Posted on Jun 30, 2014
Should the US Navy allow all berthing areas on Ship to be open to both genders?
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In the US Navy we have Traditionally Berthed enlisted personnel by Department and Division on Ships. With the introduction of Women on ships the Enlisted Berthing Areas have now been segregated into males being berthed by Department and Division and females into their separate areas. Officers live in Staterooms of 1, 2, or more officers and so the problem is much easier to handle.
To me this has always been strange because it breaks up work groups and separates people artificially. Sex between Sailors on the same ship has never been allowed, so that should not be a problem (right!) Now we have the added mixture of people being openly gay yet still assigned to the same berthing considerations.
BEQs at Shore Establishments have different rules based on availability of housing more than on gender. Is it time for a change or not?
To me this has always been strange because it breaks up work groups and separates people artificially. Sex between Sailors on the same ship has never been allowed, so that should not be a problem (right!) Now we have the added mixture of people being openly gay yet still assigned to the same berthing considerations.
BEQs at Shore Establishments have different rules based on availability of housing more than on gender. Is it time for a change or not?
Gender
Women in the Military
Boats
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 150
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In a perfect world, yes... but we're a long way from perfect. Maybe this will be possible in the future when everybody truly respects each other, but I don't see such accommodations being possible in the near future. In the meantime, we'll just go on pretending that *everybody* believes in their integrity
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I do not believe that the opposite sex should share a berthing, however, you have a valid point about people that are gay and living in the same berthing. We had a problem with that in our only female berthing on my ship (a CG). The only way to prevent openly gay personnel from sleeping together in the same berthing is to have strict berthing rules and regulations laid out in black and white. And if people don't obey, write up papers. It sucks, but it's really the only way.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
When I was a CC in the ITB in Glakes we were very careful to make sure our MALE company members on the first deck could not go to the 2nd or 3rd deck. Then we found out we had a lesbian group doing what we feared the males might be doing. That is when we had to ensure everyone knew our rules included visits to another's room after tapps and NO sex of any kind in the BEQ. It was not 100% effective in stopping it all, but it did give us ammo at mast. Just like you said SN (Join to see). Hope you are enjoying Shiloh as much as I enjoyed Anzio.
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SN (Join to see)
Thank you, Master Chief. The Shiloh is okay. I've been on board for 3.5 years, so I'm ready for a change in scenery.
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I think they should to a certain degree, especially if you have duel members serving on the same ship
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CMDCM Gene Treants
By duel members I take it you are referring to married couples? If so, that is strictly against regs. Married couples may serve at the same command ashore, but not on the same ship.
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CMDCM Gene Treants I have to wonder if it's somehow possible that the photo of a female standing in a berthing is possibly the sailor that commented. I know you didn't add the photo on the discussion - I believe that is done by staff but I could be wrong.
In any event, it may very well be that the photo the staff inserted at the top of the discussion is, in fact, that sailor.
Would it be possible for Elizabeth Malkin or MAJ Laurie H. to maybe check this out to see if that is the case. I'm sure no harm was meant but I imagine stranger things have happened.
In any event, it may very well be that the photo the staff inserted at the top of the discussion is, in fact, that sailor.
Would it be possible for Elizabeth Malkin or MAJ Laurie H. to maybe check this out to see if that is the case. I'm sure no harm was meant but I imagine stranger things have happened.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I tried to look that Sailor up, but she is either new to RP or her profile is so closed to retired/vts I cannot. So, I would Like to hear more from her - and you are right I do not remember posting this picture 7 months ago.
AND the problem is solved - Someone removed that picture! Wow - it went as mysteriously as it showed up.
AND the problem is solved - Someone removed that picture! Wow - it went as mysteriously as it showed up.
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I think this is less a discussion about gender than how the Navy at Sea does Berthing than anything.
Shore-board commands are able to create "Separate but equal" (pardon the phrase) housing which eliminates 95% of this issue.
As stated in the first paragraph, the Officers use staterooms of just a few officers, so the issue becomes moot.
The enlisted however... I remember having our entire Headquarters Company in 2 Berthing Areas (Excluding Officers, and E6+) on the Essex.
Had we had women, we probably could have supported them in the same berthing area, without any issues. The only allowance we would have had to make would designated shower times for them, or just set the firewatch outside one of the bays while they were in use (as a courtesy).
With 120+ Marines in close confines, nothing would have happened in the berthing areas.
Shore-board commands are able to create "Separate but equal" (pardon the phrase) housing which eliminates 95% of this issue.
As stated in the first paragraph, the Officers use staterooms of just a few officers, so the issue becomes moot.
The enlisted however... I remember having our entire Headquarters Company in 2 Berthing Areas (Excluding Officers, and E6+) on the Essex.
Had we had women, we probably could have supported them in the same berthing area, without any issues. The only allowance we would have had to make would designated shower times for them, or just set the firewatch outside one of the bays while they were in use (as a courtesy).
With 120+ Marines in close confines, nothing would have happened in the berthing areas.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I would expect nothing less from the Marines. I do remember that on Nashville we did have some problems getting Marines to understand that on ships we berthed E-7 and above in Navy CPO Quarters not E-6 and above as the Marines do.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
We had GySgt+ in the Chiefs Mess, and we had a separate SSgt Berthing actually, since we had to play nice with the Navy MCPO!
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Have you seen the male berthings! They smell and hot rack and are disgusting! Cag females share a berthing and it never gets like that. We respect each other's spaces. Plus, I like to sleep in just my underwear and I couldn't do that in a co-Ed berthing.
I work with only guys all day so it's nice to just have girl talk with no judgements.
Also, there are males that I NEVER want to see in skivvies
I work with only guys all day so it's nice to just have girl talk with no judgements.
Also, there are males that I NEVER want to see in skivvies
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CMDCM Gene Treants
PO2 (Join to see) I have lived in those spaces during my career not just seen them. As a CMC I have also inspected them and tried to NOT Barf as I did so. Why do you think I live with my wife? I have seen those same guys in their skivvies! Or less!
Seriously, I do get your points and agree with many of them. It is nice to not worry about all of that make crap, but how many unused bunks are there in your space? Why are the guys hot racking?
Seriously, I do get your points and agree with many of them. It is nice to not worry about all of that make crap, but how many unused bunks are there in your space? Why are the guys hot racking?
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PO2 (Join to see)
There are barely any unused bunks in my berthing bc all the females in cag share it. In fact cag had to deny female orders bc we didn't have enough racks at one point.
I hear about guys hot racking all the time and how it's an issue. There is constant turmoil over the hygiene of many males.
I hear about guys hot racking all the time and how it's an issue. There is constant turmoil over the hygiene of many males.
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That would depend on the cultural significance for each gender and the militaries need to make things right for each gender. How significant is the right to privacy does each gender need? What are the traditional, cultural and military needs for such a gender mix? And what amount of privacy does each gender need to complete a military mission? As far as on gender in a birth space goes, that was the only consideration when only one gender was need or called up to serve. Now we have both, And privacy usualy took a backseat when the military needed to get something done.
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PO3 Robert Gunderson
What I am saying is Do not quick fix the situation. The military is infamous for doing just that or just looking at one side of the situation. That is usualy what is best to get the mission done. At least here they could get the situation handled right.
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PO3 Robert Gunderson
Another way to look at the situation is we have a personal, gender, and group situation brewing. Lets define some terms before going on. Ethics is the actions the individual takes because he/she is knowingly doing something wrong (and policy is published on the subject for all to see), and justice is the groups action against the individual because he/she is not willing to get their own ethics in. One other thing I also follow the rule "If it is not written, it is not true", as far as policy is concerned. Now if everyone acts and do things in a responsible way, ethics and justice does not need to be applied. But there are those who do not act in this way and we can help the person with his/her ethics on the subject. If he/she still will not act in a reasonable way apply justice in a gradient until he does. In other words, if everyone is acting reasonable in a co-ed birthing space fine there is no problems. If not move the parties that are uncomfortable with the situation to there own separate bithing seperated by gender.
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CPT Richard Riley
CMDCM Gene Treants I have to wonder if it's somehow possible that the photo of a female standing in a berthing is possibly the sailor that commented. I know you didn't add the photo on the discussion - I believe that is done by staff but I could be wrong.
In any event, it may very well be that the photo the staff inserted at the top of the discussion is, in fact, that sailor.
Would it be possible for Elizabeth Malkin or MAJ Laurie H. to maybe check this out to see if that is the case. I'm sure no harm was meant but I imagine stranger things have happened.
In any event, it may very well be that the photo the staff inserted at the top of the discussion is, in fact, that sailor.
Would it be possible for Elizabeth Malkin or MAJ Laurie H. to maybe check this out to see if that is the case. I'm sure no harm was meant but I imagine stranger things have happened.
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MAJ Laurie H.
PO1 (Join to see) CMDCM Gene Treants CPT Richard Riley Thanks for bringing this to our attention. The photo was in fact added by RP staff and we intended no harm by posting this or implying the individual in the photo was directly linked to the topic of the discussion. We've taken the photo down and do apologize. PO2 Wilson please let us know if you have any additional concerns.
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CPT Richard Riley
Thank you MAJ Laurie H. for your rapid assistance. I'm sure it clears up some confusion.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Thank you MAJ Laurie H. Since I posted this 7 months ago and got very little response back then, I really did not remember if I had posted it. PO1 (Join to see) very sorry if this caused you any discomfort.
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So here's the deal. Yes sex on ships and sex between shipmates is a nono. But guess what. It still happens every minute that goes by there is a new relationship or a new set of ppl hooking up. It's like when we were younger (speaking for my age group) our parents did everything to stop us from doing what we wanted. But at the end of the day; we still ended up getting some alone time with that special person so they could have sex. My point is Regardless of if they ever integrate or not sex between sailors is still going to happen whether big navy likes it or not. I do agree that the sexual assault rate would go up. But like I said. They will never EVER be able to stop sailors from having sex. And this is one of those other reasons that I chose to get out. We are all grown but there are so many ppl that the navy can't trust to act like adults that they have to put 10000 rules in place that make life miserable for the ppl who actually act like adults. Smh.
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I strongly believe that if you place males and females in the same berthing areas this will encourage more rapes than what is already happening. This would only highly encourage this horrible act! Do NOT do this.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
PO2 Kay Ralston this is a hypothetical question only. I disagree with your assessment and think we are a long way from doing this, if ever.
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They should definitely not be allowed to berth together. Keeping males and females segregated has nothing to do with whether or not anyone would be trying to have sex. It had to do with physical privacy while dressing or actually sleeping. In addition all women whether they're straight, gay or any other orientation have times where personal privacy I'd of the utmost importance. They are also bound to have times where dressing in the head just isn't possible and they may need to dress in the berthing area. It would be very unfair to force them to do so in the presence of male shipmates.
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I believe a transition would be viable if we started with a "segregated" berthing area where it was males on one side and females on the other. Same compartment, but still segregated. Just a thought.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I really think that is the way it will go, at least at first. It is very easy to subdivide many compartments and have 6, 12, 15, or other subsections. Thanks for the idea PO1 (Join to see).
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Male and female berthing is normally separated and should be, but there will be times when hanky panky will occur as human nature is hard to control
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Oh I fully agree MGySgt George W Iliffe Jr. people will be people and I understand that, but there are lines that cannot be crossed.
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Honestly I don't see this as a problem. It's all about trust and your workshop is your family. Sleeping in a berthing with your family of same and opposite sex shouldnt and most likely wouldnt be a problem. On duty we sleep in the workshop half of the time anyways, so right there is co-ed arrangements of sleeping in a shop. Not a problem in my perspective.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Damn AA (Join to see) there you are bringing logic into this thread. Next thing you will do is go into a battle of wits armed with brains. Well done! (that is a BZ from a retired guy.)
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I think it's a tradition that will never be broken. It could work with different living arrangements but it will have to be well thought out.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I would seriously think that much thought and planning would go into a move like this.
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Don't truly know enough about Naval ships to take a solid position. From an outsider's point of view, Navy ships are limited in space and facilities. From the surface, it would be worth considering opening them up to male and females for maximizing usage of them.
Not that concerned mixing male and females. I believe Sailors are disciplined and can handle coed sharing.
Not that concerned mixing male and females. I believe Sailors are disciplined and can handle coed sharing.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Actually SFC Michael Jackson, MBA your last sentence was the premise of my question. Many seem to disagree with us on that point.
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This is a workplace, not a barracks. There still needs to be a level of professionalism. Sleeping in separate berthings does not separate you from your division. With males and females sleeping in the same berthing I feel like any other scenario they will start sleeping together. That is not only fraternization. 1. If two people date and then break up that's more unneeded stress. 2. If a female gets pregnant we lose a body and then everyone else has to pick up the workload. 3. If a first and whoever are caught sleeping together that's mast and loss of more bodies. This will only cause problems.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
PO3 (Join to see) I totally agree that any ship is a workplace and not a barracks. in response to your points: 1. Dating in the same chain of command - especially in the same work center has always been not only frowned upon, but essentially illegal. 2. I would hope that by now females as well as males would know the whys and hows of NOT getting pregnant, but many still use it as a way to get out of deployment. That goes for married as well as single personnel, even though only married men can claim Paternity Leave (or has that changed). 3. If any 2 people, regardless of paygrade or gender, are caught sleeping together it should still be mast, and the punishment should be more severe if there is a senior PO, CPO, or Officer involved.
Lastly, are all of the fan rooms and workspaces locked and/or guarded. We all know that berthing spaces are not going to be anyone's first choice for an assignation. But, I really do like your response, it was well thought out and very appropriate.
Lastly, are all of the fan rooms and workspaces locked and/or guarded. We all know that berthing spaces are not going to be anyone's first choice for an assignation. But, I really do like your response, it was well thought out and very appropriate.
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We make too much of an issue out of what might happen. If your that worried make a berthing watch.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Do we really need another watch stander? and I have to ask, "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" Hint: do we need a watch to watch him/her?
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PO1 (Join to see)
i see your point. In light of that id say it would come down to training. We beat to death just about everything conceivable in navy training. And simply put if we, today, found ourselves in the midst of a third world war with say the same casualty rate then would we really have time to worry about separating the sexes? Today were all about equality, we work the same, we fight the same, we bleed the same, so dont you think its about time we stopped looking at eachother as different. Sooner or later were going to have to dispense with the plesantries, and decide that either we are all going to be held to the same standard, and treat eachother with the respect and dignity or were going to have to write this all off as a great experiment and move on. I personally think the latter would be a very wrong move. Both as an orginization, but also as a country. And seriously isnt that the direction we are going with the whole transgender thing going on in the country right now. Its only a matter of time and well be expected to accept our shipmates who make that choice just like we did those who are gay. Its all the same to me and sooner or later it will become policy. I donno thats my take on it. I could be wrong. But based off my 15 years of navy life id put my money on that bet.
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