Posted on Oct 12, 2016
We've seen questions about Mustangs, ROTCs & Ring Knockers. Should NCOs be allowed to fill officers' command billets?
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I 've seen MANY NCOs more capable than officers.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 16
I think that's why there is always a senior NCO close the Officers and especially the New and younger officers to head them in the right direction and help with command decisions...
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Sgt Wayne Wood
Yes! Always! But why not eliminate the middle man? With your background i'm certain you have the knowledge, experience, and motivation to pull it off!
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MAJ (Join to see)
There are two valid reasons for the current system, one is because it's a two man job, by having the NCO's only doing it there isn't a backup system when things go bad. a PSG has a very important role, if he is only doing what a LT does there isn't anyone readily available to fix the damage. Casualty Collection Points, Beans and Bullets, you'd have a logistical nightmare by "eliminating the middle man" because you don't eliminate the middle you eliminate the PSG. Secondly Officer development. You only get one lifetime, while you would get much better company commanders using experienced NCO's there isn't any time left in your career for Field Grade development. Even if it is hard to see from your perspective Major's run the Divisions and Brigades. The tactical battles companies fight are won or lost by the division and brigade operations. The army fights by logistics not tactics without junior officer positions those majors wouldn't have clue how to effectively support a company. A good company battle is a 3 vs 1 fight, bad BDE operations are a 1 vs 1 fight which no one wants to be in. My advice spend some time at Battalion or BDE staff when you hit senior E6 or junior E7. You'll hate it but you'll learn a lot.
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Personally, I don't see why not, but I think it'd have to be a case by case basis. I've worked directly for officers before and you do get a feel for how things run. Now I'm not going to toot my own horn and say I could easily replace my officers because I've had some pretty good officers. But if they were needed elsewhere, like any NCO, I'd take charge and carry out the plan of the day.
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As an E5, I PCS'd to A Signal Bn in Germany and was put into a BN S2 NCO position. A year later the slotted Major PCS'd and was not replaced for the remainder of my 3 year tour. Instead I was given an E4 admin clerk.
So while not slotted into the officer position, I had all the duties and responsibilities of that position and was accountable for all normal S2 briefings and products both in garrison and in the field. This was even to the point where I had to go to Division meetings/briefings that my BN CDR couldn't because of his lack of appropriate security access.
I'm sure that my experience cant be totally unique. So maybe there should be instances where this is allowed, if it isn't.
So while not slotted into the officer position, I had all the duties and responsibilities of that position and was accountable for all normal S2 briefings and products both in garrison and in the field. This was even to the point where I had to go to Division meetings/briefings that my BN CDR couldn't because of his lack of appropriate security access.
I'm sure that my experience cant be totally unique. So maybe there should be instances where this is allowed, if it isn't.
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it happens in a limited way.
at one time i had more PL time as a specialty PL in 501st PIR AT platoon then any other officer..and no i was not doing duties of both PSG and PL... I had a PSG as well.
In 2010 I had a MSG Select that was a PL, he had an SFC that was his PSG
at one time i had more PL time as a specialty PL in 501st PIR AT platoon then any other officer..and no i was not doing duties of both PSG and PL... I had a PSG as well.
In 2010 I had a MSG Select that was a PL, he had an SFC that was his PSG
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I had a Drill Sergeant in basic training at Fort Jackson, SC in 1972 that had one arm. He lost his arm during combat operations while in Viet Nam while leading his platoon after the Platoon Leader was killer in action. He functions as the platoon leader until he was wounded and did a successful job. This example shows that a senior NCO can and does fill critical leadership roles when the need arises. But, as stated in other comments; a senior NCO is always paired with a junior commissioned officer to mentor the junior officer. This relationship sets the stage for the officer's career.
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Staff billets...sure. Command billets? I would say no except for extraordinary circumstances such as field promotions in wartime.
Personally, I held two officer billets during my USAF career. The first one was the 10th CSG Executive Officer, a Lt Col slot, at RAF Alconbury UK. When I asked my boss why he selected me over an officer, he told me that I was far more capable (for this position) than any Major/Lt Col on the station. The second time, I replaced my boss as the Chief of Logistics, a Major slot, at the 3569th USAF Recruiting Squadron when he was relieved of duty a few weeks after I arrived at the unit. I found out later I had been selected for this assignment specifically to be his replacement when they fired him.
So, while a NCO may succeed or even thrive in a staff officer billet, I believe the command environment is a completely different animal..essentially a commander is responsible for everything the unit and/or it's members does or does not do while under his/her command. While I don't have any specific information to support this, I also believe there are likely many legal hurdles for enlisted folks to occupy an officer commander slot. Can anyone who actually knows comment on this assumption? (Note: I already know all the 'assume' wisdom...you don't have to go there).
Personally, I held two officer billets during my USAF career. The first one was the 10th CSG Executive Officer, a Lt Col slot, at RAF Alconbury UK. When I asked my boss why he selected me over an officer, he told me that I was far more capable (for this position) than any Major/Lt Col on the station. The second time, I replaced my boss as the Chief of Logistics, a Major slot, at the 3569th USAF Recruiting Squadron when he was relieved of duty a few weeks after I arrived at the unit. I found out later I had been selected for this assignment specifically to be his replacement when they fired him.
So, while a NCO may succeed or even thrive in a staff officer billet, I believe the command environment is a completely different animal..essentially a commander is responsible for everything the unit and/or it's members does or does not do while under his/her command. While I don't have any specific information to support this, I also believe there are likely many legal hurdles for enlisted folks to occupy an officer commander slot. Can anyone who actually knows comment on this assumption? (Note: I already know all the 'assume' wisdom...you don't have to go there).
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Sgt Wayne Wood
Can't speak for your experience, but USMC NCOs are responsible as well if a prive steps in it... NCOs *AND* Officers do the carpet dance. A bad fitness report ruins both careers. Problem is, if your Officer screws the pooch, it ALSO reflects on the NCOs leadership... even if he advised the Officer against some action... they say sh*t rolls downhill, but the non-rates shovel it back up... NCOs caught in the middle.
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MSgt Richard Rountree
Agreed, the USMC and the USAF have vastly different cultures. For the most part, I haven't seen a similar scenario while I was active duty USAF.
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Sgt Wayne Wood
USMC & USAF different? say it ain't so! But at any rate, you do make a case BOTH ways. you DID hold a command slot.
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Maj John Bell
Sgt Wayne Wood MSgt Richard Rountree - I remember an ass chewing I got the third week of leading my rifle platoon. One of my LCpl's wrote three bad checks on base. Thank God I knew enough to not say "...its not my fault he can't balance a checkbook." I'd have spent the rest of my tour as the officer in charge of soccer balls at MWR.
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Careful Sgt Wayne Wood!! Someone might get the idea we don't need all those commissioned officers after all!! lol
But yes, in certain limited circumstances, I think a seasoned E-7/8/9 could fill the role normally occupied by a 1LT or young Captain. That would certainly be dependent on the individual Non-Comm having demonstrated an ability to effectively execute the responsibilities expected of him/her. I know the Coast Guard has a CPO in charge of small stations. It works very well for them and I don't see why other branches couldn't adapt and be effective as well.
But yes, in certain limited circumstances, I think a seasoned E-7/8/9 could fill the role normally occupied by a 1LT or young Captain. That would certainly be dependent on the individual Non-Comm having demonstrated an ability to effectively execute the responsibilities expected of him/her. I know the Coast Guard has a CPO in charge of small stations. It works very well for them and I don't see why other branches couldn't adapt and be effective as well.
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Navy and CG both have senior enlisted filling command billets on small craft.
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There's A LOT of "experience" difference that happens in those first 4+ years.
Although the base line education has probably gotten a lot closer, it's not the same for a 18-20 year old LCpl-Cpl Squad Leader as a 24 year old Plt CMDR (College/OCS/TBS). Sure the Enlisted guy might be more "tactically proficient" but that LT has exponentially more background "administratively," and that is going to be HUGE in a Command Billet.
Probably the hardest part of going from E5-E6 in the Marines is learning all that Admin that you didn't deal with those first 8-12 years, and hadn't touched since HS. Skills ignored are skills lost. Officers use those skills "daily." It's likely not as bad as it used to be (I'm 90s era), but I literally had to teach my SNCOIC how to use email when he transferred to us. Great guy, super proficient "within his field" (Arty), but he would have flailed in a command billet.
I was pretty solid, but without OCS/TBS and probably another year of college at that point I wouldn't have been ready (I was in zone for SSgt when I got out). I would have been okay to fill in as a Staff Officer (did on multiple occasions), but not in a command slot. Just didn't have the background.
Although the base line education has probably gotten a lot closer, it's not the same for a 18-20 year old LCpl-Cpl Squad Leader as a 24 year old Plt CMDR (College/OCS/TBS). Sure the Enlisted guy might be more "tactically proficient" but that LT has exponentially more background "administratively," and that is going to be HUGE in a Command Billet.
Probably the hardest part of going from E5-E6 in the Marines is learning all that Admin that you didn't deal with those first 8-12 years, and hadn't touched since HS. Skills ignored are skills lost. Officers use those skills "daily." It's likely not as bad as it used to be (I'm 90s era), but I literally had to teach my SNCOIC how to use email when he transferred to us. Great guy, super proficient "within his field" (Arty), but he would have flailed in a command billet.
I was pretty solid, but without OCS/TBS and probably another year of college at that point I wouldn't have been ready (I was in zone for SSgt when I got out). I would have been okay to fill in as a Staff Officer (did on multiple occasions), but not in a command slot. Just didn't have the background.
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Sgt Wayne Wood
I'm from the '70's era... not a ton of difference between a "sharp" sergeant and an average 1st Lt... nuggets are the same everywhere. You need to compare apples & apples. Why did you compare a lcpl with an Lt? Compare a Sgt with an Lt if you want to be fair. A good Gunny is worth his weight in gold. A MasterSgt is even better. Do not denigrate the E-5 through E-8 ranks they are capable of much more than you give credit.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Wayne Wood - Because they are both "entry level." As you said, apples & apples.
A GySgt/MSgt is not comparable to a Lt. They just aren't. We're talking folks with 12-16 years of gun time. We promote Lt's to Capt around 5~ which is about the same amount of time as we do for Sgts (about 1/2 as a new SSgt). You want someone comparable to a Gunny+, you're looking at a Maj-Col.
I'm not discounting that a Good Gunny+ is worth is weight in gold, but we've got A LOT of investment in them. But it's a different kind of investment. The knowledge base between a SgtMaj and a Col is beyond compare. They're just trained differently from the ground up. It's like comparing pickup trucks to station wagons.
A GySgt/MSgt is not comparable to a Lt. They just aren't. We're talking folks with 12-16 years of gun time. We promote Lt's to Capt around 5~ which is about the same amount of time as we do for Sgts (about 1/2 as a new SSgt). You want someone comparable to a Gunny+, you're looking at a Maj-Col.
I'm not discounting that a Good Gunny+ is worth is weight in gold, but we've got A LOT of investment in them. But it's a different kind of investment. The knowledge base between a SgtMaj and a Col is beyond compare. They're just trained differently from the ground up. It's like comparing pickup trucks to station wagons.
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