Posted on Apr 6, 2014
Should the Army stop displaying the flag incorrectly?
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<P>Before anyone comments that it isn't displayed incorrectly, please hear me out! <BR></P>
<P>I absolutely understand that it is displayed so that it appears that the flag is moving forward into battle, rather than retreating from battle. I like the argument.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>However according to US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, the Union is always to appear to the observers left. It does mention that a "flag patch" may be warn on the uniforms of the members of the Armed Forces, but it does not say that it should have the Union appear the observers right, if worn on the right shoulder. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Instead of making up arbitrary excuses for why we don't follow the US Flag Code shouldn't we just wear it the correct way, or petition the Congress to pass an amendment to the Code to allow for us to wear it this way?<BR><BR>Here is a few quotes from the U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1. These are the only quotes that I could find after actually reading the entire chapter, (which took me a couple of hours) if you find any more please let me know!<BR><BR>Also, if I understand the law structure correctly, this supercedes the UCMJ and definitely supercedes AR 670-1. If I am incorrect on that, please let me know as well! Thank you!<BR> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri>“The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender." (U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(b))</FONT></FONT></FONT></P><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street."(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(i))</FONT></P><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8(j))<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>
<P>I absolutely understand that it is displayed so that it appears that the flag is moving forward into battle, rather than retreating from battle. I like the argument.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>However according to US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, the Union is always to appear to the observers left. It does mention that a "flag patch" may be warn on the uniforms of the members of the Armed Forces, but it does not say that it should have the Union appear the observers right, if worn on the right shoulder. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Instead of making up arbitrary excuses for why we don't follow the US Flag Code shouldn't we just wear it the correct way, or petition the Congress to pass an amendment to the Code to allow for us to wear it this way?<BR><BR>Here is a few quotes from the U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1. These are the only quotes that I could find after actually reading the entire chapter, (which took me a couple of hours) if you find any more please let me know!<BR><BR>Also, if I understand the law structure correctly, this supercedes the UCMJ and definitely supercedes AR 670-1. If I am incorrect on that, please let me know as well! Thank you!<BR> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri>“The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender." (U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(b))</FONT></FONT></FONT></P><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street."(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(i))</FONT></P><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8(j))<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>
Uniforms
DA Pam 670-1
Flags and Vexillology
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 38
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One more thing for someone to whine about. Riddle me this, do your orders dictate what you do, or does an a section of administrative law dictate what you do. A lot of things we do run contrary to administrative law and regulations, but we do them anyway. A lot of what we do has waivers for admin law and regulations, or we couldn't get our jobs done. Quit trying to stir the pot and do your job.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Yeah, it was a simple question from something like 4 years ago. I'm not, nor was I whining when I asked the question.
This is a topic that I stumbled on when I was asked by a family member. I simply wanted to give the best answer, and I thought I'd bring the question (with evidence that I had also researched it) to the RP community.
If you dislike that I asked the question, so be it. That is certainly your right.
However, to allege that I'm "stirring the pot" and not "doing my job", without any evidence other than this question is kind of a dick move. I suggest you act more like an adult.
This is a topic that I stumbled on when I was asked by a family member. I simply wanted to give the best answer, and I thought I'd bring the question (with evidence that I had also researched it) to the RP community.
If you dislike that I asked the question, so be it. That is certainly your right.
However, to allege that I'm "stirring the pot" and not "doing my job", without any evidence other than this question is kind of a dick move. I suggest you act more like an adult.
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SSG Lyle O'Rorke
Definitely sounds like your the one who needs to do their job. The backwards flag was and still is an idiotic thing to have on the uniform.
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"How many angels can dance on the head or a pin?"
Okay. This has been a good thread, but (like others...IMO) the position of honor is on the right, and moving forward is much better. Good discussion.
I'm more concerned about MOS and basic branch competency. That didn't stop me from reading this thread, though! :D
Okay. This has been a good thread, but (like others...IMO) the position of honor is on the right, and moving forward is much better. Good discussion.
I'm more concerned about MOS and basic branch competency. That didn't stop me from reading this thread, though! :D
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SPC Needham, I want to commend for your courage to bring this issue up. I appreciate that you took the time to research and present this in a logical, methodical approach. I will re-engage this issue.
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The reason given is the Union of the Flag is always facing the front. Look at the way US Flagged airlines have the representation of the Flag on their aircraft.
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So, if I ran fed in battle carrying the flag, which we did in our history, then it would appear backwards and thereby be in violation of the code!
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The blue star field will always be in a position of honor, as previously stated.
Top left if its displayed on a wall or hanging vertical.
Top right if its moving forward.
You can notice this on an airplane with a flag on it. The left side of the plane has the star field at the top left. The right side of the plane has the star field at the top right.
Top left if its displayed on a wall or hanging vertical.
Top right if its moving forward.
You can notice this on an airplane with a flag on it. The left side of the plane has the star field at the top left. The right side of the plane has the star field at the top right.
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I normally don't chime in on these... The display of the flag is very important and this is not just something that affects the Army. Check out any vehicle in the military inventory Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard...
This is all addressed by the Institute of Heraldry. This is where all uniform, insignia, medals, etc, decisions are kept. Here is a link about the flag -
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/FAQs/Faqs.aspx?hilite=Flag%20on%20uniforms
It is displayed with the union jack in the front to simulate one moving forward. Displaying it the other way would be indicating a retreat. If the flag is worn or painted on the left side, then the flag is one direction, if it's on the right, it's the other direction. Union jack always forward.
It's not backward, I don't know why there is even a discussion about this.
This is all addressed by the Institute of Heraldry. This is where all uniform, insignia, medals, etc, decisions are kept. Here is a link about the flag -
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/FAQs/Faqs.aspx?hilite=Flag%20on%20uniforms
It is displayed with the union jack in the front to simulate one moving forward. Displaying it the other way would be indicating a retreat. If the flag is worn or painted on the left side, then the flag is one direction, if it's on the right, it's the other direction. Union jack always forward.
It's not backward, I don't know why there is even a discussion about this.
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MAJ (Join to see)
For civilians, absolutely. It is a highly encouraged suggestion, but not following it will not get you in any legal hot water. This is what allows people to burn or stomp on flags as a form of protest, for example.
For government service in a designated uniform (military, police, fire rescue, etc.) I think it's actually enforceable, though since the code itself does not carry direct penalties I think the laws or practices of the component would need to address it more directly. I think for military, failure to abide by the uniform regulations is the worst it could be considered, and I have no idea if anyone has ever had UCMJ pulled out on them over that.
For government service in a designated uniform (military, police, fire rescue, etc.) I think it's actually enforceable, though since the code itself does not carry direct penalties I think the laws or practices of the component would need to address it more directly. I think for military, failure to abide by the uniform regulations is the worst it could be considered, and I have no idea if anyone has ever had UCMJ pulled out on them over that.
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Excellent topic of discussion. Love the friendly banter, respect and professionalism shown by everyone involved!
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While you make good points, I think the answer will just end up being "That's the way it has always been done."
As far as the right side being a place of honor, the only thing that comes to mind is the way things were done when knights protected the public. Most knights fought right handed therefore they needed that side of their body open and clear to engage a threat. This sort of thing continues today if I'm not mistaken between two people, one being of senior rank. Is it not regulation that if say an E5 is walking with an E8, the E5 should be on the left and one pace behind?
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Good point SGT Keen, I didn't even think of that.
Something that one of the Captains in my unit pointed out to me today was that, generally, police, fire departments, EMT's etc. Wear a flag on the left shoulder.
He thinks that it is symbolic of a shield and sword. We wear it on the right, because that is where a sword would be carried. They wear it on the left, because that is where the shield would be carried.
Both of these thoughts, yours and the CPT's are ones that I had never thought of.
Something that one of the Captains in my unit pointed out to me today was that, generally, police, fire departments, EMT's etc. Wear a flag on the left shoulder.
He thinks that it is symbolic of a shield and sword. We wear it on the right, because that is where a sword would be carried. They wear it on the left, because that is where the shield would be carried.
Both of these thoughts, yours and the CPT's are ones that I had never thought of.
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Here's one for you. When the flag is displayed suspended from two objects, either horizontally or vertically,and is therefore visible from both sides how is the Union oriented?
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Sorry, I didn't get a chance to respond. I was actually thinking that. However I couldn't find the answer from a reputable source. Thank you for the information SSG.
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SPC(P) Needham, you make a very good argument. When I was in Italy, we actually wore it under the 173rd patch on the left shoulder. The flag was always flying in the correct manner then. After our first deployment 2003 to Iraq, the 173rd converted to the right shoulder flag patch.
See the full military profile of this Maintenance Support Team (14G Operator) at HHB, 1-188 ADA, stationed at Grandforks, ND | RallyPoint professional military profile.
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If you are wearing the flag on your right shoulder and turn to look at it... which side is the union on?
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So riddle me this, when the Flag is suspended upon a flag pole, the blue field with the stars are always next to the pole correct? Answer is yes, so depending on which side of the flag pole you are viewing the flag from, the stars and blue field may be to the left or the right correct? Again answer is yes. Bottom line we wear the flag on the right shoulder, thus we are a flag pole and thus it is displayed correctly, thus end of discussion.
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SSG Robert Spear
I like the way we wear the flag, theoretically, when marching forward the flag will fly to the rear, so the symbolism is spot on.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
SSG Harrison,
I do have to ask you which lawyers to which you refer, which SSG Burns, unfortunately, beat me to. I would bet, (though, I admittedly do not know, and therefore won't make a factual statement such as yours) that the lawyers only get involved if the Regulation is challenged.
Again, I am simply asking the question. I, personally think that the law could support either way, but I think there is more support for my argument than yours.
Also, I would appreciate it if we could at least remain somewhat civil. I don't think I have given you any reason to treat me with the perceived disrespect that I have gotten from you. Yet your first response to my initial question was very disrespectful, (and borderline hateful) from my perception.
Lastly, the very fact that the Code does not address the way that the flag is to be displayed on the uniform means that I do have a leg to stand on. It simply doesn't say one way or another, therefore I can argue just as easily as you can for the opposite position. You can't prove that you are right, and I can't prove that I am right.
Respectfully,
SPC Needham
I do have to ask you which lawyers to which you refer, which SSG Burns, unfortunately, beat me to. I would bet, (though, I admittedly do not know, and therefore won't make a factual statement such as yours) that the lawyers only get involved if the Regulation is challenged.
Again, I am simply asking the question. I, personally think that the law could support either way, but I think there is more support for my argument than yours.
Also, I would appreciate it if we could at least remain somewhat civil. I don't think I have given you any reason to treat me with the perceived disrespect that I have gotten from you. Yet your first response to my initial question was very disrespectful, (and borderline hateful) from my perception.
Lastly, the very fact that the Code does not address the way that the flag is to be displayed on the uniform means that I do have a leg to stand on. It simply doesn't say one way or another, therefore I can argue just as easily as you can for the opposite position. You can't prove that you are right, and I can't prove that I am right.
Respectfully,
SPC Needham
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SFC Benjamin Harrison
Review AR 25-30 for legal review of military publications.
AR 670-1 specifies how the flag will be worn.
If you think I am being hateful or disrespectful, you need to grow some thicker skin. I enjoy debating, I enjoy it more when subordinates will take the time to research as you did initialy but later faultered when challenged.
Use all resources available to you such as the Army Publishing Directorate website: apd.army.mil.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
SSG Harrison,
I don't think that I was the only one who thought that your original comment was less than respectful. However, as one who often comes off in the same manner, I understand your point of view. I also enjoy debating on pretty much every topic under the sun. I guess I miss judged the overall tone of your original post. Thank you for the clarification.
As to how I later "faultered when challenged" I don't know what you are referring to. I think that I provided logical, documented, and respectful rebuttles to your points. I didn't faulter.
As to AR 25-30, I stand corrected. I wasn't aware of that Reg, however I am now. Thank you for pointing me in that direction so that I could grow my knowledge and understanding of the Regulation Process. I greatly appreciate it.
I don't think that I was the only one who thought that your original comment was less than respectful. However, as one who often comes off in the same manner, I understand your point of view. I also enjoy debating on pretty much every topic under the sun. I guess I miss judged the overall tone of your original post. Thank you for the clarification.
As to how I later "faultered when challenged" I don't know what you are referring to. I think that I provided logical, documented, and respectful rebuttles to your points. I didn't faulter.
As to AR 25-30, I stand corrected. I wasn't aware of that Reg, however I am now. Thank you for pointing me in that direction so that I could grow my knowledge and understanding of the Regulation Process. I greatly appreciate it.
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