Should PFCs stand at "Parade Rest" for a SPC?

CW5 Scott Montgomery Chief what do you feel a Specialists place is in our rank structure Sir? Myself personally call the Specialist the Crutch grade of rank AKA Career Private as they are not NCO's but at the same token are seasoned Soldiers. By eliminating this grade of rank and making the Corporals we now have a large pool of Junior NCO's that we force to take on the duties and responsibilities respective to being an NCO by holding them accountable in accordance our E-4's now realizing they are not welfare recipients. As for customs and courtesies such as attention and parade rest regardless it is a team of well disciplined Soldiers who accomplish the Army mission therefore a subordinate regardless of rank should stand at either position as a sign of self discipline and respect for service even if it is a Private that is in charge.

Absolutely right, PFC

Yes 1SG Michael Blount it should most definitely read "brakes". After the initial post last summer, I tried to edit but could not. You are the first to mention the usage error. I wonder what that says to the RP community at large about the their ability to pay attention to detail.

@sfc Jason kendrick - I woodnt wory about it. I believe the general rule in military correspondence is easily understood in a single rapid reading. Spellin, grammar and punctuation are nice, but not always required

Will the douche-baggery ever end sir?

I have been in a few units where it was unit policy for privates (PVT-PFC) to stand at parade rest for Specialists. It always made me feel uneasy when it was done for me because I was not an NCO and I almost always immediately told them to relax.
I guess it would be best to say that it is command discretion whether or not they want that to happen or not.

Agreed. I'll put it this way. I would support the SPC that decided to do that because he/she wouldn't be wrong.

you wouldn't be wrong.

I have to agree with SPC Jones. In a situation where a SPC is a Team Leader, he/she is in that position 99.9% of the time because he/she has shown that they are ready to take that next step. "Friends/buddies" go by the wayside and they are now a Leader who has to make those hard decisions.

Disagree with this completely. That is why we have the rank of CPL. If you are not an NCO, you are not entitled to those regulatory expectations. At the end of the day, the SPC will not be writing an NCOER, and though he/she is the ranking Soldier, he/she is NOT an NCO. I am quite surprised this is still in discussion, but intrigued at some of the responses.

A SPC is not a CPL. They may have the same pay grade, but a CPL is an NCO, SPC is not. There's no argument to be said. That's how it is.

Um. That's exactly what I said.

So thanks, I guess?

Lt Col (Join to see) , it is a custom/courtesy of the Army. And we are big on customs! Well... sometimes. Ha!

SFC (Join to see) - It is the Air Force after all. Their Customs and Courtesies are understood by all other branches to be less formal. ;)

It would seem to me that there is a reason the Army has kept its E4-SPC rank, meaning there is a reason they DO NOT want these people to be NCOs. If they did, they could all just become Corporals. I will interject that there are some folks out there (not me) who dream of joining all the branches and scaling the rank system such that an individual HAS to reenlist at least once in order to pin on E5, making them an NCO. The Air Force has already done this by the E4 Senior Airman rank which is NOT an NCO. I understand these same people would also like to make E7 the "enlisted rank locking you into your 20-yr retirement option" (yes I know there are exceptions and thats another topic). However there are reasons the branches are different in that manner. In the Corps, those ranks are E4 and E6, scaled 1 down from E5 and E7. I suppose one could argue that its simply a matter of "chiefs and indians balancing".

Personally I believe that in general, the E4, whether NCO or not, who actually demands this of subordinates, is probably some asshat who fails to EARN their respect. If you can earn it, you never have to ask for it or bark orders about it. And those subordinates would do those things automatically.

Id like to add that I have heard that the Army only retains the E4-Corporal rank because there are a few Unlucky folks who the Army just wants to be able to park on more weekend Barracks Duties. In some manner of speaking, it seems to some folks that being the SPC with less staffing-related responsibility for the same pay is a better option...and I'm fine with that, however I don't believe that if you cheese out on those NCO-esque responsibilities, that you should be demanding anything of this nature from others. That said, I do admit that because Im not an Army person, I dont know all of the little details surrounding the decisions of Which E3s become SPCs and which become CPLs.

I mostly agree with Cpl Matthew Wall about "respect the position not the rank" however I might go a step further and say (when we are talking about the known faces you work with day in and day out) Respect the person underneath that rank and position.

A couple more little tidbits. I have seen some Marine E6 (StaffSgt - who in the Corps were mostly locked into their 20-yr option) become pretty unsat men in terms of their physical fitness, which in an Infantry unit directly and negatively impacts their value to that unit. As an E-whatever, I didnt pop into any particular position for these friggin slimy walruses, nor did they ever expect it, because they likely knew they were those "permanent E6s never going to make E7, and were just "hanging around until their 20yr mark". Some of them might still make decent squad/section leaders, and have some good stuff between their ears on a battlefield scenario...but if they cant even make it to the location physically in a timely manner, then that value is already mostly lost. Additionally there is still a reason that E7s get pulled to fill the Platoon Sgt billets when there are these E6s already in the platoon.

I mention this as an afterthought about "Army Doctrine". The E6s like the one I have in mid here...aren't even maintaining their own duties of the uniform, and therefore I don't need to treat them as I would the Battalion CO. Im sure some of you are reading this and having trouble digesting it, and thats ok....but remember these people weren't the ones "demanding of my popping to parade rest, or Attention", or any of that.

I hear you on that. We had a 1st Sgt come in from MP to run our infantry company. First time we went on a hump he got blisters and got a ride back to the barracks. After that first impression nobody liked or respected him. He was 1st Sgt so we went with it, but inside we knew we couldn't count on him.

Cpl Matthew Wall and Cpl Christopher Bishop, though the rank of Specialist and Corporal (E-4) are the same as E rank, there is a difference. The Specialist rank is used in Combat Service Support Units and the Corporal rank is used in Combat Arms. Here is some insight as well that we use in the Army. In the FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
Now stating that, I just had a habit standing at parade rest with anyone that out ranked me. That's just me of course. But trust me there is a big difference between Specialist and Corporal.

SFC Stanley, I've seen Specialist in the infantry before.

I think the key part to your FM is that "Unless otherwise directed" is a defining factor. If they were directed to then that is in the FM. Regardless of that though, I stated if they are a team leader and not a NCO it doesn't matter. You stand at parade rest.

That has basically been my reply to almost everyone. Well said SFC (Join to see)