Posted on Mar 1, 2015
Should you be considered a veteran of a particular campaign, if you have never actually been on the ground there?
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I have seen earlier discussion(s) about Vietnam Era Veterans vs. Vietnam Veterans. The later group being ones who actually served in the RVN combat theater of the operations (AOO), or (I assume) the area of responsibility (AOR). This includes ground forces in the AOO, and supporting forces in the (AOR).
The gray area, which always seems to be the area of confusion and often consternation, are those who support the AOO from outside of its boundaries and what type of support are they actually providing.
A few examples:
1. I served all over Iraq, and in Baghdad for 15 months during the Surge. As you know service members in Kuwait, Qatar and other places around the AOR, many of whom never entered Iraq, are (A) considered OIF campaign veterans, and (B) were entitled to the same pay benefits (CZTE - IDP) as we were. Serving in Baghdad, in places like Sadr City the like, I was as times frustrated that my peers on Qatar (who could even drink there) were getting the same benefits that we were. I think the only difference was they could not award combat awards and decorations.
* During a really bad time (week) during the surge, I got a photo from a buddy on email, who was on the 6 month CENTCOM rotation into Qatar, of him sitting in a Jacuzzi drinking a beer, in Qatar. I know they received CZTE, but not sure about IDP. But, they are OIF campaign veterans like me. That still bothers me. Yes, I know I need to let it go.
2. During Allied Force, USAF pilots were flying bombing missions from Aviano Italy into Kosovo and back in the same day. I don't think they qualified for any pay benefits aside from what they get normally, but there was a big "to do" when they tried to award combat medals to USAF personnel who never left Italy or EUCOM HQ (Stuttgart).
3. Today B2 Bombers fly from Missouri to current combat theaters and back in 24 hours... Are they OEF veterans? Should they be?
I am not saying only ground forces deserve credit, as I believe both those serving in the theater on ground, as well as those who provide direct support into or over the combat theater deserves the same campaign credit. Examples would be USN or USAF flying missions into the area, but returning to bases/carriers outside the AOO or even AOR. Blue water Navy providing support in the AOR etc. I suspect there are many I don't see or know about as a Soldier.
I am sure you have many examples, and I have my opinions, which are based on my experiences. I am interested in what you think, so I can broaden my perspective.
The gray area, which always seems to be the area of confusion and often consternation, are those who support the AOO from outside of its boundaries and what type of support are they actually providing.
A few examples:
1. I served all over Iraq, and in Baghdad for 15 months during the Surge. As you know service members in Kuwait, Qatar and other places around the AOR, many of whom never entered Iraq, are (A) considered OIF campaign veterans, and (B) were entitled to the same pay benefits (CZTE - IDP) as we were. Serving in Baghdad, in places like Sadr City the like, I was as times frustrated that my peers on Qatar (who could even drink there) were getting the same benefits that we were. I think the only difference was they could not award combat awards and decorations.
* During a really bad time (week) during the surge, I got a photo from a buddy on email, who was on the 6 month CENTCOM rotation into Qatar, of him sitting in a Jacuzzi drinking a beer, in Qatar. I know they received CZTE, but not sure about IDP. But, they are OIF campaign veterans like me. That still bothers me. Yes, I know I need to let it go.
2. During Allied Force, USAF pilots were flying bombing missions from Aviano Italy into Kosovo and back in the same day. I don't think they qualified for any pay benefits aside from what they get normally, but there was a big "to do" when they tried to award combat medals to USAF personnel who never left Italy or EUCOM HQ (Stuttgart).
3. Today B2 Bombers fly from Missouri to current combat theaters and back in 24 hours... Are they OEF veterans? Should they be?
I am not saying only ground forces deserve credit, as I believe both those serving in the theater on ground, as well as those who provide direct support into or over the combat theater deserves the same campaign credit. Examples would be USN or USAF flying missions into the area, but returning to bases/carriers outside the AOO or even AOR. Blue water Navy providing support in the AOR etc. I suspect there are many I don't see or know about as a Soldier.
I am sure you have many examples, and I have my opinions, which are based on my experiences. I am interested in what you think, so I can broaden my perspective.
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Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 54
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They get the same because there is still a chance that they can be involved. Look at Ballad in 2004, They may have never left base but the threat was still there. Even in Qatar, they are surrounded by possible enemies. Yes, Qatar isn't going to be the ones attacking, but groups like Al Qaeda or Isis can be anywhere. It's not if the check was cashed, it was the fact that they were willing. Yes, USAF is always going to have it easier, it's what they do, but they are still there and willing and deserve to be counted.
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You know, whatever the criteria are and having the orders for it. You got the "medal".
It may sound offensive , but I consider the whole GWOT as kind of joke, especially if talking of being "over there" . For the most part there is/was a greater chance of getting killed in the USA than actually being over there , by the numbers. It was certainly that way during the first "Gulf War" But I digress. Bill Maudlin made a fine comment about "who is in the rear?" and such.
As to Vietnam. I would think people who were over there have the right to call themselves Vietnam Vets. People who did not go to Vietnam should say I was in during Vietnam War or a Vietnam ERA Vet.
Back to your other stuff. I have an Army of Occupation Medal for service in Berlin for 57 days in 1987. That was considered a "war zone" of WWII up until 90. Guess what that makes me as far as the US gov is concerned.
Do I call myself a WWII vet? Yes I do, but I explain why, and also that I am honoured to be connected with my 3 WWII Vet grandparents now long deceased.
You know the army is a crapshoot, some people get medals for nothing and others who did extraordinary things recieved nothing. The thing is getting the paper for it. Some people get easy street and right next door hell to pay. Don't begrudge others or yourself. You know the truth.
It may sound offensive , but I consider the whole GWOT as kind of joke, especially if talking of being "over there" . For the most part there is/was a greater chance of getting killed in the USA than actually being over there , by the numbers. It was certainly that way during the first "Gulf War" But I digress. Bill Maudlin made a fine comment about "who is in the rear?" and such.
As to Vietnam. I would think people who were over there have the right to call themselves Vietnam Vets. People who did not go to Vietnam should say I was in during Vietnam War or a Vietnam ERA Vet.
Back to your other stuff. I have an Army of Occupation Medal for service in Berlin for 57 days in 1987. That was considered a "war zone" of WWII up until 90. Guess what that makes me as far as the US gov is concerned.
Do I call myself a WWII vet? Yes I do, but I explain why, and also that I am honoured to be connected with my 3 WWII Vet grandparents now long deceased.
You know the army is a crapshoot, some people get medals for nothing and others who did extraordinary things recieved nothing. The thing is getting the paper for it. Some people get easy street and right next door hell to pay. Don't begrudge others or yourself. You know the truth.
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It's a tricky question. For instance in Vietnam there were:
31 B-52's lost, 17 in combat.
2 SR-71's
859 or so Aircraft carrier based aircraft.
Now I'm not sure about the B-52's but conceivably the other two might have never set foot on the soil of Vietnam.
So, how do you quantify them as "Combat Veterans"? Did the supply Sergeant based in Thailand, Japan, or CONUS who made sure the guys on the ground had "boots, beans, and bullets" contribute less to the operations?
I struggle with this personally, I was a REMF in the 101st during Desert Storm, I fixed CH-47 engines. I didn't volunteer boldly to put myself in harms way, I was just in the right (or wrong) place at the right time. When I got orders for Ft Campbell they originally had me going to the 160th and I would have missed Desert Storm altogether.
I hung out with the Infantry and 5th group, I tried to learn as much from them as I could in case I ever found myself in a firefight. I found myself in situations where I feared for my life. Do I deserve to wear the combat patch? I'm proud to. Do I feel like I deserve special benefits from the VA, free healthcare, maybe a pension or disability check? Not really. If I found myself homeless, it would be my own doing and not because of something that happened to me while I was in the Army.
31 B-52's lost, 17 in combat.
2 SR-71's
859 or so Aircraft carrier based aircraft.
Now I'm not sure about the B-52's but conceivably the other two might have never set foot on the soil of Vietnam.
So, how do you quantify them as "Combat Veterans"? Did the supply Sergeant based in Thailand, Japan, or CONUS who made sure the guys on the ground had "boots, beans, and bullets" contribute less to the operations?
I struggle with this personally, I was a REMF in the 101st during Desert Storm, I fixed CH-47 engines. I didn't volunteer boldly to put myself in harms way, I was just in the right (or wrong) place at the right time. When I got orders for Ft Campbell they originally had me going to the 160th and I would have missed Desert Storm altogether.
I hung out with the Infantry and 5th group, I tried to learn as much from them as I could in case I ever found myself in a firefight. I found myself in situations where I feared for my life. Do I deserve to wear the combat patch? I'm proud to. Do I feel like I deserve special benefits from the VA, free healthcare, maybe a pension or disability check? Not really. If I found myself homeless, it would be my own doing and not because of something that happened to me while I was in the Army.
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I served two months in West Berlin before the wall fell. I received an Army of Occupation Medal w/orders. I am considered by the US Gov. and considered myself a WWII Vet. Of which I am very proud to have served in the same war 3 of my grandparents were in the services. :)
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I worked at the US embassy in Kuwait from 2000-2003 and my ancillary duties included (but not limited to) diplomatic clearances and protocol. I noticed that General Officers (especially Nat'l Guard) would come to "visit the troops" and made arrangements to arrive on the 30th of a month and depart on the 1st or 2nd. We all KNEW this was so they could collect 2 months of tax free "combat zone" pay. This happened in Afghanistan (we gave those clearances as well). While perfectly legal, do we consider these guys (and their very large staffs) combat vets? Also, and this really annoys me: What about political aspirants who become "guard bums" who cherry pick active duty tours to combat that will require never leaving the FOB and then they go out after an action and take "there I was photos." I can understand the first thing, but I really hate those "posers." Your thoughts Sir?
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Great issue! I came on active in Dec 71. Vietnam was on. You could not volunteer or be assigned out of tech school, so I was sent to MacDill. Me being at MacDill freed up a body to go TDY to Vietnam for 179 days. Those guys got TDY pay and per diem for hitting any one of those bases. It was a great deal -- so are they combat vets? I directly supported them, so am I? I don't know so I just consider myself a Vietnam Era vet, but that's me. I was clearly a Cold War Vet from USAFE service in the 80s, but I don't know if that counts -- it wasn't "peace" just nobody shooting yet. Of course there was no "rear area" like WW II or something. Which asks is there a rule or guideline? "How close do you have to be to actual physical dangers?" Is there a proximity rule? I was in Baghdad in July 2006 when the building I was in was hit by sustained mortar fire and I got some detritus blown in my face when a round landed in the court yard and blew in the window. Does that count as combat? I'm not shooting, I wasn't even carrying a sidearm. I was a civilian contractor, but retired? So am I a combat vet? I have no idea. I only know I served. I'm glad I didn't piss myself.
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I will stand by a veteran is a veteran is a veteran.
Now that I got that out of the way I do not agree with people claiming they have been to the AOR/AOO when they never left their office in the States or Europe. Yes supporting the mission from afar is what everyone does in the military does.
Now that I got that out of the way I do not agree with people claiming they have been to the AOR/AOO when they never left their office in the States or Europe. Yes supporting the mission from afar is what everyone does in the military does.
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COL Charles Williams
I agree, as I have said before. That was not really the gist of my question. Yes, I veteran is a veteran. And, I also know the rules operate under are the rules we operate under. I think the embellishment piece, is part of my frustration.
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FML....gonna try this again. I'm trying to respond without turning this into a biography.
Essentially, I wouldn't worry about the "OEF vet" part. OEF covered my two times mobilizing here in the US. For me, I just tell people I "mobbed in 09-10 to Fort McCoy, 12-13 to Camp Shelby. Volunteered, but never deployed." I feel the need to say "volunteered", otherwise there are people that either think you volunteered for the CONUS missions because you're a coward and didn't want to go, or because you're just in it for the bennies and never wanted to deal with the shit that comes with the threat of being shot at. Most civilians assume the former, and the initial response from some veterans is the latter....when in reality, neither is true.
Generally, before people go into bragging rights, the question is always "really, where were you?" Anyone who says "Qatar" is automatically out of the running for worst deployment ever....unless of course you are talking to someone like me that never deployed. Additionally, the non-combat times receive decreased post-tour benefits when compared to combat veterans. If I recall, the "generalized" time in the VA is 2 years for non-combat vets (probably CONUS/Germany only, but uncertain about Qatar) and 5 years for those qualifying for combat tours. There are a few other perks that are not available to non-combat theater vets too.
To address the rest of your question, I wouldn't object to a pilot receiving some sort of combat pay for providing sorties in. Although this theater didn't have much air-opposition or AA/SA, there were I think 25 aircraft shot down during the Gulf War and there have been pilots killed as a result of ground fire in both campaigns.
I could possibly expand more on other points, but ultimately I wanted to answer the question without delving into some of the associated issues that don't pertain to the original question.
v/r,
CPT Butler
Essentially, I wouldn't worry about the "OEF vet" part. OEF covered my two times mobilizing here in the US. For me, I just tell people I "mobbed in 09-10 to Fort McCoy, 12-13 to Camp Shelby. Volunteered, but never deployed." I feel the need to say "volunteered", otherwise there are people that either think you volunteered for the CONUS missions because you're a coward and didn't want to go, or because you're just in it for the bennies and never wanted to deal with the shit that comes with the threat of being shot at. Most civilians assume the former, and the initial response from some veterans is the latter....when in reality, neither is true.
Generally, before people go into bragging rights, the question is always "really, where were you?" Anyone who says "Qatar" is automatically out of the running for worst deployment ever....unless of course you are talking to someone like me that never deployed. Additionally, the non-combat times receive decreased post-tour benefits when compared to combat veterans. If I recall, the "generalized" time in the VA is 2 years for non-combat vets (probably CONUS/Germany only, but uncertain about Qatar) and 5 years for those qualifying for combat tours. There are a few other perks that are not available to non-combat theater vets too.
To address the rest of your question, I wouldn't object to a pilot receiving some sort of combat pay for providing sorties in. Although this theater didn't have much air-opposition or AA/SA, there were I think 25 aircraft shot down during the Gulf War and there have been pilots killed as a result of ground fire in both campaigns.
I could possibly expand more on other points, but ultimately I wanted to answer the question without delving into some of the associated issues that don't pertain to the original question.
v/r,
CPT Butler
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COL Charles Williams
CPT (Join to see) Thanks for your comments and for your service. As I said above, my intent was never to disparage Soldiers who volunteer and serve where they are called to serve. All of the stateside missions and support locations are needed.
My fundamental issue/concern/question was the differences between being in the Combat Theater, Combat Zone, AOO, and AOR, and the benefits that are afforded, and the vast differences between them. I understand we don't make the rules, we just live withing them. I also realize part of this is the war stories and embellishments. I can't think of any great story that comes from being Baghdad during the surge, or other similar locations. Thanks again for your comments and insights. Thanks for your service too.
My fundamental issue/concern/question was the differences between being in the Combat Theater, Combat Zone, AOO, and AOR, and the benefits that are afforded, and the vast differences between them. I understand we don't make the rules, we just live withing them. I also realize part of this is the war stories and embellishments. I can't think of any great story that comes from being Baghdad during the surge, or other similar locations. Thanks again for your comments and insights. Thanks for your service too.
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Suspended Profile
I think that identifying with an era is appropriate, but to say I'm a "what ever" veteran is misleading. Having served is noble enough.
CPT (Join to see)
COL Charles Williams - None taken. Regarding benefits, I agree that there are some questions that I'd wondered regarding how they define combat zone. Considering Bosnia was very unfriendly. ... but not considered a combat area. Ditto for Germany in the 1980s and 1990s by many accounts. ... more so than Kuwait now.
SGM Lonnie Durand Durand - so when someone asks what part of this war I played. ....I played no pay? Stating I was mobilized to Ft McCoy and Camp Shelby as part of OEF is misleading? I think there's a difference between wearing a ball cap staying that you are an OEF veteran and answering to make clear that you are NOT a combat veteran are two distinctions.
v/r,
CPT Butler
SGM Lonnie Durand Durand - so when someone asks what part of this war I played. ....I played no pay? Stating I was mobilized to Ft McCoy and Camp Shelby as part of OEF is misleading? I think there's a difference between wearing a ball cap staying that you are an OEF veteran and answering to make clear that you are NOT a combat veteran are two distinctions.
v/r,
CPT Butler
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The powers that be have already made the clarification. If you got the campaign medal, you are a Whatever Vet. If you didn't get the campaign medal, you are a Whatever Era Vet.
Things like combat action medals designate whether you were in combat or not.
I served during Vietnam, but not IN Vietnam. Didn't get the campaign medal, so I'm a Vietnam Era Vet.
I served off the coast of Beirut in 83. I got the Campaign medal. So I'm a Beirut War Vet. According to Congress and the VFW, if you have that campaign medal you are a combat vet. I participated in NGFS shoots on enemy targets. That in my eye is what makes me a combat vet.
I served in the Persain Gulf before the Iraq War. I felt a lot more in danger there than I did off Beirut. Still wondering why no medal or anything else was issued for that. We were in a war zone, it just wasn't (at that time) our war, even though American sailors died in a missile attack, and another American ship damned near sank after hitting an Iranian mine. Sometime the powers that be do things we don't understand.
Don't get me started on Hondurus.
So far as Air Crew that flew missions over the fighting. Absolutely are combat vets.
Things like combat action medals designate whether you were in combat or not.
I served during Vietnam, but not IN Vietnam. Didn't get the campaign medal, so I'm a Vietnam Era Vet.
I served off the coast of Beirut in 83. I got the Campaign medal. So I'm a Beirut War Vet. According to Congress and the VFW, if you have that campaign medal you are a combat vet. I participated in NGFS shoots on enemy targets. That in my eye is what makes me a combat vet.
I served in the Persain Gulf before the Iraq War. I felt a lot more in danger there than I did off Beirut. Still wondering why no medal or anything else was issued for that. We were in a war zone, it just wasn't (at that time) our war, even though American sailors died in a missile attack, and another American ship damned near sank after hitting an Iranian mine. Sometime the powers that be do things we don't understand.
Don't get me started on Hondurus.
So far as Air Crew that flew missions over the fighting. Absolutely are combat vets.
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So, a question. More from a Vietnam day than now but trust me some things never change. The military had (has) units operating in several locations within Thailand and according to government lore at the Thai's invitation. Regardless if you look at a map of the region you will clearly see some of those locations were air bases for 52's and some for other fighters. THEN there were the places where American soldiers spent 24/7365 listening to not only Charlie but his Asian cousins. With this info air and ground troops were supplied with locations of "shall we say bad guys that might need to meet their maker" Frequently if you ask the right person for an after action report you could obtain the estimate of given KIA on info you had helped provide. Does that make that person any less a true vet? Did they pound the ground? No. Do they have nightmares? Oh hell yes. As for me and my hypothetical situation I promise those "kids" flying drones and blowing up things they can't always clearly see will someday ask the same questions.:/ I am Damn proud of the 4 years and 9 months I voluntarily served my country and to me it is all a moot question. I AM A DAMN VET. Regrets-yep. Would have been nice if just anybody but my family would have said welcome home but even that I mostly understand, at least now.
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COL Charles Williams
SP5 Grover Crail First, thank you for your service. All good points, which make my points seem silly. I think I was really referring to a guy I know who wears a Vietnam Veteran hat, but never served outside of US soil. I believe that is why we have the NDSM, and they developed the Global War on Terrorism Service and Expeditionary Medal, as well the Iraq and Afghanistan Campaign Medals. All have specific AOR and AO requirements. Similar things were done for Drone operators, and other medals that are used in peace and wartime.
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