Posted on Sep 18, 2014
Should PFCs stand at "Parade Rest" for a SPC?
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We had Lieutenants saluting each other, now I ask this: Should an E-3 stand at the position of parade rest for an E4 Specialist (not a corporal)?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 180
It's good practice to show that respect, but if said Specialist is putting emphasis on it, then he/she needs to slow their roll. Maybe if he/she is in charge of a detail and is giving specific instructions, maybe. But day to day convo and interaction, no way.
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My first active duty unit's company commander thought he had discipline issues. He directed that if we interacted with anyone above our pay grade it was at parade rest. Kinda felt somewhat demeaning to stand at that position while talking to a PV2. Glad that foolishness only lasted about a week.
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Privates in basic training and AIT get more leadership training than E2-E4 at the unit level and that is a mistake in coddling troops. Get rid of SPC and make it CPL and start training troops to be leaders instead of followers so they are prepared when the time comes. I have always found it odd that you can take a SPC send them to a board and a school for a month and they are supposed to be ready for SGT when they have never had any real leadership responsibility before this. The Marines have Lance Corporal and Corporals out of necessity because they have a smaller force and need people to step up early. If the Army enacted their stance they would weed out people earlier and not wait until they are NCOs to find them lacking. There would be a more professional force if we changed our thinking. The forces are shrinking so it is time to get rid of an old system that does not reflect the intelligence of today's troops. They can do more than what they are asked to do or given responsibility to do, we expect them to perform in war Train for that expectation in peace instead of spending all week in motor pools, going through the motions in SGTs time, or doing PowerPoint slide field exercises and train the way we should. We won't have this debate and E4s will all be deserving of CPL if the system changes or they can be sent home.
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I was in a unit once that morale and discipline was low. The CO and 1Sgt mandated that you stand at parade rest when speaking to higher ranking folks.E1s stoops at parade rest for E2s and forward. Took about a week to make a point. Depends on the situation.
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If that SPC is holding the position of an NCO then yes. I was smoked as a PFC team leader for no making my SPC stand at parade rest for me.
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If he/she was doing it to correct the customs and courtesy's of the Privates (if they were deficient), then I would say sure. That doesn't sound like the case here.
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I'd like to know this as well. Last drill a E5 yelled at me saying "why aren't you going to parade rest when speaking to Jacobs!" Jacobs was a E4. I was never told to do this for E4s and below. He made me feel like a shit bag solider for not knowing this. But when I asked my peers E4s and below all off them said we do t go to parade rests for E4s. So you can see I am abit tied here. Who was in the wrong? Was the sergeant just being an ass messing with me?
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MAJ (Join to see)
Generally speaking, you go to parade rest for an NCO. So if the E4 is a CPL, then you should go to parade rest. If they are a SPC, then no.
That being said, it's a good idea to go to parade rest when speaking to your direct line supervisor, so if your squad leader (for example) is a SPC, I would go to parade rest even though they aren't an NCO, out of respect.
That being said, it's a good idea to go to parade rest when speaking to your direct line supervisor, so if your squad leader (for example) is a SPC, I would go to parade rest even though they aren't an NCO, out of respect.
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SPC Matthew Birkinbine
Well put, sir. That's kind of the direction I was going with my comment too. It's good for GP to do it simply to get in, and stay in, the habit of it.
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SPC Matthew Birkinbine
While some leaders are practical jokers, some also are of the mindset that if you don't show junior personnel who are senior to you the respect you would show an NCO, you may not have the military bearing to be professional at all times, even toward NCOs. I've found it best to acknowledge and accept the NCO's instruction and get your professional bearing back in line. Let that specialist get into the habit of telling you to relax, because at the same time, it's grooming him/her to become a good NCO too.
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Power hungry morons... cant wait to see how they act when they get promoted!!! They will not be very liked and probably wont make it far in the military.
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Part of me says no, and part of me says yes.
In all honesty, a SPC does outrank a PFC, and for that there should be a level of respect shown towards the SPC. But at the same time a SPC is a junior enlisted, so part of me thinks it shouldn't matter. When I was in the service as a SPC, I had a few privates under me that would stand at parade rest without me ever asking them to, and it was a bit confusing but I never corrected them.
When I was a private at Fort Bliss, I was taught that if someone outranks you, give them respect. The rank structure is there for a reason, whether you like it or not, so when I was a private I would stand at parade rest for everyone who outranked me.
In all honesty, a SPC does outrank a PFC, and for that there should be a level of respect shown towards the SPC. But at the same time a SPC is a junior enlisted, so part of me thinks it shouldn't matter. When I was in the service as a SPC, I had a few privates under me that would stand at parade rest without me ever asking them to, and it was a bit confusing but I never corrected them.
When I was a private at Fort Bliss, I was taught that if someone outranks you, give them respect. The rank structure is there for a reason, whether you like it or not, so when I was a private I would stand at parade rest for everyone who outranked me.
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SSG (Join to see)
A PV2 outranks a PV1. A PFC outranks a PV2. A SPC outranks a PFC. If that SPC is abusing his rank/making everyone lower rank do his work, it's their NCO's duty to correct the SPC; likewise, it's the NCO's responsibility to reinforce the rank structure and ensure the privates are giving the SPC their due respect.
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I actually asked some Specialists that I had on Staff Duty with me the other day. Now I am on Staff Duty today and still milling this question. The one thought that they brought up was the Spec4 rank being where they would have to go to Parade rest for them. The answer before that was well I would expect them to go to Parade rest for me, I am a team leader. My question to him was then, what if I brought you a brand new kid just off the plane that didn't know you from Adam and therefore didn't KNOW that you were a team leader? How would he KNOW he was supposed to go to parade rest for you? What about the SPC standing next to you that was not a team leader? Then the thought of SPC4 came up again and that is the only other thing that made sense.
Here is why I am torn. I have fought the battle in the MUB and in the 1SG office where I have circled NO to that PFC making SPC. The following month, I am not at the MUB or the meeting where the White Book is covered and suddenly for some reason this dude is circled YES and I have a SPC that does not in anyway deserve to be a PFC much LESS a SPC. So I am supposed to have PFCs stand at parade rest for this guy that I would NEVER put in charge of latrine detail much less anything dealing with a Soldiers well being just because they have a Shield and a bird on it? It is a tough call on my part. I don't know that I would agree with it honestly. I RECEIVED a SPC from another post, FLAGED him shortly after for being ABCP failure, but even BEFORE then I fired him for being an incompetent leader. I DID try though, and he was not up to it and I am not going to have an incompetent person leading Soldiers under me. Those guys standing at Parade Rest, giving them the same respect that they render my NCOs that earned it, I would have to lean towards no personally. If they are made CPL, naturally that is different but as long as it is the shield I have to say no.
Here is why I am torn. I have fought the battle in the MUB and in the 1SG office where I have circled NO to that PFC making SPC. The following month, I am not at the MUB or the meeting where the White Book is covered and suddenly for some reason this dude is circled YES and I have a SPC that does not in anyway deserve to be a PFC much LESS a SPC. So I am supposed to have PFCs stand at parade rest for this guy that I would NEVER put in charge of latrine detail much less anything dealing with a Soldiers well being just because they have a Shield and a bird on it? It is a tough call on my part. I don't know that I would agree with it honestly. I RECEIVED a SPC from another post, FLAGED him shortly after for being ABCP failure, but even BEFORE then I fired him for being an incompetent leader. I DID try though, and he was not up to it and I am not going to have an incompetent person leading Soldiers under me. Those guys standing at Parade Rest, giving them the same respect that they render my NCOs that earned it, I would have to lean towards no personally. If they are made CPL, naturally that is different but as long as it is the shield I have to say no.
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While the corporal is a NCO rank, and should receive the courtesies as such, the specialist is still junior enlisted. The separation is there for a reason.
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As a SPC I have not earned the right for a soldier to stand at parade rest for me. I have seen in a line unit at fort wainwright that e-3s have to stand at parade rest for e4s and that's why a PFC did for me after I asked him why he was doing it.
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SFC (Join to see)
A Better question would be why is a junior company grade officer dismissing the question as "dumb" when there is plenty of commentary in this thread that discusses the practice of junior enlisted standing at parade rest for each other especially among the combat arms? And doing so without offering any original thought/discussion on the point other than a "down" vote? I respect your position to say that it is a dumb question. However, does that mean that you also think that the aforementioned practice is dumb? Please elaborate CPT (Join to see) .
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CPT (Join to see)
You are correct, I commented in hast and inappropriately; I apologize. That being said; there is no way a SPC should demand a fellow junior soldier to stand at Parade rest for him. He has the same amount of claim to being saluted, zilch. The only grey line is if he is in a NCO slot/job. In a similar way we'll call a SFC a 1SG if he is the Company 1SG.
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In all technicalities, a specialist is not an nco, they're still junior enlisted.
Thus I see no reason to stand at parade rest.
Thus I see no reason to stand at parade rest.
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The rank system out there is for the reason. And we stick to the Army Values. Some people realize that, some don't. Respect the senior in rank than you is one perfect example. That's what makes us professionals. By regulation, E4 is not an NCO and E3 and below don't have to snap in parade rest in front of him. Now, good E4 should couch and remind any E3 and below to do that in front of the NCO. And when time comes, when that E3 will become one, he will be expecting the same treatment of professionalism from lower enlisted.
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I would say that for sure you want to respect soldiers who out rank yourself. That said, you also need to respect the soldiers of less rank than yourself. Parade rest is a sign of respect. I don't think it should be expected of a pfc to go to parade rest for a specialist, but at the same time if you are a pfc getting instructions/orders/advise from specialist you would go to parade rest to show that you are paying attention and giving a fellow soldier the respect he/she deserves.
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There is no regulatory requirement to do so, so no. However, as a PSG I have had Soldiers subordinate to their SPC team leader stand at parade rest when addressing them in an effort to differentiate the position from their perceived peer relationship as junior enlisted service members. Is it the right thing? Not really. The correct answer in that scenario is to laterally promote the E-4 team leader to Corporal which is the purpose of that rank in my opinion. What is really inspiring though, is to see a subordinate Soldier stand at parade rest for his Team Leader not because he was ever told to do so, but out of earned respect of the junior leader in that position. I believe in the requirement to exercise courtesy by standing at parade rest as a measure of discipline, but I do think it is over-emphasized sometimes. As I have been guilty of making subordinate Soldiers stand at parade rest for their SPC superior, I have often been guilty of telling Soldiers subordinate to me to stop sweating the craziness and just communicate the message so we can get to work.
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Without pause, YES!
What did SSG McCulley just say?
There are criteria that must be met: A> Said SPC must be holding an NCO coded position on the MTO&E. (My preferred example is an SPC holding a teamleader billet) B> Said SPC must be assigned Soldiers that s/he counsels and are also coded on said MTO&E under previously mentioned NCO position. C> ONLY THOSE SOLDIERS SHOULD DO IT! It shouldn't be a thing, but the troop is obviously a NCO Trainee who's rank just hasn't caught up. Their command would not entrust the responsibility of troops upon them *we hope*.
The more dangerous thing, in my opinion, is comfortability and the perception of those troops seeing that future NCO as Jr Enlisted. I made a big boy decision my last promotion and since my DOR was during PCS leave I had one of my dad's old Vietnam war buds, a retired CSM, promote me. He even got a hair cut.. pretty cool. I showed up to my next assignment (where a vast majority of the instructors are E6s) as a SSG and was always perceived as such. I've seen others who promoted soon after arriving where I observed 'rank bias' continue. Because I made a decision I didn't have to deal with it. There was a reason we used to move folks when they got promoted. IDK about you but, I love it when my juniors get promoted.. one less social barrier.. one step closer to peerhood (that is where we hide the beer) .
What did SSG McCulley just say?
There are criteria that must be met: A> Said SPC must be holding an NCO coded position on the MTO&E. (My preferred example is an SPC holding a teamleader billet) B> Said SPC must be assigned Soldiers that s/he counsels and are also coded on said MTO&E under previously mentioned NCO position. C> ONLY THOSE SOLDIERS SHOULD DO IT! It shouldn't be a thing, but the troop is obviously a NCO Trainee who's rank just hasn't caught up. Their command would not entrust the responsibility of troops upon them *we hope*.
The more dangerous thing, in my opinion, is comfortability and the perception of those troops seeing that future NCO as Jr Enlisted. I made a big boy decision my last promotion and since my DOR was during PCS leave I had one of my dad's old Vietnam war buds, a retired CSM, promote me. He even got a hair cut.. pretty cool. I showed up to my next assignment (where a vast majority of the instructors are E6s) as a SSG and was always perceived as such. I've seen others who promoted soon after arriving where I observed 'rank bias' continue. Because I made a decision I didn't have to deal with it. There was a reason we used to move folks when they got promoted. IDK about you but, I love it when my juniors get promoted.. one less social barrier.. one step closer to peerhood (that is where we hide the beer) .
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I'll start by saying that I have been both, SPC and CPL. Went to PLDC as a SPC, was promoted to CPL, CPLs were later phased out for a while and I found myself wearing SPC rank, once again. That said, as I saw it, as a SPC, I was not an NC. I was an experienced PFC, an equal. As a CPL, I felt like I was barely a Junior NC and never thought a PV1, PVT, PFC or a SPC should stand at Parade at Parade Rest for me. I suppose I could have done it as an E-4 CPL, but wouldn't have even entertained such an absurd thought while wearing E-4 SPC rank. This clown must be power hungry. As for the Lieutenants saluting one another, are they 2LTs saluting 1LTs? That is understandable. Two LTs of equal rank is pretty dumb.
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COL Thom Brooks
Lieutenants, for purposes of saluting are considered equal, whether they are 2LT or 1LT. You are absolutely correct in your interpretation of your own past situations. BLUF: NCO's deserve the courtesy required of their junior Soldiers. A specialist is the most senior non NCO enlisted rank, no more, no less. The SPC is not an NCO.
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