Posted on Sep 18, 2014
Should PFCs stand at "Parade Rest" for a SPC?
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We had Lieutenants saluting each other, now I ask this: Should an E-3 stand at the position of parade rest for an E4 Specialist (not a corporal)?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 180
I was appointed the Barracks Sargent at Fort Been Harrison Indianapolis IN by the Command Sargent Major for 6 Months and regardless of rank (there were E5s and E6s whom upon my inspection of the quarters would address me in parade rest when in the Barracks. However, upon leaving the building the roles reverse. That was 1983. I think it would depend non the Command structure and duties of the Specialist.
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Book answer, no s/he is not an NCO it does not apply.
I guess I can see how this might be a little MOS dependent EOD I would never see this being a thing. By the time we get out of AIT we are 6 months from SPC. I could see how this might be more combat arms related as they have different roles they fill that EOD does not have, but still not an NCO not really a thing.
I guess I can see how this might be a little MOS dependent EOD I would never see this being a thing. By the time we get out of AIT we are 6 months from SPC. I could see how this might be more combat arms related as they have different roles they fill that EOD does not have, but still not an NCO not really a thing.
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If you are a team leader as a E4 regardless of SPC or CPL you are held responsible for close below you. As a SPC I filled positions of Sgt and SSgt. I tried to keep the atmosphere relaxed but clearly disciplined. I only ever had one issue with a E3 who did not understand how the military works or at least did. As he was disputing my authority to give him direction or 1sgt happened by.
Told PFC X. That anytime he thought I was being out of line or behind my authority in what I told him to do he should come see him. Kid was happy as a pig in mud, until 1Sgt added but you Damn well better have finished the task Specialist Henriksen gave you before you step through my door.
Told PFC X. That anytime he thought I was being out of line or behind my authority in what I told him to do he should come see him. Kid was happy as a pig in mud, until 1Sgt added but you Damn well better have finished the task Specialist Henriksen gave you before you step through my door.
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Interesting...Marine Corps Promotion Warrant reads : "I do strictly direct and require all personnel of lesser grade to render obedience to appropriate orders". Good subject to provoke thoughts and comments with regards to discipline expected and demanded at our lower ranks.
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Yes, it's simply a show of respect, which is important and part of the developmental process of Soldiering.
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My unit has us do it if they are in a team leader position. But not otherwise
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Correction required, in the sentence of my post auto correct decided I didn't know what a Pfc was and corrected to Pic instead, dang thing.
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I meant to vote pump your breaks high-speed. Last I checked AR 600-8 listed Advancement to Specialist not promotion. As a courtesy to higher rank it's respectful and shows maturity as well as honor for th e uniform, but not required. It's not the Marines. That would be no different than a Pic insisting that a Pv2 stand at parade rest. However, certain duty possisions rate a higher level of respect. Squadleader, section supervisor etc. Situational awareness. Don't be the Pfc that is getting counseled for failure to fallow instructions and a Staff Nco walks by while your arguing with that Spc knowing you are 8up and that Sgt knows you as such. Just stand by, they got something for you to help you figure it out.
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It is a unit by unit issue. In some units it is required, but in others it is only required when speaking to PLT SGT or above.
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It's good practice to show that respect, but if said Specialist is putting emphasis on it, then he/she needs to slow their roll. Maybe if he/she is in charge of a detail and is giving specific instructions, maybe. But day to day convo and interaction, no way.
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My first active duty unit's company commander thought he had discipline issues. He directed that if we interacted with anyone above our pay grade it was at parade rest. Kinda felt somewhat demeaning to stand at that position while talking to a PV2. Glad that foolishness only lasted about a week.
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Privates in basic training and AIT get more leadership training than E2-E4 at the unit level and that is a mistake in coddling troops. Get rid of SPC and make it CPL and start training troops to be leaders instead of followers so they are prepared when the time comes. I have always found it odd that you can take a SPC send them to a board and a school for a month and they are supposed to be ready for SGT when they have never had any real leadership responsibility before this. The Marines have Lance Corporal and Corporals out of necessity because they have a smaller force and need people to step up early. If the Army enacted their stance they would weed out people earlier and not wait until they are NCOs to find them lacking. There would be a more professional force if we changed our thinking. The forces are shrinking so it is time to get rid of an old system that does not reflect the intelligence of today's troops. They can do more than what they are asked to do or given responsibility to do, we expect them to perform in war Train for that expectation in peace instead of spending all week in motor pools, going through the motions in SGTs time, or doing PowerPoint slide field exercises and train the way we should. We won't have this debate and E4s will all be deserving of CPL if the system changes or they can be sent home.
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I was in a unit once that morale and discipline was low. The CO and 1Sgt mandated that you stand at parade rest when speaking to higher ranking folks.E1s stoops at parade rest for E2s and forward. Took about a week to make a point. Depends on the situation.
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If that SPC is holding the position of an NCO then yes. I was smoked as a PFC team leader for no making my SPC stand at parade rest for me.
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If he/she was doing it to correct the customs and courtesy's of the Privates (if they were deficient), then I would say sure. That doesn't sound like the case here.
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I'd like to know this as well. Last drill a E5 yelled at me saying "why aren't you going to parade rest when speaking to Jacobs!" Jacobs was a E4. I was never told to do this for E4s and below. He made me feel like a shit bag solider for not knowing this. But when I asked my peers E4s and below all off them said we do t go to parade rests for E4s. So you can see I am abit tied here. Who was in the wrong? Was the sergeant just being an ass messing with me?
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MAJ (Join to see)
Generally speaking, you go to parade rest for an NCO. So if the E4 is a CPL, then you should go to parade rest. If they are a SPC, then no.
That being said, it's a good idea to go to parade rest when speaking to your direct line supervisor, so if your squad leader (for example) is a SPC, I would go to parade rest even though they aren't an NCO, out of respect.
That being said, it's a good idea to go to parade rest when speaking to your direct line supervisor, so if your squad leader (for example) is a SPC, I would go to parade rest even though they aren't an NCO, out of respect.
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SPC Matthew Birkinbine
Well put, sir. That's kind of the direction I was going with my comment too. It's good for GP to do it simply to get in, and stay in, the habit of it.
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SPC Matthew Birkinbine
While some leaders are practical jokers, some also are of the mindset that if you don't show junior personnel who are senior to you the respect you would show an NCO, you may not have the military bearing to be professional at all times, even toward NCOs. I've found it best to acknowledge and accept the NCO's instruction and get your professional bearing back in line. Let that specialist get into the habit of telling you to relax, because at the same time, it's grooming him/her to become a good NCO too.
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Power hungry morons... cant wait to see how they act when they get promoted!!! They will not be very liked and probably wont make it far in the military.
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Part of me says no, and part of me says yes.
In all honesty, a SPC does outrank a PFC, and for that there should be a level of respect shown towards the SPC. But at the same time a SPC is a junior enlisted, so part of me thinks it shouldn't matter. When I was in the service as a SPC, I had a few privates under me that would stand at parade rest without me ever asking them to, and it was a bit confusing but I never corrected them.
When I was a private at Fort Bliss, I was taught that if someone outranks you, give them respect. The rank structure is there for a reason, whether you like it or not, so when I was a private I would stand at parade rest for everyone who outranked me.
In all honesty, a SPC does outrank a PFC, and for that there should be a level of respect shown towards the SPC. But at the same time a SPC is a junior enlisted, so part of me thinks it shouldn't matter. When I was in the service as a SPC, I had a few privates under me that would stand at parade rest without me ever asking them to, and it was a bit confusing but I never corrected them.
When I was a private at Fort Bliss, I was taught that if someone outranks you, give them respect. The rank structure is there for a reason, whether you like it or not, so when I was a private I would stand at parade rest for everyone who outranked me.
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SSG (Join to see)
A PV2 outranks a PV1. A PFC outranks a PV2. A SPC outranks a PFC. If that SPC is abusing his rank/making everyone lower rank do his work, it's their NCO's duty to correct the SPC; likewise, it's the NCO's responsibility to reinforce the rank structure and ensure the privates are giving the SPC their due respect.
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I actually asked some Specialists that I had on Staff Duty with me the other day. Now I am on Staff Duty today and still milling this question. The one thought that they brought up was the Spec4 rank being where they would have to go to Parade rest for them. The answer before that was well I would expect them to go to Parade rest for me, I am a team leader. My question to him was then, what if I brought you a brand new kid just off the plane that didn't know you from Adam and therefore didn't KNOW that you were a team leader? How would he KNOW he was supposed to go to parade rest for you? What about the SPC standing next to you that was not a team leader? Then the thought of SPC4 came up again and that is the only other thing that made sense.
Here is why I am torn. I have fought the battle in the MUB and in the 1SG office where I have circled NO to that PFC making SPC. The following month, I am not at the MUB or the meeting where the White Book is covered and suddenly for some reason this dude is circled YES and I have a SPC that does not in anyway deserve to be a PFC much LESS a SPC. So I am supposed to have PFCs stand at parade rest for this guy that I would NEVER put in charge of latrine detail much less anything dealing with a Soldiers well being just because they have a Shield and a bird on it? It is a tough call on my part. I don't know that I would agree with it honestly. I RECEIVED a SPC from another post, FLAGED him shortly after for being ABCP failure, but even BEFORE then I fired him for being an incompetent leader. I DID try though, and he was not up to it and I am not going to have an incompetent person leading Soldiers under me. Those guys standing at Parade Rest, giving them the same respect that they render my NCOs that earned it, I would have to lean towards no personally. If they are made CPL, naturally that is different but as long as it is the shield I have to say no.
Here is why I am torn. I have fought the battle in the MUB and in the 1SG office where I have circled NO to that PFC making SPC. The following month, I am not at the MUB or the meeting where the White Book is covered and suddenly for some reason this dude is circled YES and I have a SPC that does not in anyway deserve to be a PFC much LESS a SPC. So I am supposed to have PFCs stand at parade rest for this guy that I would NEVER put in charge of latrine detail much less anything dealing with a Soldiers well being just because they have a Shield and a bird on it? It is a tough call on my part. I don't know that I would agree with it honestly. I RECEIVED a SPC from another post, FLAGED him shortly after for being ABCP failure, but even BEFORE then I fired him for being an incompetent leader. I DID try though, and he was not up to it and I am not going to have an incompetent person leading Soldiers under me. Those guys standing at Parade Rest, giving them the same respect that they render my NCOs that earned it, I would have to lean towards no personally. If they are made CPL, naturally that is different but as long as it is the shield I have to say no.
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