the entry rank for both enlisted and officer.

Enlisted:
Basic Training and AIT

Officer:
4 year degree, OCS or ROTC, and BOLC

I completely agree with you that NCO's should not have to go to school but most do anyway (Just because its the nature of our leaders to want to know more). I had a MSG who was a ranger and was extremely advanced in schooling. He just preferred to not go officer route because he liked being close to the troops on the ground. Its sad but as an officer I'm already finding out that sooner or later I'll be sitting in a desk.

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SGT (Join to see)

>1 y

Oh yes I realize that the comparison was skewed as I stated before I was only expressing that there is little separating an officer and a SNCO to encourage those even at the equal rank from going enlisted vs officer except having to start again at the bottom of the totem pole

But you are very correct Sir, the entry level requirements are definitely higher for branch officers

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1LT (Join to see)

>1 y

I definitely agree with you SGT Curtis. I do know that to be competitive for CPT and be considered for selection below the zone, they recommend starting a Masters degree for officers. There's also the requirement that you can't go to O-5 without ILE where you have to get a masters there as well (Don;t quote me on this!). Either way, You are right in that there is little difference between a junior officer and senior NCO.

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PO1 Julio G.

Posted >1 y ago

It is in the Navy. In fact, you must have an Associates to advance to E7, a Bachelors for E8, and a Masters for E9.

At least that's how it was right before I retired in '09. I think that policy was just being enforced then.

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1SG (Join to see)

Posted >1 y ago

I agree with most people on here in that it shouldn't be a requirement. I am also with the camp that says it should way very heavily with the board members on the fact that a candidate for promotion to E-9 has a degree. I know that it does to some extent now, but I think that greater emphasis should be placed on it. It would help them mentor the officers in the unit and show the junior and senior NCO's that it can be done prior to their departure from the Service.

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SFC (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

Yes. BUT that "requirement" should be relaxed during a time of sustained combat operations and for some period after afterwards. Just as the NCOES requirement was waived for a while during the height of the wars.

The Army has already identified civilian education as an important asset of developing well-rounded leaders. SSD, NCOES, and civilian education are all tools that help develop the professional Soldier.

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SGT (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

In what time frame, in what subject, from what college?<div><br></div><div>If i have a 4 year degree and join as a SPC and never take another class my whole career am i still on par with the E-8 who just completed his degree in the last 6 years?</div><div><br></div><div>What if my degree is in childhood education and my peers degree is in military history or counter terriorism?</div><div><br></div><div>What if 35 of my credits are gimme credits from Joes Tech College and my peer has a degree with all hours from Harvard???</div><div><br></div><div>College education does not make you a better leader and it is also not an accurate measuring stick when comparing different degrees from different colleges from different time periods. MOS proficiency tests and higher standards at NCOES schools, 1SG and SGM academies would be worth more than a college degree! Knock the  TIG requirements back one year for MSG and SGM boards(or keep them), then make the academies a year long school, send the guys/gals packing that don't need to be in a leadership position and keep the ones who do.</div>

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SSG (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

Only if you give NCOs time like officers get. May by not a full 4 years off, but over time and with promotions, give an NCO 2 semesters....to also include that college option many commanders offer but not a lot of NCOs take advantage of.

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CSM Mike Maynard

>1 y

We really don't give most officers time during Active Duty to pursue a degree, especially not "full 4 years off" like you state. They get their degree prior to commissioning and some get an opportunity to get an advanced degree in exchange for more time.

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SSgt George Brown

Posted 12 y ago

I do not think so, life experience should count for something.  The testing will cull out those who should not be in higher leadership positions.  A 4 year degree is required for officer ranks, it should not be for those who enlist.

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1SG(P) (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

I'm reading all the posts and I wanted to ask. What type of 4yr degree??? I'm seeing a lot of Yes and No's but what type?? Would a Coaching degree, be better then a IT for a Leader?? What about automotive. Would this be better then Amin or Business??

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1SG (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

Just like anything else you do in your career, if you have one before being considered, it is to your advantage. Depending on the Soldier situation, there may be times where the have missions, family, and other priorities in their life that keep them from a degree. You force Soldiers to concentrate on degree completion, when TOTAL SOLDIER CONCEPT is how they look at you on the boards.

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SSgt George Brown

12 y

Or Choice. They may be great leaders, but would rather fish than get a degree! OR do community work, or Toastmasters, or travel.

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1SG(P) (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

No, Its does not increase your ability to be a leader. It does help with critical thinking and communication skills. As the CSM Maynard said below. Going to your NCO Schools and doing your best at them, will also helps with critical thinking and communication skills. But in todays Army, you need all you can get so you can get promoted. Just my 2 Cents

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SFC (Join to see)

12 y

I would have to say no... While getting a degree separates you from your peers and helps you to stand out i am in complete agreement that it does not make you a better leader. I worked for a MAJ that had his degree in Landscape Architecture. So how does him knowing how to plan out a yard or golf course help him become a leader?

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CSM Mike Maynard

12 y

I agree that the degree in and of itself won't make a better leader - it's which classes that a person takes that actually has the ability to make them a better leader - anything dealing communications, history, management, etc won't make a leader, but it will make someone better than if they hadn't taken those courses.

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1SG(P) (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

This question begs another question, do the current and previous SEAs lack ability if they don't have a Bachelors?

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SGT (Join to see)

12 y

Syrian Electronic Army? Im drawing a blank on any other acronym. Trying to understand your post, but my Alabama public education is winning for now.

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MSG Bobby Ewing

Posted 12 y ago

MSG Quick,

Thanks for your post on my question in reference should "Should individuals receive a masters degree upon successful graduation from the USASMA?" From reviewing all the posts under your question and mine, I see this is another debate that could go on forever. The feedback from across the services and throughout the ranks is great information that I will share with my troops.

I don't feel a bachelor's degree should be a prerequisite for promotion/selection for SGM. There were some great points made by multiple senior NCOs from across the services below and under my question. I just wish there was a tailored course for MSGs and SGMs that they can compete for that awards a degree once completed. For officers selected for the US Army War College, they are awarded a Master of Strategic Studies degree. Since all officers hold a bachelors degree, this is possible. So could there be a separate college or program for our senior enlisted leaders?

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SFC A.M. Drake

>1 y

CSM Maynard,

I'm going to disagree with your last comment of

"If we were all educated/trained the same, we wouldn't have that and we wouldn't be as effective as we are now."

Because as our country gets older, society has changed to where you either move up or move out (QSP/QMP Boards)(RIF's) i.e. schools, education, tough assignments or you will not be looked at favorably at the boards, meaning you will be passed up for the soldier that went the extra mile. Another example comes to mind back in the 1600's, 1700's, up until 2001. Those wars that was fought back then is certainly not fought the same fashion as now, we look back at those periods for our learning as now we know better. So the same way with our armed forces, we are smarter in how we do most things, and better trained than ever, so I believe its a natural progression to having everyone educated or at least striving to leave the Army in a better position than when we started. Because as a collective we are stronger than individually. Just my take on it.

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CSM Mike Maynard

>1 y

SFC Drake - no one is going to be QSP'd/QMP'd/Separated because they don't have a college degree.

SMA Preston's comments about degrees being great "personal" achievements and the recent changes wrt the ability to use Tuition Assistance should let you know that the Army wants you being great at your job and great at leadership FIRST. Once you're a "T" at those, then go get some college.

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SFC A.M. Drake

>1 y

CSM Maynard,

I agree no one is going to get the dreaded Q's for not having a college degree, the point I was making is that as our great nation progresses then it's to be a great advantage to be ready and get that degree to remain relevant. The 600-25 in all MOS's says that getting a college degree as being a good thing, so lastly if it's in the regs for the MOS, that a college degree is needed. Then why not get it? Besides learning is a life long thing, and the only time that stops is when you pass on.

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CSM Mike Maynard

>1 y

SFC Drake - I agree that taking college and pursuing a degree is a good thing. In fact, I think it's a discriminator in seeing who believes in self-improvement - so, why take away that identifier of self-improvement by making a degree mandatory.

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PO2 Pete Haga

Posted 12 y ago

seems to me that if they have a 4 year collage degree they should leap frog into the officers ranks not nco because that is what you need to be an officer. all of the Master Chiefs I had in the service had been in the Navy for 25 to 30 years and still had to salute that boot ensign that had a 4 year collage degree to get that gold bar!

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SGT Tommy Silvas

Posted 12 y ago

absolutely not by the time your ready for E-9 promotion a four year degree is nothing compared the experience you all ready have

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PO2 Orlando Sims, MPA

Posted 12 y ago

An enlisted individual that possesses a combination of education, leadership, and technical ability will be a valuable asset to any command.

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SPC (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

MSG, if that's the case, would the Army be willing to say, give you 18 months leave after you make E6 to pursue an associates and then jump right back into your slot on active duty, then after x amount of time as an E8 cut you out for leave to finish your bachelors?
Because if not, you might be relegating your leaders to potentially sub standard degrees from online universities, when the option would exist to possibly get bright and intelligent senior NCO's into top tier management programs, or ivy league intelligence degrees and the likes that could actually truly benefit their careers AND the Army...

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SGM Matthew Quick

12 y

The Army is changing, SPC O'Donnell.

If our senior leaders are unwilling to change with it and remain competitive for promotion, there's programs in place to deal with complacency.

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CSM Mike Maynard

12 y

We won't see the Army allowing all/most SSGs or MSGs 18 months off to pursue a degree.

Just the sheer volume of folks that would be out of our formations would decimate readiness and strength.

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SSgt George Brown

12 y

MSG(P) Who determines what should change? Was that a requirement when that person first enlisted? Why the push for this? A degree does not a great leader make. I am sure those who are doing a great job, are exceptional in their reviews, and do well in their tests, probably know what needs to be done.

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SGT(P) Kyle B.

Posted 12 y ago

well, most Soldiers already have to get a 4 year degree just to make points to become an E-5. so i say yes. they should have one if many of their subordinates are required to do so for promotion already.

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