Posted on Sep 18, 2014
SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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We had Lieutenants saluting each other, now I ask this: Should an E-3 stand at the position of parade rest for an E4 Specialist (not a corporal)?

FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.

I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?

What say you RP?
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SSG Flight Medic
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We had a private E-2 in my unit disrespect and refuse to follow orders and my PSG instituted a rule of standing at parade rest for any one of higher rank than you. It was put into place to teach said SM a lesson but to me it has only turned into a joke amongsts those of lower rank and it embarrases the specialists because the get made fun of by the rest of the unit. As a caviat I believe standing at parade rest ruins comradeship and can hurt unit integrity. If I'm being addressed by someone in a position of authority who is currently using that authority of course I will show the proper respect by standing at parade rest. If I'm always at parade rest for you though. It makes any conversation awkward in my opinion.
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SSG John M.
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You Dare Cross the E-4 Mafia?
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SSG John M.
SSG John M.
>1 y
And I'm pretty sure if you were a E1-E3 in a Ranger Battalion in the 80s you had better be at parade rest or be gone....I have lots of friends who were "Batt Boys" but I never served in the Regiment so I'll defer to them.
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PFC Glen King
PFC Glen King
>1 y
In my unit a PCF better lock it up for a Spec. I had a detail as a PFC and an E5 was in it. He stood at parade rest to me. Of course I did to him. He was trying to get into the Ranger Regiment, and I was in. It's a case of courtesy and respect. Try not standing at parade rest for the E4 Mafia with the tab. Have fun with that one.
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SGT Team Leader
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Hell no... A Spc is not I am authority position, but at the same time a Spc can drop a Pvt. as long as they do the PT with them. Potato pototo
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SPC James Mcneil
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I never forced any PFCs to stand at parade rest to talk to me. However, I remember a 1SG telling a PFC he was supposed to do so and then yelling at me for not enforcing it.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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That is interesting... In my experience, when a 1SG sees two E4 and below standing around/talking to each other, he is looking for an NCO to give them something to do.
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SPC James Mcneil
SPC James Mcneil
>1 y
That's my experience too. But since I was giving him instructions, I guess the 1SG wanted him to be at parade rest. I was more interested in making sure he understood the instructions.
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SGT(P) Military Police
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So today i had a soldier that came up to saying i had to stand a parade rest for a specialist Team Leader and when i told them that in FM 7-21.13 chapter 4 it states NCO's was i wrong for pulling the FM on this team leader and PFC Yes or NO and why???
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SPC Military Police Officer (Mp)
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There's a phrase in there "unless otherwise directed". And the fact that a leader can add to a standard but not take away. Unless an order is illegal, immoral, or unethical, it shouldn't be questioned to begin with.
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SGT(P) Military Police
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never been directed or in policy... it was a soldier that got mad because i told him to stop fucking with my soldier and his team leader got mad that i told him that and then the soldier tried to tell me to go to parade rest to his team leader while eatin at the DFAC on top of that eating
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SPC Military Police Officer (Mp)
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Book answer: pull him aside and inform him of regulation.
What I prolly would've done: call him out in public and make him look like a jack ass.
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SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA
SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA
>1 y
The FM only tells you that you HAVE TO stand at PR for an NCO.
It doesn't say you can not do it for an enlisted soldier that outranks you.

GMA all day.
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PFC Zanie Young
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Edited >1 y ago
Specialists are not NCOs, therefore, PFCs only stand at parade rest before CPLs and above. I never stood at parade rest in front of any specialist while I was in nor I was required to.
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SSG Andrew Dydasco
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I could understand where CW2 Evans is coming from. Authority by position, rather than rank. But overall I don't see how this would be helpful at all... You give the PFC a false sense of authority over his/her "subordinate."
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1SG Vet Technician
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You realize that I'm not being serious with the question, more making fun of the whole Lt salutibg Lt/ pfc parade rest for Spc discussions
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SSG Tim Everett
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I abstain from voting. I know what the reg says... but each unit is like its own microcosm. In some units, a SPC is just a troop that gets to be the not-NCOIC of a BS detail. In other units, a SPC is often times a team leader and many of them are just waiting on points in order to get promoted. I've been in units where you at least stood at ease for talking to anyone of a higher rank, and I've been in units where half the time when an officer wasn't around, Sergeants said "call me Joe".

I'm sure you've all seen (or been) that soldier that shows up to a unit and the guys who've been there for a while think "man this guy's a real hard-ass" because that person is adhering to standards that were stricter in another unit. My approach on showing up to a new unit has always been "Remember your bearing and when in doubt, stick to the reg. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut and try to blend in. Do what everyone else is doing."
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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SSG Tim Everett fair enough. In my personal experience, it was a SPC who tried to tell me that it was in the Reg. that I HAD to do it. He lied. And could have even been mislead himself at one point. I think the important part of this discussion is that Soldiers should read regulations and doctrine. It is a great way to develop professionally.
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SSG Tim Everett
SSG Tim Everett
>1 y
SFC (Join to see) Absolutely not disputing that -- the regs are there for people to know, not just fall back on if they step out of line. In particular, SPCs should be "strongly encouraged" to know the regs if they want to put on stripes that number more than one.

As far as the SPC lying to you, I'm not sure how I would handle that. I was a pretty mouthy junior enlisted, so I probably can't be relied upon to properly ret-con an advice session.
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PO1 Donald Hammond
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OMG! Sounds like a bunch of horse hooey to me. I did my time in the Navy and got to be a very senior E6 before calling it quits. It sucks when you stand there in your dress blues and look down the line and see that besides the Master Chief of the Command and the Senior Chief, you are the only one with gold on your sleeve. Means all those Chiefs had less time in the Navy then I did. As we used to say "I have skivvies that have been in the Navy longer than you".

Ooops The old sailor with the sea stories is emerging. I never stood at parade rest for anybody lower than an officer unless we were in a formation and were called to attention or some such by at least a Chief.

I also rarely got on a junior person's case for slouching around. Unless that was the problem. And yet somehow, as the senior E6 on board, I was getting stuff done and getting the lazy ass other E6s in line. "Hey, buddy, I know a GREAT bilge that needs scrubbing with a toothbrush" :D

So I don't think enlisted stand at parade rest while talking to a senior enlisted. Gawd the power trips are too big already. Of course on a submarine it was very much "I know where you sleep" kind of atmosphere.

Okay, no sailor goes without a sea story. One day an E-2 was having a really shitty day. He was mess cranking (working in the galley as a slave) and the idiot senior cook was just on his case. I went in to just get a cup of bug juice and he started yelling at me about making a mess. (not) I just stood there and let him rant and rave. When he took a breath I asked "You feel better now?" I then had him continue with his duties with just the smallest discussion of respect for senior petty officers. Then a chief pulls me into the goat locker (Chief's lounge). He told me I would never make chief if I didn't yell and scream at people. Wow. Told him if he was an example of being a chief I didn't want to be one. At that time I was more qualified than him, had 2 more years in than him, and my division of Electricians was doing far better work than his bunch. I, to this day, don't know why I never made Chief. lol Oh and I had to put him on report for assault not long after that when he jammed a donut in a junior enlisted man's face and I was the duty chief. Broke my heart. But he got off with a slap on the wrist.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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Thanks for sharing! I always love a good Sailor story. You guys have the best.
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SFC Logistics Management Specialist
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This topic is an outstanding take off to other issues we face where military discipline comes into question. It has been my experience that we place too much time focusing on image rather then mission. There is a common saying "Mission First Soldiers Always." I have never supported this concept as it should be, "Soldiers First Above All Else" as it is the Soldiers who do what it takes to accomplish the mission. The military is a corporation consisting of the Army, Marines, Navy, and Air Force. To make a corporation run like a well oiled machine you have to first create a cohesive team that shares the desire of one common goal. The little attention to detail things are what sidelines great things therefore standing at parade rest is first a sign of self discipline and next a demonstration of respect to the senior person. To earn the respect of others you must respect yourself and lead by example which mean you have to earn your subordinates respect, trust, and adoration. By doing things this way you get quality over requlatory back and forth as to who and who not you stand at parade rest for. End the debate as it is quite simple in you stand at attention for officers and parade rest for Enlisted leadership until told otherwise...remember rank does not define us and that leaders are not born. Leadership is learned and it is time for us to support ridding our ranks of toxic leaders!
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PO1 Donald Hammond
PO1 Donald Hammond
>1 y
Interesting. In the Navy we did not ever stand at parade rest for NCOs. Unless ordered to do so because we were mouthing off too much. I never used it. If I needed somebody's full attention they were standing at attention. That was rare tho. Like putting them on report. Also rare. I guess the attitude in the Navy when I was in was there are 2 "classes" of sailor. Rag hats and khakis.

There were a lot of toxic "leaders" in the Navy (I imagine there still are) with no way to really get rid of them. Just wait them out because in the Navy you are going to have a full turnover about every 3 years.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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I recently attended a drill weekend and ran across this situation. Some of my junior enlisted Soldiers were debating back and forth what was right. I informed them what it states in the FM (doctrine) and that we don't have any unit specific policy or directives. My explanation seemed to make sense to these troops, however, I still received some inquisitive looks.
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SGT Military Police
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When i graduated OSUT our DS told us to stand at parade rest for anyone that out ranked us and since i graduated as a E-1 that was everybody for me. That didnt last long as i was quickly told by everyone that i only needed to stand at parade rest for NCO's however, in my last unit if there was a Specialist in a team leader position it was expected and highly enforced that his or her team would stand at parade rest for them. If a NCO saw a private not standing at parade rest for a Specialist team leader it was a bad day for both of them. Anyone else have experience with this and is it right? I would think it is since they are a team leader but for a Specialist non team leader there is no need to stand at parade rest for them.
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SSG Ncoic
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If that specialist is promotable and in a leader position slotted for level 20 than yes. They are writing their counselings. Do you agree?
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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SSG (Join to see) I disagree. If a Soldier is in a 20 level billet, and they are writing counseling statements as an E4, that E4 needs to be lateralled to CPL from SPC if he/she expects Junior Enlisted to stand at Parade Rest. In the absence of written policy and/or directives, the doctrine in FM 7-21.13 should be adhered to. As previously stated by many, SPCs are not NCOs.
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SSG Ncoic
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I also agree with you SFC Kendrick, that why I'm pushing for my SPC P to be lat move to CPL. I have
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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Excellent!
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Melissa Didericksen Didericksen
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Have they gone to pldc?
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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Melissa Didericksen Didericksen I don't see how that would matter. Attending an NCOES school does not make you an NCO. Having been promoted to CPL or SGT makes you an NCO. Doctrine states that Junior Enlisted as well as NCOs come to parade rest when addressing NCOs of senior rank.
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Melissa Didericksen Didericksen
Melissa Didericksen Didericksen
11 y
I know that, that is why I had asked about pldc. I was picturing someone that was already SGT. I can recall when I was in Active Duty how I was even fought over two SPC's as to who had a supervisory role over me when I was newly in. It has been awhile now though I can almost guarantee that they too had me at parade rest at different times.
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LTC Scott O'Neil
LTC Scott O'Neil
11 y
There is no such thing as ranking among those with the same rank. Remember this rule a soldier, NCO and Officer can hold a position 1 rank/grade above and 2 below. Having said that there are exceptions, I have seen an SSG be a Platoon Leader when there were no Offices present within the platoon.

Now if there were 3 SSGs in a Tank Platoon each would be a Tank Commander but the senior SSG could be the Platoon Sergeant and the position provides a senior stature and thus privilege and responsibility of the position yet I have seen a Junior SSGs be a platoon Sergeant in the same situation. If the Junior SSG was better qualified for the job he would be made the Platoon Sergeant and have the privilege and responsibility of the position. This is usually a Commander's Call.
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SFC David Bogue
SFC David Bogue
11 y
Sir, I agree, I have seen the same situation, but unless things have changed, there may not be ranking among them, but they could find themselves be rated by equal rank because of position. However, I do not believe that parade rest would be an issue among these NCOs; not even expected. Maybe things have changed. I have not written an NCOER in 14 years, but I was a Platoon Sergeant/Bn FSNCO as a SSG and I rated other SSGs in our platoon.
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SSG Icu Nurse
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If a specialist want someone to stand at parade rest for him he needs to take the responsibilities of a corporal.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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It is not as simple as taking the responsibilities of a CPL. He/She need to BE a CPL.
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SSG Ncoic
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Like I commented above, SPC (P) in a leadership position level 20 then yes since they are writing their counselings. I agree it is not just the responsibilities of being just a corporal you must BE, DO and KNOW as a corporal and separate yourself from the junior enlistees....
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SPC Joseph Walker
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There is absolutely no reason what so ever that should make a PFC stand at parade rest for a SPC. They are both automatic ranks, and as such are not required to be earned, other than by not being a PoS and having the time in. I had this conversation with a SPC who was waived into E-4, and as such, if you are not an NCO you do not have the authority nor the right to try to lock up people who are beneath you.

I really hope that this question was just a general question and not spurred on by witnessing it.
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Cpl Matthew Wall
Cpl Matthew Wall
11 y
If he was a team leader why shouldn't the PFC stand at parade rest?
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SPC Joseph Walker
SPC Joseph Walker
11 y
Obviously it would be different in your case as a corporal is a NCO. But what you are suggesting would mean that if the Company CBRN NCO is a SPC, then in theory even other SPC would have to stand at parade rest.

Furthermore, I would say that the ranks E-1 - E-4 are a bonding time for members of the lower ranks, as well as a time for them to build a morale and camaraderie with each other. Hence leading that when the SPC is promoted either laterally or upwards they have earned the respect of their subordinates rather than forced them to respect them.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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SPC Joseph Walker , I like what you said there "bonding time for members of the [JUNIOR] ranks, as well as a time for them to build a morale and camaraderie with each other. This is a vital time for them as after as little as 2 years, many of them will be leading Soldiers as NCOs themselves. Learning how to work as a unit is an important part of that.
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SPC Stephen Bobchin
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All in all, I feel it depends on the position the SPC is in. As a general rule, I feel that no, PFCs should not be at parade rest for SPCs. However, if that SPC is in a leadership position, and is trying to get a military related point across (generally in correcting said PFC) then he should have every right to have them go to parade rest.

In regards to CPL, most units as I've seen do not utilize the CPL rank, and will in fact strip a CPL of his rank upon PCS. Those few units that do utilize it tend to only give CPL rank to someone who is promotable and simply waiting for E5 points instead of basing the decision on whether or not they are in a leadership position.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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SPC Stephen Bobchin while I understand what you mean about correcting a PFC, I still say that a SPC has no grounds or authorization to require another Junior Enlisted member stand at Parade Rest. The only exception to this would be a command policy or directive that differs from the doctrine.
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SGT Squad Leader
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I believe they should stand at parade rest simply for the discipline that we seem to lack(atleast in the guard.) I constantly see soldiers not saluting officers and talking to NCO'S they have never met before like it don't matter, if the discipline starts in lower ranks we will have less issues in the future with all our soldiers, just my opinion though.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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SGT (Join to see) , I understand what you mean about the Soldiers not saluting or talking to NCOs as if standing at Parade Rest doesn't matter. The First thing I would ask you is this: When you see it, do you correct the Junior Enlisted member or do you create a new standard by allowing it to continue?
As an NCO it is your responsibility to enforce all standards. That includes instances of Junior Enlisted not rendering proper customs and courtesies to NCOs and Officers.
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SGT Squad Leader
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unfortunately I am new to the NCO corps, and new to the battery I am in as well, it was my first drill with them last month and they all started telling me "were old school here, we only do that when they are in trouble" so I am actually at a loss and would really appreciate any suggestions all would have t offer. .
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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SGT (Join to see) First: Welcome to the Corps. Never stop growing as a professional and you will experience success. You grow by learning. You succeed by overcoming obstacles such as the one you just mentioned.

"were old school here, we only do that when they are in trouble" is a troubling and counter-intuitive statement. To me if they are indeed "old-school" then they should be adhering to the Standards and Doctrine as outlined in many a FM and AR.

So this is what I offer to you, as a new E5, teach your troops what the standard is. Show them what right looks like and where they can find the standard. Tell them what you expect from each of them, performance, uniform appearance, APFT, etc. We call this an initial counseling. You use the initial counseling for expectation management. This will set the tone moving forward for your troops.

As a new NCO you must realize and exercise your authority to make on-the-spot corrections. If you see something that is sub-standard, you are required to make that correction. Otherwise, you just create a new standard. If you receive issue for making the correction, say your peace and then take the issue to the next NCO in the support channel. This is important: ALWAYS attempt to correct deficiencies at the lowest level. Repeat this process as necessary.

Lastly, good luck and God speed.
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SPC Infantryman
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If the SPC is in a team leader spot yes the PFC should go to paraid rest when talking to him.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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SPC (Join to see) , could you elaborate on other exceptions? I disagree with your statement as it is contrary to the doctrine outlined in the FM. If a unit policy or directive from the unit commander said otherwise, I would always defer to the doctrine. Which in this case says that Junior Enlisted stand at parade rest for NCOs. SPCs are not NCOs.
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SFC Michael Hanke
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Absolutely not, being an NCO is an honor, privilege, as well as years of hard work and selfless service. The rank of Specialist does not authorize the benefits of an NCO or the responsibility level. The full bird private should be a tool to weed out those that do not meet the standards of a non commissioned officer and clear a path for those that do.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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SFC Michael Hanke You are right that becoming an NCO is an honor and privilege. I disagree with the rank of SPC "or full bird private" be used as a tool to weed out those that do not meet the standards. Realistically, that needs to be done much sooner. Units would be better served if they didn't automatically advance every PVT to PV2 and PV2 to PFC etc.. solely because they are eligible. An objective board process should be used to determine whether those ranks are deserved based on merit. For a commander to just sign the advancement roster promoting those young troops is not good form.
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Cpl Peter Martuneac
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Edited 11 y ago
Technically, only SNCO's rate parade rest when being spoken to, as explicitly outlined in the MCO on customs and courtesies. But if you're a junior Marine addressing any higher ranking Marine or a senior Lance Corporal with far more experience, you should stand at parade rest out of respect.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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I understand your point of view. But as a Soldier and not a Marine as yourself, the MCO does not apply to me or the situation that I brought up.

I do find it interesting that only Senior NCOs rate parade rest when spoken to as you put it. I suppose it has worked that way for the Corps for a long time so why change it now.
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Cpl Peter Martuneac
Cpl Peter Martuneac
11 y
I understand the Army is different, I was just stating how it is in the Marines for comparison. And it's one of those things where yes, technically you don't have to stand at parade rest for an NCO, but almost nobody would back you up if you chose not to and tried to say your actions were okay. It's kind of an unwritten rule, akin to how the MCO only requires you to get a haircut every two weeks but everywhere you go, you're probably gonna have to get one every week.
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LTC Mark Gavula
LTC Mark Gavula
11 y
It is necessary for SPC and below to stand at parade rest when addressing a Non-Commissioned Officer (SGT and above), however, it is situation dependent and the PSG is responsible to coach teach and mentor his/her Soldiers on how to use the authority given to non-commissioned officers.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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11 y
@LTC Mark Gavula, that responsibility lies with senior enlisted at every level. And it should never stop.
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