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Over the weekend at a training conference an NCO giving a class on standards and discipline asked the group to stand up. He then asked for everyone to sit down whose back pockets were buttoned. I was not one of the NCO's who sat as I always keep my left rear pocket unbuttoned and tucked in as this is where my wallet is at. He then attributed this as a lack of discipline.
The new AR 670-1 specifically states in Chapter 3 a.(3) that, "Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped."
Now, obviously this is pretty broad as my ACU's were certainly zipped, and looked professional, but technically were not completely 'buttoned'.
Do you fellow NCO's agree that the failing to button even the rear pockets on the trousers actually demonstrates a lack of discipline? If so, do you then inspect all of your troops to ensure that they are complying with this standard? Are all their buttons in the fly area of the ACU buttoned for example? Are yours? When you wear your ASU's do you button the inside button on the trousers?
I'm not fielding this question to complain about being called out... but instead to see what your thoughts are on the discipline thing.
The new AR 670-1 specifically states in Chapter 3 a.(3) that, "Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped."
Now, obviously this is pretty broad as my ACU's were certainly zipped, and looked professional, but technically were not completely 'buttoned'.
Do you fellow NCO's agree that the failing to button even the rear pockets on the trousers actually demonstrates a lack of discipline? If so, do you then inspect all of your troops to ensure that they are complying with this standard? Are all their buttons in the fly area of the ACU buttoned for example? Are yours? When you wear your ASU's do you button the inside button on the trousers?
I'm not fielding this question to complain about being called out... but instead to see what your thoughts are on the discipline thing.
Uniforms
NCOs
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 86
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I don't think having a back pocket unbuttoned shows a lack of discipline. I do keep mine buttoned as a matter of security for my wallet. I have had my wallet slip out while sitting in certain style seats, so I keep the pocket buttoned.
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I always kept my buttons buttoned. You won't lose your wallet that way even if doesn't have any money in it.
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We were taught early on to button, zip, and snap everything. It has real-world safety implications in the flying business. An unzipped pocket in the cockpit can lead to stuff flying around the cockpit during acrobatic or combat maneuvers that induce zero or negative Gs. Loose stuff in the cockpit can lead to critical malfunctions of components including electrical circuits or ejection seats. We had a student pilot who put the landing gear pins in a pocket, but didn't zip it. During formation maneuvers the pins escaped the pocket and landed along the canopy rail behind his seat. After landing, he opened the cockpit (a standard procedure on hot days) and the pins fell into an engine intake. Destroyed the jet engine. Costly breach of "discipline."
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
That has a real world reason to keep everything buttoned and zipped for sure !
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MSG(P) (Join to see), at OCS not only were all buttons buttoned, but all of our pockets were sewn shut as well. To this day, even after having been retired since MAY98, I still keep all buttons buttoned, zippers zipped and I don't like to carry things in my pockets.
So my personal preference that seems IAW with the AR, is to button the buttons!
So my personal preference that seems IAW with the AR, is to button the buttons!
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One man's indiscipline is another's flexibility. It just depends on the context.
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As I see how everyone has voted I can see why the Army has a discipline problem. Buttons unbuttoned are no big deal.....AR 670-1 says that they are a big deal. Last time I checked that was the law of the land. I guess those speed limit signs are just suggested speeds too, right? The Army, believe it or not, has standards. The problem is we are not enforcing the standards. However, we are quick to complain when we see a brand new PVT fresh out of Basic and AIT coming into their new unit overweight or not knowing why they are suppose to stand at attention for an Officer or parade rest for an NCO. I guess cuffed sleeves are ok too if it's hot? AR 670-1 says they aren't. It does say that you can open your sleeves if it's too hot, but no cuffing. It sucks when you see the people who are supposed to be enforcing the standard violating them. Do these rules seem stupid? Yeah, they kinda do...but rules are rules. If you don't like them, or you feel that they don't apply, then just get out the Army. You volunteered for this. It only makes sense that you abide by the rules.
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That is something that I will leave to NCOs. I do believe that attention to detail is crucial to the mission. If I were there I would have asked what were the five paragraphs of an OPODR or who knows the names of the spouses of your soldiers. Maybe the NCOs there are far beyond that and have tackled every major issue and the buttons of their ACUs is the most serious issue at hand for the NCOs in that unit.
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I button mine, and I am actually OCD about it. I check my pockets every-now-then to make sure their buttoned.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
I'm in the same boat as you SSG. When I had the BDU I would check often but now with this Velcro crap on the ACU it's a no win situation. Stuff is annoying to open trying to be sneaky and loses it's grip. Terrible.
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Holy crap. I can't believe the amount of conversation here over two measley little buttons. If you have been in the Army less than 13 years, raise your hand. All y'all out there with your hands in the air are in for a shock when we go back to the peacetime Army! Those of you who remember the years between the Gulf War and 9/11 will probably agree with me. When we began fighting in two different countries, not to mention all of the smaller deployments in the last 13 years (Philippines, HOA, etc.) we saw standards slip quite a bit on everything from the wear and appearance of the Army uniform to NCOES requirements for promotion. Now that we are slowly moving into post-war years and nobody has deployments to worry about, guess what is going to become important again? That's right kiddies, STANDARDS! Back to monthly ASU inspections, weekly ACU inspections (right before you have to go crawl under a vehicle in the motor pool), and all of the other little joys that made garrison Army life so special. We don't need to kick people out of the Army to downsize. We just have to wait until we are back at pre-2001 standards and young Soldiers will leave the Army in droves! They are not used to it! They will hate it! LOL SMA has already started it with the new tattoo and hair regs. Just sayin'. Might as well get yourself ready.....
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Lt Col (Join to see)
Because it turns out those dress and appearance standards do not actually translate to combat effectiveness?
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SFC Stephen Carden
Actually, there are two ways to think about it. One way is that unneccesary importance placed on dress and appearance standards takes time away from actually training for the mission. Another way is that attention to dress and appearance standards translates to Soldiers looking like Soldiers, then acting like Soldiers, then becoming more professional, then becoming much better at their jobs, then becoming more combat effective. The new SMA thinks in terms of the second example above, and I tend to agree with him. All good basketball players become great when they practice the fundamentals. Soldiers are the same way. Practicing the fundamentals of being a Soldier makes the difference between an effective Soldier and a dirtbag. So, I disagree, respectfully, with your comment, Capt Jason Williams. Standards build discipline, and discipline builds effectiveness.
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