Posted on Sep 18, 2014
Should PFCs stand at "Parade Rest" for a SPC?
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We had Lieutenants saluting each other, now I ask this: Should an E-3 stand at the position of parade rest for an E4 Specialist (not a corporal)?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 180
While the corporal is a NCO rank, and should receive the courtesies as such, the specialist is still junior enlisted. The separation is there for a reason.
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As a SPC I have not earned the right for a soldier to stand at parade rest for me. I have seen in a line unit at fort wainwright that e-3s have to stand at parade rest for e4s and that's why a PFC did for me after I asked him why he was doing it.
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SFC (Join to see)
A Better question would be why is a junior company grade officer dismissing the question as "dumb" when there is plenty of commentary in this thread that discusses the practice of junior enlisted standing at parade rest for each other especially among the combat arms? And doing so without offering any original thought/discussion on the point other than a "down" vote? I respect your position to say that it is a dumb question. However, does that mean that you also think that the aforementioned practice is dumb? Please elaborate CPT (Join to see) .
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CPT (Join to see)
You are correct, I commented in hast and inappropriately; I apologize. That being said; there is no way a SPC should demand a fellow junior soldier to stand at Parade rest for him. He has the same amount of claim to being saluted, zilch. The only grey line is if he is in a NCO slot/job. In a similar way we'll call a SFC a 1SG if he is the Company 1SG.
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In all technicalities, a specialist is not an nco, they're still junior enlisted.
Thus I see no reason to stand at parade rest.
Thus I see no reason to stand at parade rest.
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The rank system out there is for the reason. And we stick to the Army Values. Some people realize that, some don't. Respect the senior in rank than you is one perfect example. That's what makes us professionals. By regulation, E4 is not an NCO and E3 and below don't have to snap in parade rest in front of him. Now, good E4 should couch and remind any E3 and below to do that in front of the NCO. And when time comes, when that E3 will become one, he will be expecting the same treatment of professionalism from lower enlisted.
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I would say that for sure you want to respect soldiers who out rank yourself. That said, you also need to respect the soldiers of less rank than yourself. Parade rest is a sign of respect. I don't think it should be expected of a pfc to go to parade rest for a specialist, but at the same time if you are a pfc getting instructions/orders/advise from specialist you would go to parade rest to show that you are paying attention and giving a fellow soldier the respect he/she deserves.
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There is no regulatory requirement to do so, so no. However, as a PSG I have had Soldiers subordinate to their SPC team leader stand at parade rest when addressing them in an effort to differentiate the position from their perceived peer relationship as junior enlisted service members. Is it the right thing? Not really. The correct answer in that scenario is to laterally promote the E-4 team leader to Corporal which is the purpose of that rank in my opinion. What is really inspiring though, is to see a subordinate Soldier stand at parade rest for his Team Leader not because he was ever told to do so, but out of earned respect of the junior leader in that position. I believe in the requirement to exercise courtesy by standing at parade rest as a measure of discipline, but I do think it is over-emphasized sometimes. As I have been guilty of making subordinate Soldiers stand at parade rest for their SPC superior, I have often been guilty of telling Soldiers subordinate to me to stop sweating the craziness and just communicate the message so we can get to work.
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Without pause, YES!
What did SSG McCulley just say?
There are criteria that must be met: A> Said SPC must be holding an NCO coded position on the MTO&E. (My preferred example is an SPC holding a teamleader billet) B> Said SPC must be assigned Soldiers that s/he counsels and are also coded on said MTO&E under previously mentioned NCO position. C> ONLY THOSE SOLDIERS SHOULD DO IT! It shouldn't be a thing, but the troop is obviously a NCO Trainee who's rank just hasn't caught up. Their command would not entrust the responsibility of troops upon them *we hope*.
The more dangerous thing, in my opinion, is comfortability and the perception of those troops seeing that future NCO as Jr Enlisted. I made a big boy decision my last promotion and since my DOR was during PCS leave I had one of my dad's old Vietnam war buds, a retired CSM, promote me. He even got a hair cut.. pretty cool. I showed up to my next assignment (where a vast majority of the instructors are E6s) as a SSG and was always perceived as such. I've seen others who promoted soon after arriving where I observed 'rank bias' continue. Because I made a decision I didn't have to deal with it. There was a reason we used to move folks when they got promoted. IDK about you but, I love it when my juniors get promoted.. one less social barrier.. one step closer to peerhood (that is where we hide the beer) .
What did SSG McCulley just say?
There are criteria that must be met: A> Said SPC must be holding an NCO coded position on the MTO&E. (My preferred example is an SPC holding a teamleader billet) B> Said SPC must be assigned Soldiers that s/he counsels and are also coded on said MTO&E under previously mentioned NCO position. C> ONLY THOSE SOLDIERS SHOULD DO IT! It shouldn't be a thing, but the troop is obviously a NCO Trainee who's rank just hasn't caught up. Their command would not entrust the responsibility of troops upon them *we hope*.
The more dangerous thing, in my opinion, is comfortability and the perception of those troops seeing that future NCO as Jr Enlisted. I made a big boy decision my last promotion and since my DOR was during PCS leave I had one of my dad's old Vietnam war buds, a retired CSM, promote me. He even got a hair cut.. pretty cool. I showed up to my next assignment (where a vast majority of the instructors are E6s) as a SSG and was always perceived as such. I've seen others who promoted soon after arriving where I observed 'rank bias' continue. Because I made a decision I didn't have to deal with it. There was a reason we used to move folks when they got promoted. IDK about you but, I love it when my juniors get promoted.. one less social barrier.. one step closer to peerhood (that is where we hide the beer) .
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I'll start by saying that I have been both, SPC and CPL. Went to PLDC as a SPC, was promoted to CPL, CPLs were later phased out for a while and I found myself wearing SPC rank, once again. That said, as I saw it, as a SPC, I was not an NC. I was an experienced PFC, an equal. As a CPL, I felt like I was barely a Junior NC and never thought a PV1, PVT, PFC or a SPC should stand at Parade at Parade Rest for me. I suppose I could have done it as an E-4 CPL, but wouldn't have even entertained such an absurd thought while wearing E-4 SPC rank. This clown must be power hungry. As for the Lieutenants saluting one another, are they 2LTs saluting 1LTs? That is understandable. Two LTs of equal rank is pretty dumb.
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COL Thom Brooks
Lieutenants, for purposes of saluting are considered equal, whether they are 2LT or 1LT. You are absolutely correct in your interpretation of your own past situations. BLUF: NCO's deserve the courtesy required of their junior Soldiers. A specialist is the most senior non NCO enlisted rank, no more, no less. The SPC is not an NCO.
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According to the reg, you do not have to go to parade rest. If you are in a formal formation, you will come and go from the position of parade rest! The specialist could be in an acting NCO slot and the highest rank in the formation. Just use your commen sense with this.
When I first came in the Army, we we trained to go to parade rest to any rank above tour own!
When I first came in the Army, we we trained to go to parade rest to any rank above tour own!
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The practice of doing so is, in my opinion, a sign of respect, and if those junior to me do so, I appreciate that respect. I find myself, often, standing at parade rest simply to show the person speaking to me that s/he has my undivided attention. I would never require it, but I recommend, like I do myself, that those juniors who don't get into the habit of doing so, start because it fosters the discipline of naturally and automatically doing it for NCOs. Too many times, I've had to step up and correct a PV2 or PFC for not automatically going to parade rest for our NCOs. This discipline should've been drilled in Basic, and enforced in AIT. It makes our Army look like the professional force it is supposed to be.
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First let's put on the record that no one is below you because you outrank them. They are junior to you. As for juniors standing at parade rest for a SPC its not just black and white. If a specialist has been entrusted to a leadership position such as team leader or squad leader then I say yes. This is where position overs ones rank. Specialist is easy to obtain, getting put in a leadership position isn't quite as easy. You have to express you authority in that position and that requires respect and discipline from your subordinates. This doesn't justify getting a big head about it at all. I also agree that if there is a lack of discipline in your ranks an NCO can make the call that all soldiers will stand at the position of parade rest while addressing anyone their senior. Example, pv1 speaking to pv2. This is to express the importance of customs and courtesies and to drive the point home. The army has gotten to lax over the years and it's just finally starting to get back to old school tradition. It's something we've needed back for a long time
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Been there, done that. My answer: No, no, no and hell no.
When I was a Specialist we had a Platoon Sergeant (may have originated with the 1SG, I'm not sure) who wanted the Privates to stand at parade rest for us "Sham Shields"--most team leaders were Specialists, so that's my theory as to why he wanted to do this--and the idea was almost universally hated. Privates thought it was dumb, Specialists felt it was outright wrong (WE'RE NOT NCOs!), but we played the game when higher links in the chain-of-command were around; but ONLY when they were around.
Funny thing, as I think about this, I believe I was even more against this back then as a Specialist as I am now as an NCO.
When I was a Specialist we had a Platoon Sergeant (may have originated with the 1SG, I'm not sure) who wanted the Privates to stand at parade rest for us "Sham Shields"--most team leaders were Specialists, so that's my theory as to why he wanted to do this--and the idea was almost universally hated. Privates thought it was dumb, Specialists felt it was outright wrong (WE'RE NOT NCOs!), but we played the game when higher links in the chain-of-command were around; but ONLY when they were around.
Funny thing, as I think about this, I believe I was even more against this back then as a Specialist as I am now as an NCO.
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LTs saluting each other? The only time I heard of that was at Maxwell AFB. I was there for a Lt PME course they just started in '99, a fellow 2Lt (Ryan) from my ROTC Detachment was there too. Well, Ryan was walking down the street when he passed a 1Lt OTS Flight/CC marching his OTs down the road. Ryan said something to the effect of "Hey, what's up?" The 1Lt halted the flight, ripped into Ryan (who, BTW, was a prior service E-5) about customs and courtesies. Ryan response was "You're a Lt, so am I. I don't salute LTs at my base, and I'm sure as hell not going to here!" At which point, Ryan walked away. End of story? NOOOOOO! 1Lt Stickuphisbutt complained, and by the end of the duty day, word came down that all 2Lts would salute all 1Lts...something all the 1Lts insisted not happen. Long story short, the order came down, was ignored, and we didn't hear anymore of it in our last couple weeks there.
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COL Thom Brooks
LOL. Sometimes one's sense of importance results in bad eyesight when reading regulations. That really got a laugh out of me. Thanks!
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The language is clear and unambiguous, Specialists are not NCOs thus there is no requirement for them to do so.
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Hell to the No! It only takes two years to become a SPC, its also entry level as well...
I once had a SPC team leader that I stood at parade rest for even when it wasn't needed because he was respectful in every way, smart and humane, he did not have to give an order twice or even have to think about it. I got sh1t done because of respect. He's now a SGT.
And there was THAT SPC, chubby, been in a little over 5 years... not going into any further details but hell, me and my battles were always trying to dodge this guy, taking our time with the PMCS, wont even look back. when he did got us to do something... you'd bet that was a long dragging day. I believe he's now separated when I PCS.
-When it comes to SPC and Privates, it's all on respect. You give respect, you get respect.
I once had a SPC team leader that I stood at parade rest for even when it wasn't needed because he was respectful in every way, smart and humane, he did not have to give an order twice or even have to think about it. I got sh1t done because of respect. He's now a SGT.
And there was THAT SPC, chubby, been in a little over 5 years... not going into any further details but hell, me and my battles were always trying to dodge this guy, taking our time with the PMCS, wont even look back. when he did got us to do something... you'd bet that was a long dragging day. I believe he's now separated when I PCS.
-When it comes to SPC and Privates, it's all on respect. You give respect, you get respect.
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SFC (Join to see) so, I'm in my arms room and an SPC comes looking for a SGT, I'm behind the cage so he can't see my rank. As he is talking, I'm getting closer to him and he stand at Parade Rest, I told him, dude! you outrank me! And he answered me, oh! I thought you were a NCO, you are just old. #TrueStory He saw the future in me...
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I have had privates stand at parade rest, but only if the specialist was the privates' team leader. He was there to supervise them, not be their friend. There has to be a separation. Having to stand at parade rest helped the Soldiers understand that Specialist Snuffy was not one of them and they had to treat him differently.
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I once had a Cpt, (Ex-Enlisted) demand salutes while in field.... It's ridiculous and so is being at parade rest for a SP4, A Cpl, yes.
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