Posted on Aug 11, 2017
Should Soldiers be punished for failing the EIB PT test on purpose?
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Expert Infantryman Badge (EIB)
11B: Infantryman
APFT
UCMJ
Punishment
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 58
I think so, if it's a blatant and obvious attempt to fail. The big issue is deciding what type of punishment is legal and appropriate.
When I was a young Lieutenant, I had something similar happen with a handful of my soldiers. They purposely failed out of the EFMB on their very first task so that they could come back home from the testing site. I made them stay out in the field until the end of the week anyways, making them support their colleagues who did actually try to pass everything. Apparently, the testing site saw it as a problem on a larger scale. The following year (and every year after), they didn't tell anyone how they did until the very last day, right before the final road march. Their goal was to make people at least try, considering that they had to stay out there regardless of how they did.
When I was a young Lieutenant, I had something similar happen with a handful of my soldiers. They purposely failed out of the EFMB on their very first task so that they could come back home from the testing site. I made them stay out in the field until the end of the week anyways, making them support their colleagues who did actually try to pass everything. Apparently, the testing site saw it as a problem on a larger scale. The following year (and every year after), they didn't tell anyone how they did until the very last day, right before the final road march. Their goal was to make people at least try, considering that they had to stay out there regardless of how they did.
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MSG (Join to see)
All these "you shouldn't be forced" comments are part of the problem. You shouldn't feel "forced" to be a master of your profession. Furthermore, if you are a leader and think this way shame on you.
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SFC J Fullerton
SPC (Join to see) - Its MOS training. Most of it is soldier common tasks. Since when is training optional in the US Military? If you think training is bullshit, then you have no place in the US Military. Earning the badge is the reward for mastering the skill set. If you signed up for an 11 series MOS, your ass is going to do Infantry training. If you are a combat medic, then your ass does combat medic training. That's what you joined for. In my 26 years, those that had a piss poor attitude toward the EIB were piss poor Soldiers in every other aspect too.
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CPT (Join to see)
It is common for all assigned to participate in the EIB APFT (in fact I can not remember a EIB APFT that was not done as so), if for no other reason its an efficient use of resources to conduct a AR350-1 requirement. As such, failure wither on purpose or of no intention takes care of itself.
Fail an APFT, get flagged, suspend favorable actions from awards to schooling to promotions, placed in special populations PT program, initiate separation of service chapter, counsel and inform of the time line and training program the SM will have to improve and pass the APFT. If the failure was perceived to be unintentional provide maximum assistance in helping the SM achieve their stated goal. If understood to be a intentional failure, provide the assistance and leadership required and or requested, but inform the SM their passing or failing and prep for either is a test in of itself...
I would then direct the LONGEST time allowed under the reg before allowing a retest.. If they pass, fine, perhaps a lesson is learned..if they fail again, so be it, good by.
EDIT ADD: Oh, and that above is not theory ...its a memory.
It is common for all assigned to participate in the EIB APFT (in fact I can not remember a EIB APFT that was not done as so), if for no other reason its an efficient use of resources to conduct a AR350-1 requirement. As such, failure wither on purpose or of no intention takes care of itself.
Fail an APFT, get flagged, suspend favorable actions from awards to schooling to promotions, placed in special populations PT program, initiate separation of service chapter, counsel and inform of the time line and training program the SM will have to improve and pass the APFT. If the failure was perceived to be unintentional provide maximum assistance in helping the SM achieve their stated goal. If understood to be a intentional failure, provide the assistance and leadership required and or requested, but inform the SM their passing or failing and prep for either is a test in of itself...
I would then direct the LONGEST time allowed under the reg before allowing a retest.. If they pass, fine, perhaps a lesson is learned..if they fail again, so be it, good by.
EDIT ADD: Oh, and that above is not theory ...its a memory.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SSG (Join to see) - "SSG Darrell Peters 5 m
If a soldier does not Volunteer for the EIB. he cannot be forced to participate."
No, not even close.
If the training is on the schedule, the SM will be at the appointed place at the appointed time.
Competing for the award of the EIB is voluntary Not the training for it. But Every bit of the prep, the train up and even the testing phase is or can be considered training.....Though i would use non volunteers as support personal after the train up is done, no need to waste resources on them during the testing phase... Someone needs to cut grass, do police call and be on CQ..its not going to be SM competing for the EIB..
Having all unit members TRAIN at the EIB core tasks and prerequisites is just common sense, a good use of resources and a solid commanders decision.
The SM WILL participate in all scheduled training, if they CHOOSE to go though that training and not participate in the testing, thats their choice. But they will be at training, to include the scheduled APFT, or be tasked to support it
If a soldier does not Volunteer for the EIB. he cannot be forced to participate."
No, not even close.
If the training is on the schedule, the SM will be at the appointed place at the appointed time.
Competing for the award of the EIB is voluntary Not the training for it. But Every bit of the prep, the train up and even the testing phase is or can be considered training.....Though i would use non volunteers as support personal after the train up is done, no need to waste resources on them during the testing phase... Someone needs to cut grass, do police call and be on CQ..its not going to be SM competing for the EIB..
Having all unit members TRAIN at the EIB core tasks and prerequisites is just common sense, a good use of resources and a solid commanders decision.
The SM WILL participate in all scheduled training, if they CHOOSE to go though that training and not participate in the testing, thats their choice. But they will be at training, to include the scheduled APFT, or be tasked to support it
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SSG (Join to see)
Yet Competing for the award is not Training. Training for the EIB should take place well in advance of the date of the EIB Test and Evaluation. If the Training Schedule states EIB and it is for the Award of a Badge It is not Training. I sat in on a Court Martial that occurred in 1984 2nd Armor Division FWD for a soldier who deliberately Failed Every Test for the EFMB. The Presiding Judge Ruled that the EFMB is NOT a Training Event but an Evaluation of prior Training. To quote the Judge. "The Command under the guise of mandatory training, purposefully forced participation. We find that is in Violation of the Army Regulation that Govern Participation for the EFMB."
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SGM Erik Marquez
SSG (Join to see) Your still confusing training and testing .. EIB and EFMB training typically goes from many weeks in advance to the day prior to testing. Commonly the train up period will end on a friday, testing begins on the following monday and runs though the duty week.
TESTING is voluntarily, training for that test is not (or may not be, depending on if the command wants to properly use resources or reward mediocrity )
"soldier who deliberately Failed Every Test for the EFMB. "
That has nothing to do with what we are discussing...... in your own words, " soldier who deliberately Failed Every Test for the EFMB. "
The APFT is not done as a TEST, it is a prerequisite to be eligible for the test.
There is ZERO difference in application of the APFT for annual record APFT or EIB prequisist.
NOW, in 1984, the APFT WAS part of the EIB test not a prereq... so in 1984 you may have had a point..but this is not 1984, and we are not discussing TESTING.
TESTING is voluntarily, training for that test is not (or may not be, depending on if the command wants to properly use resources or reward mediocrity )
"soldier who deliberately Failed Every Test for the EFMB. "
That has nothing to do with what we are discussing...... in your own words, " soldier who deliberately Failed Every Test for the EFMB. "
The APFT is not done as a TEST, it is a prerequisite to be eligible for the test.
There is ZERO difference in application of the APFT for annual record APFT or EIB prequisist.
NOW, in 1984, the APFT WAS part of the EIB test not a prereq... so in 1984 you may have had a point..but this is not 1984, and we are not discussing TESTING.
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SSG Ken Schiffner
My initial feeling on this thread was shock that 11B's would not make every effort to get the EIB. But then i went in the way back machine and remembered there were a lot of soldiers in the infantry that didn't belong. Testing started shortly after I arrived in Baumholder from AIT. Another guy I went to OSUT with and I (both E-1's) earned our EIB that first time. My E-6 squad leader enlisted me to help him prepare the following year, and us 2 privates were evaluators. Getting that badge was a highlight of my career.
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I'm not sure what level of punishment should be utilized but I think it would be warranted anytime a soldier fails a task on purpose. Whether it be a PT test or land nav. We're looking for 100% effort all the time. That doesn't mean you pass 100% of the time. It means you try to pass 100% of the time. It's the same thing I tell my kids. If the best grade you can get in math is a D then that's fine. But if you make a D because you didn't try, and you could've made a B, we have a problem.
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SGM Erik Marquez
MAJ (Join to see) "I'm not sure what level of punishment should be utilized "
It is a self correcting event as long as the CDR was using the event as a record APFT so as to not waste training resources and accomplish multiple tasks in one event
Record AFT required by AR350-1 and EIB prequal
So "punishment " just what the SM earned by failing the record APFT.
That said,,,EIB is a resource intensive event....someone needs to guard the site at night...would that be those that are still in competition for the badge? Or those not competing?
While SM are on the EIB site training up or testing, Tasking continue from higher and unit internal. That 10 man tasking BDE called for to cut the HQ grass and pick weeds this weekend...Now lets see should I pull SPC Everett from EIB training for that or should I assign SPC Marquez who failed the EIB APFT by doing 3 PU and getting up? Hmmmm, let me think.....
It is a self correcting event as long as the CDR was using the event as a record APFT so as to not waste training resources and accomplish multiple tasks in one event
Record AFT required by AR350-1 and EIB prequal
So "punishment " just what the SM earned by failing the record APFT.
That said,,,EIB is a resource intensive event....someone needs to guard the site at night...would that be those that are still in competition for the badge? Or those not competing?
While SM are on the EIB site training up or testing, Tasking continue from higher and unit internal. That 10 man tasking BDE called for to cut the HQ grass and pick weeds this weekend...Now lets see should I pull SPC Everett from EIB training for that or should I assign SPC Marquez who failed the EIB APFT by doing 3 PU and getting up? Hmmmm, let me think.....
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SGM Erik Marquez
MAJ (Join to see) - I was only a SPC 10 months, but I can still be "creative" like one when needed.
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SSG (Join to see)
I can just see this happening. soldier Stands before the C.O. for an Article 15 for failure of a PT test. Soldier is not required to submit to Article 15 Action. Request a Court Martial. Referred to JAG. How far do you think it will go? The Soldiers Defense Attorney will have this thing dropped like a hot potato.
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I always though the punishment was to take the EIB test and training every year regardless if you had your EIB already :) If a troop purposely failed his EIB testing I would have him continue on and constantly take the training to assist him in earning his EIB only a fool or and outright idiot fails it on purpose. The EIB is the pinnacle for a peacetime Infantryman and all line dogs should do their best to earn it or seek another MOS.
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SSG (Join to see)
Does not the Regulation state that participants for the EIB VOLUNTEER? Not VOLENTOLD??
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1SG Dennis Hicks
SSG (Join to see) - Back before you young folks :) had the Internet there was one copy of the regs in the unit so doing research was not that easy. I didn't get to see an AR 670-1 until it was brought forth from its golden arc in the 1SG's office where it remained in the 1SG's hands as he looked up a reg for you. I am sure the inner secret circle of PSG's were allowed to touch the cover page on high holidays :) On a Side note we were all told that it was Army training and you will attend Army training, testing was another matter. I used to go for a better reason, I would coach and help my troops who didn't have theirs up to the point I was not allowed near the testing station. Woe is the squad leader/PSG that do everything within their power to earn the Company EIB Streamer :)
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SSG (Join to see)
I joined the Army when communications between units were done by telegraph key. I also remember the laborious task of making pencil and ink changes to published Army Regulations. In previous posts I mentioned when I sat in on a Court Martial for a Soldier from my Company was charged with Dereliction of Duty and Failure to Obey a Lawful Order. The Soldier was Acquitted and the Command was raked under the Coals for saying the EFMB was "Mandatory Training." This occurred in 1984 with the 498th support Bn 2nd Armor Division Forward Lucius D. Clay Kaserne.
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1SG Dennis Hicks
My you are old :) What you said may have happened, I can only talk about what I saw and from my experience. I had those wild Vietnam era NCO's from 78 till about 86. They were smart enough to get troops to training without resorting to threats of CM. In my day peers would self police the ranks for those attracting the wrong attention. I was til present at EIB training and testing as a SFC. Only a true idiot would not take training and attempt to pass to better learn their MOS. Of course I was in in the 82d in a line unit for 11years so others may experience different results.
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Anyone should be punished for failing any required/career enhancing test on purpose--degree of punishment will depend.
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SPC Mark Spivey
I would say there should be some sort of loss of privileges especially if they took a spot from someone who wanted to go for it. I don't know the details that it take to earn the EIB but I am sure it is not an easy Badge to earn. I earned the EFMB badge and I trained for the forced road march to ensure I finished well before the time limit. To me that was the easier part, the skills portion of the test were highly demanding. There was also a written exam which was the cause of about 50% of the washouts, they even gave people two tries. I bet the EIB is as challenging and for someone not to try or purposely fail is beyond my comprehension. Those 2 badges you have to earn with completing highly specialized tests. The combat infantry Badge is regarded higher as well as the combat medic badge but you can't minimize the EIB or the EFMB. It is disgraceful that anyone should not have the honor to do their best. They should loose a few weekend on extra duty. Punks
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SSG (Join to see)
I can just see this happening. soldier Stands before the C.O. for an Article 15 for failure of a PT test or any Career enhancing test. Soldier is not required to submit to Article 15 Action. Request a Court Martial. Referred to JAG. How far do you think it will go? The Soldiers Defense Attorney will have this thing dropped like a hot potato.
Senior Leadership FAILS to Read the Regulations in Full. IF the Regulation states Soldier's must VOLUNTEER. Then proof that the soldier Volunteered of his own free will must be provided prior to any punitive actions.
Senior Leadership FAILS to Read the Regulations in Full. IF the Regulation states Soldier's must VOLUNTEER. Then proof that the soldier Volunteered of his own free will must be provided prior to any punitive actions.
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Yes. I received mine back in 1962 as an E-4. A promotion came with it. If someone in my Battle Groups purposely failed I would have kicked his butt given the opportunity.
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OK... Forgive me, Marine here, I don't understand all the gee-gaws and doodads. Just makes the uniform harder to square away for inspection.
I don't completely understand the purpose of the Expert Infantry Badge (EIB). If my online search is correct, the EIB) is a "consolation" badge for those infantrymen that haven't qualified for the Combat Infantry Badge(CIB). You cannot wear both, so it doesn't get you one more charm for the charm bracelet. Lack of an EIB doesn't disqualify a soldier from earning a CIB, or for that matter, deployment or combat assignment.
It appears to me that successful completion of the EIB stations is fundamental to the MOS. The ability to complete the test should be a given, not a reason for another doodad. As an infantry leader, I'd have mandatory after hours and weekend remedial training set up for any infantryman that failed the EIB stations, not as punishment; but to make sure the soldier is equipped with baseline skills for the battlefield.
What is the "downside of earning the EIB; that motivates some soldiers to purposely fail the test?
I don't completely understand the purpose of the Expert Infantry Badge (EIB). If my online search is correct, the EIB) is a "consolation" badge for those infantrymen that haven't qualified for the Combat Infantry Badge(CIB). You cannot wear both, so it doesn't get you one more charm for the charm bracelet. Lack of an EIB doesn't disqualify a soldier from earning a CIB, or for that matter, deployment or combat assignment.
It appears to me that successful completion of the EIB stations is fundamental to the MOS. The ability to complete the test should be a given, not a reason for another doodad. As an infantry leader, I'd have mandatory after hours and weekend remedial training set up for any infantryman that failed the EIB stations, not as punishment; but to make sure the soldier is equipped with baseline skills for the battlefield.
What is the "downside of earning the EIB; that motivates some soldiers to purposely fail the test?
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SPC Mark Spivey
We had the 12 mile full ruck 40 lbs and weapon with Aid bag, I think there was a 2 hour time limit. It weeded out a lot of those unprepared
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Maj John Bell
SSG (Join to see) - I'm a former Marine so I'm the EIB was never a consideration. But we had an 18 months between deployments when I was in. We didn't come to full TO&E strengths until 180 days out. But at anytime, any Marine that failed a mission critical MOS skill was in remedial training. It didn't happen often, and was always after hours or weekends. We worked unit level skills in the field prior to deployment. If someone was deficient in their individual skills, it usually showed up in unit level training. If two or more in a squad, three or more in a platoon, were deficient, their might be some time put into the garrison schedule for refresher training for the whole squad or platoon.
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SSG (Join to see)
Maj John Bell - Ahhh ok sir, thought you were Army, but understood. Had the pleasure of working with the devil dogs back in 05 in Al Anbar province.
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CW2 Stephen Pate
This sounds like a good replacement for the APFT! Shouldn't every Soldier have to do this?
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I can't imagine failing anything on purpose, but I'd request a flag on the individual since it's an APFT. When I was stationed in Germany we were invited to participate in the 1/ 16th Infantry's EIB training and testing since we were DS support to them. As Engineers we were not authorized to receive the EIB but the training and testing was time well spent and we were better Soldiers for the experience. As I remember it the testing was very strict and only a few Infantrymen received the badge. I can't imagine someone not wanting to do their best on a badge that represents excellence in their field.
My uncles Richard and Gramp were WWII infantrymen and held both the EIB and CIB, I remember they were very proud of their EIBs even though it wasn't as fancy as their CIB. As Dick said "There's thousands of WWII Infantrymen with CIB'S...Ain't near so many with that." In my little squirrel mind that meant/ means it's a value added badge.
My uncles Richard and Gramp were WWII infantrymen and held both the EIB and CIB, I remember they were very proud of their EIBs even though it wasn't as fancy as their CIB. As Dick said "There's thousands of WWII Infantrymen with CIB'S...Ain't near so many with that." In my little squirrel mind that meant/ means it's a value added badge.
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CSM Richard StCyr
SSG Robert Perrotto - Unless something has changed recently, only Soldiers with the Infantry MOS could be awarded and wear the badge. When we participated in 1984-85 it was purely an exercise in training and building relationships with the Troops we supported on a regular basis.
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SSG (Join to see)
Negative soldiers of other mos outside can indeed take and earn the eib however you must be a infantryman to wear it.
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CSM Richard StCyr
SSG (Join to see) - Not sure if you were responding to Rob or me, I should have pasted the info from the Pam earlier as some folks will surely confuse training and testing with "earning", however As it was in my youth so it is today, the USAIS Pam 350-6 that governs the testing and training for the CIB is still clear, you can train but you can not, "receive or earn" the EIB if you are not in an Infantry MOS. Thanks for the input.
The target audience for this pamphlet is:
• Infantry Soldiers currently serving in Career Management Field 11.
• Special Forces Soldiers in occupational specialties 18A, 18B, 18C, 18E, 18F, and
18Z.
• Infantry Soldiers and Commissioned Infantry Officers in the U.S. Army, U.S. Army
Reserve (USAR), and Army National Guard (ARNG).
Note: This training publication can be used for other Military Occupational Specialties as a guide for their warrior task training events; however training, testing, and awarding of the Expert Infantryman Badge is specifically for Infantry and Special Forces personnel only. This standard may not be waived.
The proponent of this publication is the United States Army Infantry School. Send comments, recommendations, and all other correspondence related to this manual to the following address:
Chief of Infantry, USAIS ATTN: ATSH-IP (EIB)
1 Karker Street, Suite 6100
Ft. Benning, GA 31905-5593
Phone: [login to see]
Web Site: http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/eib
The target audience for this pamphlet is:
• Infantry Soldiers currently serving in Career Management Field 11.
• Special Forces Soldiers in occupational specialties 18A, 18B, 18C, 18E, 18F, and
18Z.
• Infantry Soldiers and Commissioned Infantry Officers in the U.S. Army, U.S. Army
Reserve (USAR), and Army National Guard (ARNG).
Note: This training publication can be used for other Military Occupational Specialties as a guide for their warrior task training events; however training, testing, and awarding of the Expert Infantryman Badge is specifically for Infantry and Special Forces personnel only. This standard may not be waived.
The proponent of this publication is the United States Army Infantry School. Send comments, recommendations, and all other correspondence related to this manual to the following address:
Chief of Infantry, USAIS ATTN: ATSH-IP (EIB)
1 Karker Street, Suite 6100
Ft. Benning, GA 31905-5593
Phone: [login to see]
Web Site: http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/eib
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SSG James Gass
I did basic training at FLW, MO in Jan-Feb 65 timeframe. I remember one of the DIs had the EIB and another one had the CIB. We were talking to the one with the EIB and his opinion as expressed was that the EIB was only done by testing. He then stated that his view was the CIB was the only one he would take if actually given a choice of which to earn/be rewarded. I think I would have to agree with him.
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Well first, lets keep in mind the EIB is a VOLUNTARY competition. No where is it required and when I was in I thought it was the height of stupidity of military units to try and make it mandatory by insisting it was regular training. Second, I would find out why the individual or group of soldiers is rejecting the competition. To me that is a morale problem not a respect issue as most Soldiers should strive for the EIB. In regards to failing the PT Test, your unit should state that every PT test given is a PT Test for record..........that's what I would do there, if it is possible.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SSG (Join to see) - "But the EIB Apft is not record."
Thats a unit decision, It CAN be a record APFT with just the commander announcing it as such ... THE APFT for EIB is conducted exactly as any other APFT only the standards to pass are different.. So you record the results, in two places, the EIB testing tracker, and in DTMS for SM records filling out a pt card as well for records.
Thats a unit decision, It CAN be a record APFT with just the commander announcing it as such ... THE APFT for EIB is conducted exactly as any other APFT only the standards to pass are different.. So you record the results, in two places, the EIB testing tracker, and in DTMS for SM records filling out a pt card as well for records.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGM Erik Marquez - that's true I agree with you 100% SGM....... hopefully the commander is a nice guy that day......
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SSG (Join to see)
Also keep in mind you can pass the soft army standards and still fail the eib apft since you are required to.score higher in each event.
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Not a soldier, but I say if they fail any PT test, they should be punished. We all have a standard to enforce (yep, even the Army, I suppose). For Marines, you're looked down on if you do anything short of a first class PFT, and some schools, like Marine Security Guard school and Sergeants Course require it. To get lower than first class at these schools as a Sgt or higher will usually earn you an adverse FitRep, which is most likely career-ending these days. Fail it altogether, and you'll not only get negative paperwork, but also get put on RCP to get you in shape and will be ineligible for promotion until you get off the program, no matter what rank you are.
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