Posted on Mar 22, 2016
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Tell my why we should keep Soldiers in who take FOREVER with multiple attempts to qualify with their assigned weapon but chapter Soldiers out who fail TWO record APFTs in a row.
I say if you can't hit the broad side of a barn with one hand touching the barn you need to look at other avenues of employment.
I say if you can't hit the broad side of a barn with one hand touching the barn you need to look at other avenues of employment.
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 58
Well this is something that will never happen. I've trained some of the biggest Gomer Piles to at least QUALIFY. Might take a few tries, but we're not chaptering someone on not qualifying any time soon.
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i see a major devide here, the squad leaders and/or team leaders who actually fight next to these guys and who know what they're truly capable of doing say get rid of them and give me someone who's capable, the highrt ranks throw the blame at the SSG's and SGT's...interesting. To the SGM's who say it's our fault, we're not training them etc...have you never had a soldier that just didn't or refused to get it? how much time do we spend on under performers while leaving the committed soldiers largely to their own devices?
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SGM Erik Marquez
Yes of course you see I was part of the Privet to SGM program in the mid 1980's...never was a team leader, section leader, platoon sergeant, 1SG, drill sergeant, did not train units and deploy 4 times, in three theaters and walked patrols on every one.. so you caught me.... I've never trained a privet that had a hard time with a weapon, never had to mentor and train an NCO who was ineffective at teaching a SM how to shoot...never had to take an officer or senior NCO off the firing line and provide remedial training...
Or it could be your WAY off base ......
Have I met ONE soldier that "did not get it" ? sure.. but qualification was never the issue and the were involuntarily separated for a verity of reasons. But not one, not ever was there ever a need to separate a SM because they could not qualify. Nor a need to shoot for my commander, some staff officer because we were unable to train them.
Or it could be your WAY off base ......
Have I met ONE soldier that "did not get it" ? sure.. but qualification was never the issue and the were involuntarily separated for a verity of reasons. But not one, not ever was there ever a need to separate a SM because they could not qualify. Nor a need to shoot for my commander, some staff officer because we were unable to train them.
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Sometimes leadership fails, for some reason, I haven't shot an m4 since I left basic training in 2014, and I'm told the next time I'm firing it's for qualifying.
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Curiosity questions (all serious).
How big of an issue is this? As in how many times have you encountered this? When you encountered this, what diagnostic steps did you perform to determine the problem? Had they previously qualified? (what score) What was the condition of their current weapon? Right/Left handed? Right/Left Eye dominant? Additional Range or Coach time?
If we only send a troop to the range once a year and they struggle, we dedicate more time (in theory) just like if someone who struggles on a PFT gets more PT time.
How big of an issue is this? As in how many times have you encountered this? When you encountered this, what diagnostic steps did you perform to determine the problem? Had they previously qualified? (what score) What was the condition of their current weapon? Right/Left handed? Right/Left Eye dominant? Additional Range or Coach time?
If we only send a troop to the range once a year and they struggle, we dedicate more time (in theory) just like if someone who struggles on a PFT gets more PT time.
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SSG (Join to see)
I'm not sure how things are going in the Corps, but in the Army we are facing big challenges getting battle focused training in non-combat arms units. Army training schedules are currently flooded with briefings, mandatory computerized training, and everything BUT warrior tasks. In the last 8 years I was in the Army I went to the field 3 times for a total of 3 weeks! Unbelievable!
We're failing on the fundamentals because we are low on $$$ and too distracted by whatever (insert acronym here) mandatory training becomes the latest craze to satisfy political correctness or some General Officers pet program.
We cannot take a dump in the Army without a certificate, briefing, risk assessment, and about 12 posters on the wall to remind us how we should do it. It's micromanagement on a scale I have never experienced before.
Ya, I said it....we are failing to be warriors first. It might ruffle some feathers but it's the truth.
We're failing on the fundamentals because we are low on $$$ and too distracted by whatever (insert acronym here) mandatory training becomes the latest craze to satisfy political correctness or some General Officers pet program.
We cannot take a dump in the Army without a certificate, briefing, risk assessment, and about 12 posters on the wall to remind us how we should do it. It's micromanagement on a scale I have never experienced before.
Ya, I said it....we are failing to be warriors first. It might ruffle some feathers but it's the truth.
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Depends on the soldier and how valuable they are.
Does my Neurologist take a couple extra rounds and paperwork to qual his weapon? We're gonna want to look the other way.
Does that Nuclear engineer some how curve bullets around targets to hit only dirt? Again keep him.
That said any of these regular non fancy people... Especially within the enlisted ranks. They can't hit 23 targets what use are they? Conventional war or not... I've seen enlisted of every type be placed in positions that COULD find them having to shoot on that 2 way firing range.
Qualifications have become a check the block now that the army is cutting back. My current unit doesn't even actually have "ammo" in the budget and if you have a passing weapons card.... you're not going to a range. It's a dam shame and a failure for many young soldiers who will PCS from here having never touched something more modern than a Vietnam aged m16
Personally.... A soldier tells me they're bad at shooting. I take that as a sign that they don't care. I never fired a weapon before military service. I qualified in basic at 24 hits which disgusted me. I haven't shot below a 36 since because I'd badger good shooting soldiers on ranges on how the hell im supposed to shoot.
That said.... The entirety is a bit obsolete. Rifle quals should come with a stress test. I'd rather be able to tell if I can put this soldier under stress and still have him/her preform as needed that someone tell me they shoot a slick 40/40
Does my Neurologist take a couple extra rounds and paperwork to qual his weapon? We're gonna want to look the other way.
Does that Nuclear engineer some how curve bullets around targets to hit only dirt? Again keep him.
That said any of these regular non fancy people... Especially within the enlisted ranks. They can't hit 23 targets what use are they? Conventional war or not... I've seen enlisted of every type be placed in positions that COULD find them having to shoot on that 2 way firing range.
Qualifications have become a check the block now that the army is cutting back. My current unit doesn't even actually have "ammo" in the budget and if you have a passing weapons card.... you're not going to a range. It's a dam shame and a failure for many young soldiers who will PCS from here having never touched something more modern than a Vietnam aged m16
Personally.... A soldier tells me they're bad at shooting. I take that as a sign that they don't care. I never fired a weapon before military service. I qualified in basic at 24 hits which disgusted me. I haven't shot below a 36 since because I'd badger good shooting soldiers on ranges on how the hell im supposed to shoot.
That said.... The entirety is a bit obsolete. Rifle quals should come with a stress test. I'd rather be able to tell if I can put this soldier under stress and still have him/her preform as needed that someone tell me they shoot a slick 40/40
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
I believe the stat for Vietnam was that only 1 out of every 3 rounds fired was aimed. We still won the battles.
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SPC (Join to see)
1SG James Wise -
I believe my statement was misinterpret.
I don't mean a soldier goes out shoots below standard and boom initiate the flag!
I believe in training. A SM that can't shoot and I mean cannot shoot! Should be worked with By their NCOs hopefully. Train em and retrain them. It can be learned. Far to often what I see in this army from non combat arms MOS is range time is seen as a chore. People messing around joking while briefs are given, instructions given, then they hit the lane and take 80'rounds to zero alone!
I wish units trained to standard and not to time and gave the recommended amount of rounds to zero. If you can't do it in that amount of rounds then get off the lane. Head over to retain and then come back on. Then much like the APFT there is a Qual day. If you can't do it then flag the soldier and have them retrain over a set period with ranges just for quals.... Is this ever able to happen? No never because we don't care about these things in the army.
Going off of what I mentioned. Our army isn't any good for a career in those high skill specialties out Army needs. The benefits is seriously what keeps many of them in. Our army comes with a lot of dumbass moments and things that if we impose to much on a person who doesn't need the army they'll just walk off faster than we can finish a sentence. Then the DOD will hire them anyway as civilian employee for more cost.
This already happens in our army... Honestly it's one of the few instances I can justify it happening.
Also I didn't mean that the qual should be waived or the requirement of hitting a range. Yes they need to know basic soldier skills for the unlikely event that the day comes and they find themselves in the situation to soldier on.
I believe my statement was misinterpret.
I don't mean a soldier goes out shoots below standard and boom initiate the flag!
I believe in training. A SM that can't shoot and I mean cannot shoot! Should be worked with By their NCOs hopefully. Train em and retrain them. It can be learned. Far to often what I see in this army from non combat arms MOS is range time is seen as a chore. People messing around joking while briefs are given, instructions given, then they hit the lane and take 80'rounds to zero alone!
I wish units trained to standard and not to time and gave the recommended amount of rounds to zero. If you can't do it in that amount of rounds then get off the lane. Head over to retain and then come back on. Then much like the APFT there is a Qual day. If you can't do it then flag the soldier and have them retrain over a set period with ranges just for quals.... Is this ever able to happen? No never because we don't care about these things in the army.
Going off of what I mentioned. Our army isn't any good for a career in those high skill specialties out Army needs. The benefits is seriously what keeps many of them in. Our army comes with a lot of dumbass moments and things that if we impose to much on a person who doesn't need the army they'll just walk off faster than we can finish a sentence. Then the DOD will hire them anyway as civilian employee for more cost.
This already happens in our army... Honestly it's one of the few instances I can justify it happening.
Also I didn't mean that the qual should be waived or the requirement of hitting a range. Yes they need to know basic soldier skills for the unlikely event that the day comes and they find themselves in the situation to soldier on.
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1SG James Wise
SPC (Join to see) my apologies and thank you for the clarification. It's hard to get things across sometimes in writing, which is a good point of a place like RallyPoint - it helps us all learn to write and communicate with our peers, subordinates, and superiors in a more meaningful and polite way. Again, thank you for clarifying and especially being polite about it, I don't see enough of that from newer Soldiers sometimes, good for you!
I will still disagree about specialist jobs, there is a Dr. I've had that loves what he does in the Army for Soldiers even though he could make more on the outside as a surgeon. It's not just the love of the job, it his love of the Army and Soldiers too...those are the specialist people we need, not those that want to feel like their doing us a favor by serving and want privileges or requirements waived!
Thanks,
MSG Wise
I will still disagree about specialist jobs, there is a Dr. I've had that loves what he does in the Army for Soldiers even though he could make more on the outside as a surgeon. It's not just the love of the job, it his love of the Army and Soldiers too...those are the specialist people we need, not those that want to feel like their doing us a favor by serving and want privileges or requirements waived!
Thanks,
MSG Wise
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SPC (Join to see)
1SG James Wise I'll agree with you on that one MSG. I work in a hospital now and it is refreshing to meet those types of providers. Who do this job because they want to provide the best care possible for soldiers. I'm fortunate to be surrounded by providers in my current clinic who share this attitude and our clinics numbers show that. I've also met the opposite those who bust every basic regulation and still are held to a secret separate standard as we can't afford to lose them.
Do I hate that? yes... yet there isn't a single thing I could do about it.
Do I hate that? yes... yet there isn't a single thing I could do about it.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
BRM is a TAUGHT skill. That means Leadership must be part of that equation.
Or should we start doing individual skill "Witch hunts?" For example, what about people who struggle with Land Nav? Or obstacle courses? Where do we draw the line? There are a lot of "Basic Soldier" skills (See the SMCT list). Can we pick any one of those and chapter out those who cannot get a first time GO?
Or should we start doing individual skill "Witch hunts?" For example, what about people who struggle with Land Nav? Or obstacle courses? Where do we draw the line? There are a lot of "Basic Soldier" skills (See the SMCT list). Can we pick any one of those and chapter out those who cannot get a first time GO?
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If you can't shoot, what good are you. In law enforcement if you fail to qualify your weapon is pulled and aren't allowed to perform your job. Eventually this can lead to your dismissal.
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1LT (Join to see)
If you cant shoot you can't graduate basic training and therefore would be chaptered out. If your a SM and can't qualify then remedial training is required until that soldier CAN qualify. The problem is the Army puts zero focus on BRM training once your out of Basic...how can you expect soldiers to qualify if we as leaders put zero emphasis and effort into training them?
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
While the intended target was hit, 9 other bystanders were hit as well.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire.html

NYPD: 9 shooting bystander victims hit by police gunfire | Fox News
All nine people wounded during a dramatic confrontation between police and a gunman outside the Empire State Building were struck by bullets fired by the two officers, police said Saturday, citing ballistics evidence.
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