Posted on Apr 3, 2020
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(Update: 14 Jun 2020) - While this story remains in the news (https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/06/19/navy-wont-reinstate-crozier-fires-1-star-over-poor-decision-making.html), we are reminded of what is today!!!
On this Father's Day and Flag Day for 2020 it might serve all of us to think about all the fathers and mothers too who are serving away from home and on whom their fellow soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines and coastguardsmen rely. While many have voiced opinions on many sides of this event, and its implications are not yet fully felt, the point is simply this quote:
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty (aka freedom)"
It does not matter who made the quote often attributed to a particular Founding Father, but with little tangible evidence to verify that attribution; rather, it is the meaning in the words that are much more important!!! In the world of politics, we are reminded, that the mastery of the gymnastic linguistics involved in the defense of an indefensible position is the tangled web woven by the venom of the spiders that need absolute power.
With > 22.5 views, >1.3 K likes and >370 comments as of this date this post has had a lot of play. I want to thank all those the posted. Have a great Father's day, Flag Day and think deeply about the event that will be soon upon us - the 4th of July. Our nation is difficult, but in that difficulty has always been hope. I continue to pray that our nation of men, of women, of black, of white, of so many others learns that our common humanity it more important than our, often contrived differences. We'd be wise to remember that:
ALL people have "...certain unalienable rights..." and "...that among thee are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..." None of which can ever be truly achieved when small minds are willing to act out of fear and ignorance to save only themselves and deny these "...unalienable rights..." to the least among us who are in our care!
Blessing to all....
-------------
(Update: 13 Apr 2020) - Thank you SGT (Join to see) for this "interesting update" regarding the Pentagon's "worries" over CAPT Crozier's actions (https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/pentagon-worries-capt-crozier-s-concern-for-his-sailors-may-be-contagious--3). Humm. So, a Pentagon spokesperson could have actually said. “...This makes us sitting here in the Pentagon look like out-of-touch asses....” Now that is interesting!?!?!?!?!
Oh, I love the phrase "Crozier-20" - funnyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!
But, in all seriousness, if you are going to train officers and senior enlisted leaders that taking care of the troops is the #1 priority when it comes to being resilient, mission focused and combat ready, you should expect - the truth.
But, it is the update (https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/rising-navy-coronavirus-cases-put-heightened-tempo-into-question?loc=similar_main&pos=0&type=qrc) from PO1 William "Chip" Nagel that makes the update from SGT (Join to see) not just funny from Duffelblog, but actually poignant. Humm!
I'd bet good money that the CO has this over his desk in his stateroom: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/Documents/maninarena.htm
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(Update: 09 Apr 2020) - Thank you SSG Robert Mark Odom for this intel - https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/roosevelt-sailor-with-covid-19-found-unresponsive-in-guam.
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Dear RP Family,
By now, the world knows the CO, CAPTAIN B.E. Crozier, of the USS Theodore Rooselvet (CVN-71) has been relieved of command for a letter he wrote dated 30 March 2020 regarding Coronavirus.
CAPT Crozier's letter (https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Exclusive-Captain-of-aircraft-carrier-with-15167883.php) is interesting and reminds me of another CO I once gladly served, CAPT Howick. Capt Howick, I believe, would have taken the same action as Capt Crozier, based on my service with him during an evolution at REFTRA in GITMO just prior to our deploying as part of Desert Shield.
Capt Crozier, stated the obvious impact and outcomes of an uncontrolled disease state on an advanced ship of war. Is that not what a competent war fighter does? So the YES's are:
- Yes, our enemies now know (perhaps have always known) how rapidly they can degrade our at sea war fighting forces with a simple 'invisible bug';
- Yes, I am sure the DoD, especially the US Navy, did not want to reveal this as I am sure it scared the crap out of the CoC;
- Yes, the families of those sailors are scared, but I think those who are honest with themselves are glad their sailors or marines served with this Capt. as much as I was proud to serve a CO like USN Capt. Howick or USMC Col. Doyle in the 1980s.
Perhaps what Capt. Crozier was thinking about was what Sun Tzu was reported to have said: "So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak." His mighty warship was weakening and he knew it. The CoC was apparently not listening, so he took the only course of action that was seemly left to him in order to take care of "his crew - aka his shipmates" and "attempt to maintain mission readiness."
He knew the risk the letter entailed. While he has been relieved, I think he will be asked to retire; and, I am not sure he will be Courts-Marshaled for this "seeming insubordination" as such an act by DoD could be spun in the media, if they chose to, into greater questions that would expose the military's ability to protect our own in times of this kind of crisis. He did not commit a USA LT William Calley or a USN Chief Gallagher type event from their 'personal actions'. If anything, from his letter he has outlined courses of action that could become military wide, if not US Navy, medical doctrine going forward under similar future conditions and provide a better process for OPSEC under such conditions. Even when we get a handle on testing and treatment, there will be other "hidden COVID-19 type" threats. The question should be for the CoC, is how will we now keep our war fighters at sea safer and mission responsive, especially aboard one of the most powerful platforms in our arsenal?
I have been a carrier sailor and I am sure the CMO and Senior PMT along with the entire Medical Department on TR are busting ass. In closing, I remember the singular case of Legionnaires disease we got aboard the USS Coral Sea (CV-43) when to the Med in 1989. The young (20 yo) sailor died about 10 days after arrival on board after his leave. I was a new PMT then, it was interesting times.
Finally, my sister is a DoD Civlian in the ME and she tells me that troops are coughing all over in her particular indoor-based operations. This operation is not mission essential. Apparently, no PPE or social distancing is being accomplished when I last spoke with her 26 Mar (4 days before CAPT Crozier's letter.)
In any event, just sharing some thoughts from an old sea dawg!
Blessing always to the RP family,
Question: Did CAPTAIN Crozier ultimately show "genuine leadership" or "fool-heartiness" by the penning of this letter and transmitting it in the open?
BTW, if you want to understand how sailors and marines feel about those that lead them under difficult circumstances this video might tell you something - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpNT5KUYhTM.
On this Father's Day and Flag Day for 2020 it might serve all of us to think about all the fathers and mothers too who are serving away from home and on whom their fellow soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines and coastguardsmen rely. While many have voiced opinions on many sides of this event, and its implications are not yet fully felt, the point is simply this quote:
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty (aka freedom)"
It does not matter who made the quote often attributed to a particular Founding Father, but with little tangible evidence to verify that attribution; rather, it is the meaning in the words that are much more important!!! In the world of politics, we are reminded, that the mastery of the gymnastic linguistics involved in the defense of an indefensible position is the tangled web woven by the venom of the spiders that need absolute power.
With > 22.5 views, >1.3 K likes and >370 comments as of this date this post has had a lot of play. I want to thank all those the posted. Have a great Father's day, Flag Day and think deeply about the event that will be soon upon us - the 4th of July. Our nation is difficult, but in that difficulty has always been hope. I continue to pray that our nation of men, of women, of black, of white, of so many others learns that our common humanity it more important than our, often contrived differences. We'd be wise to remember that:
ALL people have "...certain unalienable rights..." and "...that among thee are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..." None of which can ever be truly achieved when small minds are willing to act out of fear and ignorance to save only themselves and deny these "...unalienable rights..." to the least among us who are in our care!
Blessing to all....
-------------
(Update: 13 Apr 2020) - Thank you SGT (Join to see) for this "interesting update" regarding the Pentagon's "worries" over CAPT Crozier's actions (https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/pentagon-worries-capt-crozier-s-concern-for-his-sailors-may-be-contagious--3). Humm. So, a Pentagon spokesperson could have actually said. “...This makes us sitting here in the Pentagon look like out-of-touch asses....” Now that is interesting!?!?!?!?!
Oh, I love the phrase "Crozier-20" - funnyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!
But, in all seriousness, if you are going to train officers and senior enlisted leaders that taking care of the troops is the #1 priority when it comes to being resilient, mission focused and combat ready, you should expect - the truth.
But, it is the update (https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/rising-navy-coronavirus-cases-put-heightened-tempo-into-question?loc=similar_main&pos=0&type=qrc) from PO1 William "Chip" Nagel that makes the update from SGT (Join to see) not just funny from Duffelblog, but actually poignant. Humm!
I'd bet good money that the CO has this over his desk in his stateroom: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/Documents/maninarena.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------
(Update: 09 Apr 2020) - Thank you SSG Robert Mark Odom for this intel - https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/roosevelt-sailor-with-covid-19-found-unresponsive-in-guam.
-------------------------------------------------
Dear RP Family,
By now, the world knows the CO, CAPTAIN B.E. Crozier, of the USS Theodore Rooselvet (CVN-71) has been relieved of command for a letter he wrote dated 30 March 2020 regarding Coronavirus.
CAPT Crozier's letter (https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Exclusive-Captain-of-aircraft-carrier-with-15167883.php) is interesting and reminds me of another CO I once gladly served, CAPT Howick. Capt Howick, I believe, would have taken the same action as Capt Crozier, based on my service with him during an evolution at REFTRA in GITMO just prior to our deploying as part of Desert Shield.
Capt Crozier, stated the obvious impact and outcomes of an uncontrolled disease state on an advanced ship of war. Is that not what a competent war fighter does? So the YES's are:
- Yes, our enemies now know (perhaps have always known) how rapidly they can degrade our at sea war fighting forces with a simple 'invisible bug';
- Yes, I am sure the DoD, especially the US Navy, did not want to reveal this as I am sure it scared the crap out of the CoC;
- Yes, the families of those sailors are scared, but I think those who are honest with themselves are glad their sailors or marines served with this Capt. as much as I was proud to serve a CO like USN Capt. Howick or USMC Col. Doyle in the 1980s.
Perhaps what Capt. Crozier was thinking about was what Sun Tzu was reported to have said: "So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak." His mighty warship was weakening and he knew it. The CoC was apparently not listening, so he took the only course of action that was seemly left to him in order to take care of "his crew - aka his shipmates" and "attempt to maintain mission readiness."
He knew the risk the letter entailed. While he has been relieved, I think he will be asked to retire; and, I am not sure he will be Courts-Marshaled for this "seeming insubordination" as such an act by DoD could be spun in the media, if they chose to, into greater questions that would expose the military's ability to protect our own in times of this kind of crisis. He did not commit a USA LT William Calley or a USN Chief Gallagher type event from their 'personal actions'. If anything, from his letter he has outlined courses of action that could become military wide, if not US Navy, medical doctrine going forward under similar future conditions and provide a better process for OPSEC under such conditions. Even when we get a handle on testing and treatment, there will be other "hidden COVID-19 type" threats. The question should be for the CoC, is how will we now keep our war fighters at sea safer and mission responsive, especially aboard one of the most powerful platforms in our arsenal?
I have been a carrier sailor and I am sure the CMO and Senior PMT along with the entire Medical Department on TR are busting ass. In closing, I remember the singular case of Legionnaires disease we got aboard the USS Coral Sea (CV-43) when to the Med in 1989. The young (20 yo) sailor died about 10 days after arrival on board after his leave. I was a new PMT then, it was interesting times.
Finally, my sister is a DoD Civlian in the ME and she tells me that troops are coughing all over in her particular indoor-based operations. This operation is not mission essential. Apparently, no PPE or social distancing is being accomplished when I last spoke with her 26 Mar (4 days before CAPT Crozier's letter.)
In any event, just sharing some thoughts from an old sea dawg!
Blessing always to the RP family,
Question: Did CAPTAIN Crozier ultimately show "genuine leadership" or "fool-heartiness" by the penning of this letter and transmitting it in the open?
BTW, if you want to understand how sailors and marines feel about those that lead them under difficult circumstances this video might tell you something - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpNT5KUYhTM.
CAPT
Mission
Integrity
Political Correctness
Medical
Edited 4 y ago
Posted 4 y ago
Responses: 86
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CPO Nate S. Sometimes leaders have to do what they think is right and take that risk of losing their job by standing up for they think is right. There are regulations to be followed and OPSEC to be followed. I believe he could have accomplished the same thing by going through his direct Chain of Command, and then bypassing them using the Open Door Policy within his Chain of Command, if he wasn't satisified with the outcome or response. Just my opinion as a former Brigade Commander!
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SPC Chris Ison
Some conservative commentators seized on President Barack Obama's deep bow to Japan's Emperor Akihito over the weekend, accusing the U.S. commander in chief ...
Maj Wayne Crist - You have no fucking understanding of Japanese culture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwqwC-k4dQk
The state department is cognizant of how a leader should greet another leader, and when you are in ROME you do as the ROMANS do.
When in doubt, salute.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwqwC-k4dQk
The state department is cognizant of how a leader should greet another leader, and when you are in ROME you do as the ROMANS do.
When in doubt, salute.
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Maj Wayne Crist
Ah married to an Asian and have spent a get deal of time living in Asia. Very Familiar with Japanese and Korean culture. Please curb your vulgar language it s not appreciated or appropriate. You are clearly out of your depth.
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SPC Chris Ison
Maj Wayne Crist - Ah did the men man hurt your feelings with bad words?
Man the fuck up.
Did you marry a Japanese National? Cause a Filipino is NOT the same culture.
So funny that bowing before the Japanese emperor is so distasteful; But NONE of what Trump has done ruffles your feathers? I guess it is okay to insult people as long as the "words" are not "colorful"?
No, I know it is because you are racist and misogynistic; Probably why you couldn't marry an American woman, she would be too strong for you to control.
Man the fuck up.
Did you marry a Japanese National? Cause a Filipino is NOT the same culture.
So funny that bowing before the Japanese emperor is so distasteful; But NONE of what Trump has done ruffles your feathers? I guess it is okay to insult people as long as the "words" are not "colorful"?
No, I know it is because you are racist and misogynistic; Probably why you couldn't marry an American woman, she would be too strong for you to control.
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Maj Wayne Crist
SPC Chris Ison - No I just find vulgar language distasteful. And what would give you the idea married a Filipino? I have lived in the far east and traveled it extensively. Every President we have had has done things that "ruffled my feathers". By your own comments you nothing about Asian women are in fact being very racist. So Chris take a hike.
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I think he knew he would get fired for the letter, but still sent the letter IOT get his Sailors the help they need. One sign of a good/great leader (IMHO) is the willingness to rock the boat and/or take those sabot rounds for your people. I am not going to fault him for doing what he felt was right. Especially for his people. Yea, could he have gone a different route? Probably. But that is hindsight. If his people get the help they need, then it's a WIN for the Captain....regardless of him getting fired.
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Sgt Leonard Lamb
If you refuse an order by a superior you better have a damn good reason. If you go out of the chain of command you better have a damn good reason. I believe he had a damn good reason.
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Sgt Neil Foster
SP6 Peter Kreutzfeldt - The disease ultimately ended up infecting more than 25% of the crew... The numbers would have been over 70% if he didn't take drastic action. What do you think would have happened then? How do you propose he should have dealt with it when CoC was dragging their feet as the infections increased exponentially? Do you realize that there were medical doctors aboard the ship that were most likely presenting a very grim picture of what would happen
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Sgt Neil Foster
SGM Robert Murray - You need to do a bit more research before making accusations..
Right from the beginning the Navy saud that there was NO INDICATION that CAPT Crozier never went public... One of the NAVY LEADERS WHO RECEIVED THE MESSAGE LEAKED IT TO THE PRESS.
While your statement that a carrier has support vessels is correct, you are completely ignoring the fact that quarantining hundreds of sick sailors aboard a ship is almost impossible.
You are implying that the Captain just 'decided on his own' to do what he did. You are completely ignoring the fact that an aircraft has MEDICAL DOCTORS aboard who who know one hell of a lot more than you about communicable diseases. and the danger they pose the ship's crew. Those MEDICAL DOCTORS were tracking the outbreak as it was spreading EXPONENTIALLY throughout the ship, and were advising the Captain on the status.
When the Captain first notified CoC there were 26 sailors infected. That number increased almost tenfold by the time the Captain's letter was leaked to the press. Ultimately more than 26% of the crew (1,273 sailors) was infected. That number would have been SIGNIFICANTLY higher had drastic action not been taken
The ship's medical officers knew that at the rate the virus was spreading the number of infected sailors would have completely overwhelmed the medical facilities aboard the ship.
You completely ignored the fact that a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier requires a large, trained crew to operate. The loss of a large percentage of crew members posed to the ship the fleet if there were not enough sailors to safely run the ship. Do you think they could just take an able bodied seaman from another ship and tell him or her to run the nuclear reactor because the regular crew is too sick to do so?
His Chain of Command was dragging their feet... and ended up looking pretty stupid for doing so
Right from the beginning the Navy saud that there was NO INDICATION that CAPT Crozier never went public... One of the NAVY LEADERS WHO RECEIVED THE MESSAGE LEAKED IT TO THE PRESS.
While your statement that a carrier has support vessels is correct, you are completely ignoring the fact that quarantining hundreds of sick sailors aboard a ship is almost impossible.
You are implying that the Captain just 'decided on his own' to do what he did. You are completely ignoring the fact that an aircraft has MEDICAL DOCTORS aboard who who know one hell of a lot more than you about communicable diseases. and the danger they pose the ship's crew. Those MEDICAL DOCTORS were tracking the outbreak as it was spreading EXPONENTIALLY throughout the ship, and were advising the Captain on the status.
When the Captain first notified CoC there were 26 sailors infected. That number increased almost tenfold by the time the Captain's letter was leaked to the press. Ultimately more than 26% of the crew (1,273 sailors) was infected. That number would have been SIGNIFICANTLY higher had drastic action not been taken
The ship's medical officers knew that at the rate the virus was spreading the number of infected sailors would have completely overwhelmed the medical facilities aboard the ship.
You completely ignored the fact that a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier requires a large, trained crew to operate. The loss of a large percentage of crew members posed to the ship the fleet if there were not enough sailors to safely run the ship. Do you think they could just take an able bodied seaman from another ship and tell him or her to run the nuclear reactor because the regular crew is too sick to do so?
His Chain of Command was dragging their feet... and ended up looking pretty stupid for doing so
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SGM Robert Murray
Sgt Neil Foster - Try again. You wrote a lot, but said very little. Shallow response. Do more research, please?
That investigation, released Friday, faulted Crozier for how he responded to the outbreak onboard his ship and led Gilday to believe Crozier’s initial firing was justified. He's toast.
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/06/19/capt-crozier-wont-be-reinstated-as-the-commander-of-the-carrier-theodore-roosevelt/
That investigation, released Friday, faulted Crozier for how he responded to the outbreak onboard his ship and led Gilday to believe Crozier’s initial firing was justified. He's toast.
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/06/19/capt-crozier-wont-be-reinstated-as-the-commander-of-the-carrier-theodore-roosevelt/
Capt. Crozier won’t be reinstated as the commander of the carrier Theodore Roosevelt
The decision came after a deeper probe into how Crozier handled a highly publicized COVID-19 outbreak on the ship.
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I'm still at the "Yes and No" stage.
Making the letter public was definitely foolhardy. This is a matter to be discussed and decided confidentially within the chain of command. However, it was not foolhardy if the chain of command was not responsive.
Taking the ship into port without authorization was definitely foolhardy. This action has most likely encouraged Chinese military adventurism in the region. However, it was not foolhardy if the chain of command was not responsive.
Ultimately, great authority comes with great responsibility. All military commanders must be prepared to face the consequences of their decisions. Sometimes those decisions are very hard, such as ordering subordinates to go in harms way. That is the business of the military. No, no one should be forced to take unnecessary risks, however, I do not have sufficient information to determine if remaining on station was necessary or unnecessary. To be fair, I am inclined to say it was a necessity and thus, the risk to the crew was a necessity. War is as much about maneuver as it is about shooting and China has been maneuvering for strategic advantage in that region, especially regarding freedom of navigation.
Making the letter public was definitely foolhardy. This is a matter to be discussed and decided confidentially within the chain of command. However, it was not foolhardy if the chain of command was not responsive.
Taking the ship into port without authorization was definitely foolhardy. This action has most likely encouraged Chinese military adventurism in the region. However, it was not foolhardy if the chain of command was not responsive.
Ultimately, great authority comes with great responsibility. All military commanders must be prepared to face the consequences of their decisions. Sometimes those decisions are very hard, such as ordering subordinates to go in harms way. That is the business of the military. No, no one should be forced to take unnecessary risks, however, I do not have sufficient information to determine if remaining on station was necessary or unnecessary. To be fair, I am inclined to say it was a necessity and thus, the risk to the crew was a necessity. War is as much about maneuver as it is about shooting and China has been maneuvering for strategic advantage in that region, especially regarding freedom of navigation.
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LCDR Mike Morrissey
MSgt Steve Sweeney - Goodness Master Sergeant, You REALLY don't get it? I guess you don't comprehend the meanings of "command at sea" and "strategic asset" and "operational readiness reporting". BTW the Navy Times publishes a "status" but it certainly isn't "THE STATUS" of every carrier.` As to classified information, you better bone up on the DOD classification standards. And yes, I did read the letter's contents.
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MSgt Steve Sweeney
LCDR Mike Morrissey - I will take it from your dancing around the issue and not pointing out a single classified statement, or any classification standard that was violated, from the letter that you claim to have read, that you are ceding the argument.
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LCDR Mike Morrissey
MSgt Steve Sweeney - Well now DOD INST 5200.1, and 5200.45;
Executive order 12958 and 13526 1.2 and 1.4, UCMJ Art 92 (and possibly 90). Simply put-revelation of operational capability as described in para 1 and 2 of his communication neither of which were classified as required and was disseminated without restriction/protection and therefore also available to foreign entities.
Executive order 12958 and 13526 1.2 and 1.4, UCMJ Art 92 (and possibly 90). Simply put-revelation of operational capability as described in para 1 and 2 of his communication neither of which were classified as required and was disseminated without restriction/protection and therefore also available to foreign entities.
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Never, never, never should have gone public.
Never, never, never should have stopped hammering home that his command was in serious trouble.
Never, never, never should have stopped hammering home that his command was in serious trouble.
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SGT (Join to see)
Maj John Bell - why should his assessment of unclassified information gone out over a classified network? Additionally, despite Modly’s early lies, there is no indication that Crozier sent the memo to anyone other than a few relevant Admirals and Captains.
(*personal assessment: with all the lies about and initial attacks on Crozier, I have a feeling that Modly or someone in his circle leaked the memo. And then tried to hang Crozier out to dry. But unless the media outlet reveals its’ source, we’ll likely never know).
I appreciate your personal anecdote. Similar to naval and marine officers, Noncommissioned officers in the Army don’t have the luxury of ‘not my fault’.
Some should have told the Navy brass about the mentality. Because ultimately, Crozier was fired because after his letter became public, the question became, ‘who’s to blame?” And Modly and his people couldn’t stand the idea of the answer being, “us”. So rather than just giving crozier a slap on the wrist for the letter and then go about fixing the problem, he dropped the hammer on Crozier.
And he managed to get himself fired, and really made the Navy look ridiculous in doing so.
The entire situation was a sh*tshow.
(*personal assessment: with all the lies about and initial attacks on Crozier, I have a feeling that Modly or someone in his circle leaked the memo. And then tried to hang Crozier out to dry. But unless the media outlet reveals its’ source, we’ll likely never know).
I appreciate your personal anecdote. Similar to naval and marine officers, Noncommissioned officers in the Army don’t have the luxury of ‘not my fault’.
Some should have told the Navy brass about the mentality. Because ultimately, Crozier was fired because after his letter became public, the question became, ‘who’s to blame?” And Modly and his people couldn’t stand the idea of the answer being, “us”. So rather than just giving crozier a slap on the wrist for the letter and then go about fixing the problem, he dropped the hammer on Crozier.
And he managed to get himself fired, and really made the Navy look ridiculous in doing so.
The entire situation was a sh*tshow.
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Maj John Bell
SGT (Join to see) - I don't know how many different to say it. The CO's negative assessment doesn't belong in public. I think we just have to agree to disagree.
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SGT (Join to see)
Maj John Bell - I don’t know how many different ways to say it. There is no evidence that the CO released his negative assessment to the public.
Further, Navy senior leadership was dishonest about the situation from the outset. That’s why I trust their word a bit less. Which is one of the reasons it’s more logical to conclude that his negative assessment was actually made public by them, not the CO.
Further, Navy senior leadership was dishonest about the situation from the outset. That’s why I trust their word a bit less. Which is one of the reasons it’s more logical to conclude that his negative assessment was actually made public by them, not the CO.
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Maj Wayne Crist
Just a note. Just how is Public Affairs supposed to be out in front of this? This lives up to the public affairs slogan "First to Go - Last to Know".
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Let's not focus on the bleeding heart stuff. Focus on the mental processes of the Skipper. That's what causes loss of confidence. He chose to inflict great Intel, Public Affairs, you name it damage. If he didn't know what he was doing, then that's worse. The result is the same but with him not around. I've chewed on Flag butt for getting mission without force protection and other things of emergent nature. But I always kept it private. No spilled Intel, no PAO bust, no other damage control. This Skipper lost his job because he couldn't separate the crisis from communications or implications of outcomes. People who go into Martyr Mode are ticking time bombs. I've been around a number of these types of command tosses as they'd cycle through our Transient Personnel Unit on their way to desk flying or CIVPAC. The one that really scared me was the ex Trident Skipper who couldn't understand why "CO of a nuclear missile submarine; ABLE TO DESTROY CITIES" wasn't the best way to convey a more sane impression on his resume. The balance I struck was focused on making sure I brought my people home alive while keeping Flags inside the Stupid Box.
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1SG Billye Jackson
I on a lot of Occasions have had to make a Choice between Mission and Welfare of my People, at which I always feel back on Mission First and People Always. I Have Raised Hell with COC on Meny Occasions as to what some Dumb Ass Mission would effect my Troops, I Won some and Lost Some but always went with Mission First, when COC wouldn't heir me and Made it as Easy on my People as Possible. Put I have Never went out of the COC Never! I have gone over the Head of the Next Person in the COC But NEVER out side of It.
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If you air linen (dirty or not) publically, you run the risk of senior leadership not reacting well.
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SGM Robert Murray
SFC Michael D. - You're right. Had you not lead with the numbers, your BLUF would have had more impact!
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PO3 (Join to see)
SFC Michael D. - How is it that I read your example as an example and not facts,,,, yet some have no idea how to have a conversation?
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His actions were out of concern for saving lives of his crew. He likely requested official support from chain-of-command, but may have been rejected due to politics or bureaucracy.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
Some great comments from everyone, but politics has nothing to do with it. We are in peacetime in a peacetime Navy. Things don't move fast in peacetime. He knew this. Or should have by this time in his career. Yes, he had sick crew. Okay - is he the only ship with sick crew in the entire Navy? If so, then yes - blast your superior.
But at all times -
Blast your superior privately. You go public with anything you're getting your ass handed to you. I don't care if its his criticism of the potato salad contest winner the ship had a week ago, you - THE CAPTAIN - cannot talk about anything on a non-secure channel. That is why they pulled his keys and took the T-Bird away.
But at all times -
Blast your superior privately. You go public with anything you're getting your ass handed to you. I don't care if its his criticism of the potato salad contest winner the ship had a week ago, you - THE CAPTAIN - cannot talk about anything on a non-secure channel. That is why they pulled his keys and took the T-Bird away.
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PO3 (Join to see)
PO3 Donald Murphy - Agreed,, If your the (Captain of an Aircraft Carrier). Your not stupid enough to jump the Chain of Command unless you did it INTENTIONALLY.
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SSG Bob Teachout
PO3 Donald Murphy - - so how many other US Navy ships have had that many virus patients?
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Sgt Neil Foster
PO3 Donald Murphy - He didn't go public. He sent the message to other Naval officers, mostly in his CoC. ONE OF THOSE OFFICERS LEAKED THE MESSAGE
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I personally think the navy should STFU. The CPT identified a threat to his ship and his crew. He took casualties and wanted to save lives. The Navy is coming across that seamen are expendable and deaths are acceptable in non combat. As a commander should I be concerned about casualty and deaths? Do I want my kids to join an organization like that?
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MAJ Ken Landgren
My point is the whole thing is a black eye for everyone.However, the more the navy pursues this, the worse they will look. Look at what Modly did. Stupid beyond reason. 1SG Billye Jackson
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CW4 (Join to see)
MAJ Ken Landgren Moldy was spot on, a Captain of a CVN should be able to see the Strategic effect of his tactical decision. They have classified systems that would of been more appropriate.
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MAJ Ken Landgren
CW4 (Join to see) - Modly was not spot on when he visited the crew and talked caustically about the fired skipper.
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CW4 (Join to see)
I respectfully disagree, yes he did talk caustically about the crews former commander his remarks where correct.
“If he didn't think, in my opinion, that this information wasn't going to get out into the public, in this day and information age that we live in, then he was either A, too naive, or too stupid to be a commanding officer of a ship like this,”
The skipper used a unclassified network to mass disseminate a letter about readiness issue on 1 of our 11 National Strategic assets. This is after the DOD orders military bases to STOP publicly reporting coronavirus numbers. While Moldy's comments where harsh, and made to a crew that respected their skipper, they were spot on. The very public nature of a CVN being pulled off of a patrol in the Pacific will have strategic effects.
Now if he had made several request for help on classified systems and was ignored, he and his crew were failed by the Navy leadership.
“If he didn't think, in my opinion, that this information wasn't going to get out into the public, in this day and information age that we live in, then he was either A, too naive, or too stupid to be a commanding officer of a ship like this,”
The skipper used a unclassified network to mass disseminate a letter about readiness issue on 1 of our 11 National Strategic assets. This is after the DOD orders military bases to STOP publicly reporting coronavirus numbers. While Moldy's comments where harsh, and made to a crew that respected their skipper, they were spot on. The very public nature of a CVN being pulled off of a patrol in the Pacific will have strategic effects.
Now if he had made several request for help on classified systems and was ignored, he and his crew were failed by the Navy leadership.
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Both ways, taking care of your people- but higher command does not take bad news well, and maybe He went to far- its an OPSEC thing to not give out numbers- his showed the CV was Combat Ineffective.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
Yup - pretty much IT in a nutshell. Told everyone who cared to listen that he had sick crew. Not to be snarky but he has the keys to a carrier. With planes. He couldn't have flown the really sick off?
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SGT (Join to see)
PO3 Donald Murphy - sailors actually were being flown off before the TR reached Guam.
However, despite the 90 or so aircraft on the TR, a mass evacuation using those planes wasn’t particularly feasible.
First, a good portion of those aircraft aren’t really suited for transporting people. Second, the ship was still at sea. What if they encountered a situation where they actually needed all their planes?
However, despite the 90 or so aircraft on the TR, a mass evacuation using those planes wasn’t particularly feasible.
First, a good portion of those aircraft aren’t really suited for transporting people. Second, the ship was still at sea. What if they encountered a situation where they actually needed all their planes?
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SGM David Best
SGT Dave Tracy - Dave, I stated that earlier. The Sec Nav complimented the guy but for this one lapse. I don't think he had any bad motivations and I'm going to fall on my sword all day long for supporting the guy taking care of his people. This was not the right way and he has endangered many other lives. What resources did he have at his direct disposal before it came to this? That is a fair question. Did he just not think the Navy was moving fast enough? We all would like to know what he did to mitigate the circumstances of the situation. But, none of this should be in the public eye and I'll stop there.
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SGT Dave Tracy
SGM David Best absolutely it's a fair question--maybe one of the most important--dont know if we'll get an answer. And I would absolutely agree this would have been much better handled by the Navy without being made the public spectacle it's become. Cats out of the bag now though.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
SGT Dave Tracy Not so much an argument just stating that the environment he lives in is one that some people find strange.
I don’t agree that a 30 year seasoned veteran should have his career ended because a mistake was made which caused a collision while the captain was asleep.
But...that is known as “the burden of command” and Naval officers have lived under that for decades. We don’t have to agree with it but when he agreed to wear the Command Pin, that kinda says that he does agree with it. It doesn’t make him a bad guy but the rules of his game are the rules of his game.
I don’t agree that a 30 year seasoned veteran should have his career ended because a mistake was made which caused a collision while the captain was asleep.
But...that is known as “the burden of command” and Naval officers have lived under that for decades. We don’t have to agree with it but when he agreed to wear the Command Pin, that kinda says that he does agree with it. It doesn’t make him a bad guy but the rules of his game are the rules of his game.
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SFC (Join to see)
To me, the fact that the former acting secretary has already resigned (and his resignation was accepted) for his disgraceful speech following the commander's firing speaks volumes, and explains it somewhat in my view - that's all I'll say as an uninformed person.
Warrior's Forever!
-Ed Boles
Warrior's Forever!
-Ed Boles
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