Posted on Jun 30, 2014
Should the US Navy allow all berthing areas on Ship to be open to both genders?
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In the US Navy we have Traditionally Berthed enlisted personnel by Department and Division on Ships. With the introduction of Women on ships the Enlisted Berthing Areas have now been segregated into males being berthed by Department and Division and females into their separate areas. Officers live in Staterooms of 1, 2, or more officers and so the problem is much easier to handle.
To me this has always been strange because it breaks up work groups and separates people artificially. Sex between Sailors on the same ship has never been allowed, so that should not be a problem (right!) Now we have the added mixture of people being openly gay yet still assigned to the same berthing considerations.
BEQs at Shore Establishments have different rules based on availability of housing more than on gender. Is it time for a change or not?
To me this has always been strange because it breaks up work groups and separates people artificially. Sex between Sailors on the same ship has never been allowed, so that should not be a problem (right!) Now we have the added mixture of people being openly gay yet still assigned to the same berthing considerations.
BEQs at Shore Establishments have different rules based on availability of housing more than on gender. Is it time for a change or not?
Gender
Women in the Military
Boats
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 150
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The first female of my rate in the Navy worked for me I was the night check supervisor ,Vf124 AME Shop around 1974 or 1975. It was tough enough getting everyone to work together on shore duty. Now you want them to sleep together on sea duty and work together. Oh my, I'm glad I'm retired.
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Suspended Profile
Master Chief - in what Navy did sailors act like adults? If they did, we'd never have Captains' Mast - that would be a refreshing change.
I was an MM2 before commissioning - I've seen both sides of the aisle. I always laughed when I heard mid grade enlisted personnel lamenting that officers had no common sense, but the enlisted men did...
I was an MM2 before commissioning - I've seen both sides of the aisle. I always laughed when I heard mid grade enlisted personnel lamenting that officers had no common sense, but the enlisted men did...
CMDCM Gene Treants
LCDR Jaron Matlow I am not saying this is going to be easy, paradigm shifts never are. However, then same thinking that says JO's have no common sense is what says that Sailors cannot act like Adults. How many of our Sailors actually go to Mast as compared to the number who do not even get into trouble? Think really hard about this Commander and include the Wardroom.
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Suspended Profile
I suspect that the ratios are very different for enlisted and officers. It takes a really egregious offense for an officer to go to mast. Enlisted men go to mast for many things that officers don't.
At the same time, your point is well taken that overall, the percentage of sailors going to mast is not large. It also depends on what their rating and rate are. Unrated and more junior sailors tend to get in trouble more than senior sailors do, although sadly I've seen a Master Chief with 7 gold hashmarks switch to red for a DUI. It happens to the best of people at the worst of times...
At the same time, your point is well taken that overall, the percentage of sailors going to mast is not large. It also depends on what their rating and rate are. Unrated and more junior sailors tend to get in trouble more than senior sailors do, although sadly I've seen a Master Chief with 7 gold hashmarks switch to red for a DUI. It happens to the best of people at the worst of times...
CMDCM Gene Treants
One of the things I noticed as a CMC, and I'm Sure Others noticed it too, was that sometimes Officers did not get the same punishment as enlisted personnel, to which you eluded. However, I have been there, unlike most, when that same officer, got the ass chewing of his life and knew that his career hinged on total and real good conduct AND perfect leadership from that point forward. I didn't like being there any more than that JO, but the CO wanted a witness who was not in the Wardroom, especially the XO.
I also knew a ETCM who retired with Red Hashmarks. During Vietnam he was an E-9 and made E-6. He actually made it back to E-9 and retired as a MCPO, but never had enough time to get gold back. (He had to have his crows custom made, ETCM Crows did not come in Red.)
I also knew a ETCM who retired with Red Hashmarks. During Vietnam he was an E-9 and made E-6. He actually made it back to E-9 and retired as a MCPO, but never had enough time to get gold back. (He had to have his crows custom made, ETCM Crows did not come in Red.)
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Yes.
Without mixed gender berthing on submarines, one female sailor can displace up to 8 sailors. That's 8 less watch-standers.
Without mixed gender berthing on submarines, one female sailor can displace up to 8 sailors. That's 8 less watch-standers.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
When you have a 9 person berthing area, you either have 9 of the same gender or mix genders. Damn, common sense. See the top picture Skimmers. (Yes I am one too.)
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Okay PO2 (Join to see) please tell me how you put 9 people in a 9 person berthing area and do not have all of one gender or mix genders? That is what i said, I thought I was agreeing with your premise.
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PO2 (Join to see)
Oh, I might have misread your reply, I thought you were stating that I was a skimmer. And that I had not read your original reply correctly.
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I was on both a Nimitz class carrier and an LSD. Both of those ships kept Departments and Divisions together to the best of their ability. If someone showed up during deployment they may end up in another area in the Department berthing but never outside of it. As for the females, they were thrown together by department.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
It is strange that a female has stated that male berthing stinks and a male said the same thing about female berthing. Just wondering if it has something to do with gender and we tend to not notice it if we are sleeping in the same area. Just a thought.
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PO2 Stephen Brinkley (Scott)
Your probably correct Master Chief. I know that I don't notice my own smell, but my wife will tell me I stink!
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There was also a similar discussion about co-ed summer camp in the Army, with some additional opinions. Obviously a bit different because, The Army doesn't live and work in tight quarters 24/7
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/males-and-females-in-separate-tents
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/males-and-females-in-separate-tents
Males and females in separate tents? | RallyPoint
If in the field should females get their own seperate tents from males? Should gays and lesbians be able to request their own seperate tents in the field as well? Why?
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Yes Sir Major and well said. We in Navy do work and live in very tight quarters day in and out. Sometimes we do not even see the sun for days on end and the is just surface ships. Thanks for the pointer to the other discussion, which is very interesting also.
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SFC (Join to see)
Sir good link.... If we have that logic then every Solider individuals - here is a tent, or a room and make sure everyone stays 10 feet away from every other person. If a woman is wounded, then we will find a straight woman to go help her so that way a man or lesbian can't not touch her....
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I see you are a veteran and not still on Active Duty. I have to wonder how long ago your vision of the Navy is. I do hope today's Sailors are becoming more mature in the way they treat each other.
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Some time in the future I can see it but not the near future. And as far as gays go the navy can't do anything about. We can't say that since someone is gay they can't sleep in that berthing of the same sex. I'm not saying the navy shouldn't put opposite sex in the same berthing. I'm just saying not for a long while. To be compleatly honest, if the navy really wanted to get rid of a lot of peopple, this would be the quickest way.
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Definitely not, this not fair to the waves. How would you feel if this was your Mother or Sister being exposed to this type of environment. They deserve their privacy.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Female Sailors stopped being called WAVES long before either of us joined the Navy, but it wouldn't bother me. All of us deserve our privacy and gave it up when we joined that Navy. As a Chief the Smallest berthing area I was ever in was an 18 person compartment and prior to that the biggest one was about 50 men. Not much "privacy" in either of those. My last ship was an Aegis Cruiser with over 40 men in CPO Berthing. 'nuff said?
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I feel that right now, we are not ready for this. I think that in some cases this would work and everything would go fine. Until we deal with the larger issue of sexual assault, I do not see this going well. But who knows? maybe this will help eliminate sexual assault.
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MCPO Gene Treants,
Reading through a good portion of replies, it is already happening and has been. Sex in berthing will happen when berthing combined genders.
Can it be avoided? In time, with proper training, return of higher Morals. It could be like Starship Troopers. As long as our Society continues to place a aura of taboo to nudity and sex alike, it won't happen.
That is really the root of the problem. The 'taboos' of our Society. Train this out of the Service Members, set the standards of equal in the eyes of the beholder. In a way, take the lifestyle of the Nudists'. They do not see a "naked person" walking around. They see just another person. Age and gender is not 'observed' within these Resorts.
It would have to start in Basic Training. Not in the Fleet, Army, or Air Base. We are trained to be what is expected of us. Broken and built back up into a Sailor, Soldier, Marine, Airman. Open Barracks in all training facilities, no private rooms. Focus on the acceptance and 'ignoring' nudity. Focus on the fact that each is the same as the other, a Service Member. Not just the opposite sex.
Society at large will be the issue to get around. The general public still feels woman should not be in the Service, in harms way.
Reading through a good portion of replies, it is already happening and has been. Sex in berthing will happen when berthing combined genders.
Can it be avoided? In time, with proper training, return of higher Morals. It could be like Starship Troopers. As long as our Society continues to place a aura of taboo to nudity and sex alike, it won't happen.
That is really the root of the problem. The 'taboos' of our Society. Train this out of the Service Members, set the standards of equal in the eyes of the beholder. In a way, take the lifestyle of the Nudists'. They do not see a "naked person" walking around. They see just another person. Age and gender is not 'observed' within these Resorts.
It would have to start in Basic Training. Not in the Fleet, Army, or Air Base. We are trained to be what is expected of us. Broken and built back up into a Sailor, Soldier, Marine, Airman. Open Barracks in all training facilities, no private rooms. Focus on the acceptance and 'ignoring' nudity. Focus on the fact that each is the same as the other, a Service Member. Not just the opposite sex.
Society at large will be the issue to get around. The general public still feels woman should not be in the Service, in harms way.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Society at large is still SHOCKED by a nursing mother in public. When are we going to grow up in this country PO2 Thomas MacDermott?
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PO2 Thomas MacDermott
Wish there was an answer to that, Master Chief. We as a Society have let 'puritists' control the views through censorship and condemnation, to the point we are fast approaching pre-Victorian values. Definately have regressed to the 40's as to what is acceptable between the genders.
Us children of the '60 and '70's saw the closest acceptance of equal gender veiws of nudity. Then it changed quickly. How, why? We could probably spend a day or so talking/dissecting and still be no closer.
Us children of the '60 and '70's saw the closest acceptance of equal gender veiws of nudity. Then it changed quickly. How, why? We could probably spend a day or so talking/dissecting and still be no closer.
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