Posted on Aug 16, 2017
What is the most appropriate way to address someone being given a false PT score, while minimizing the damage to their career?
106K
1.18K
358
193
193
0
Apologies for my terrible English. Here is the question broken down and explained in what I hope is in better terms.
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?
Article 15
Fraud
APFT
UCMJ
Promotions
Edited 8 y ago
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 244
0
0
0
There is
There is one thing to do here...bite the bullet and move on. Life is full of dramatic moments. I was no saint in the Army, but integrity means something. No one is going to go on record and tell you to do the “ wrong thing” on this forum.
Th
There is one thing to do here...bite the bullet and move on. Life is full of dramatic moments. I was no saint in the Army, but integrity means something. No one is going to go on record and tell you to do the “ wrong thing” on this forum.
Th
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
There may be mitigating circumstances that this NCO is not revealing. As a female who has been approached with attempts to be intimidated by men leaders, of which were very unsuccessful, I understand that perhaps this male NCO who penciled her APFT may have been intimidating her in a sexual discriminate manner. He may have raped her or sexually advanced on her, and as many are, she is afraid to say anything. Get the chaplain or a counselor to speak with her and support her. If this is not the case, then find out the real reason why she is so afraid. It's not always as it seems and as cut and dry as some here have made it out to be.
(0)
(0)
SFC Cynthia Eyer
1SG Boyd, I stated that there may be mitigating circumstances the Soldier asking this question may not be aware of. Your response is exactly why women (and men) don’t report these circumstances. You are the one who doesn’t understand a possible situation because, possibly, you are afraid to face such circumstances, choosing to deny they ever have or will occur.
(0)
(0)
1SG Billye Jackson
SFC Cynthia Eyer - The Question I have is in her Integrality, She Knew that the Points awarded to her for the PT Test were Bogus. She was awarded Promotion Points for a PT Test she didn't Take. This alone makes her Unfit to be an NCO.
(0)
(0)
SFC Cynthia Eyer
1SG Jackson, this is a different question than as the original question was presented. If there are no other mitigating circumstances and she simply accepted the score from the unprofessional NCO, of whom also requires the same consideration as the NCO who accepted the invalid score, then that makes both Soldiers unfit to be NCO’s. A question in integrity is a question of “being”, for the very meaning of integrity is to protect and maintain the very essence of the state of something’s or someone’s “being” or state of existence. Integrity is the very essence of who someone is. If they possess no integrity they are, by definition, unfit to serve in the military, for this is a code of being we represent and hold as truth to our loyalty to each other, our country, our constitutional decrees, and the missions to protect and defend each of these. Now, my question is: Why was her APFT score invalid from the male NCO who gave it to her and why did she state she was afraid to say something then? Is this the entire story? Are there mitigating circumstances in line with my original response? If so, this is not a simple act of integrity being in question and is much more serious. The NCO who gave her the invalid score is a much bigger issue for the command, for he is already of NCO rank, and by virtue of his rank, has the appearance of intimidation, coercion, or worse. This female is not alone in this issue and to discuss the issue with just her is to place the Soldier and the issue in a vacuum. Do you see my point here? Do you not agree there has to be more to it than what has been stated and that she is not alone in her lack of integrity? If he did this for her, what is his motive and end game, has he done this before her, and since her? I want to know WHY? To rid ourselves of weeds we must seek the root.
(0)
(0)
SFC Cynthia Eyer
1SG Billye Jackson, I also want to state that I recognize your point about her lack of integrity, being that she has now changed commands. However, females are almost always afraid, even after the threat is no longer there, to reveal circumstances as I mentioned previously. Historically women are not believed and a stigma follows HER. Again, if that isn’t the case, then she’s unfit to ever be an NCO and thus unfit for continued service. As well, so is the male NCO who lied on her APFT.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Cpl. Santos, ask yourself this, "Would I want this NCO as my squad leader/section leader"?
She has broken the #1 rule of leadership, "Lead by example"! What kind of an example has she set for you?
Ask yourself, "If she's willing to do this, what else is she capable of doing"? Is she capable of "fixing the numbers" to pass an IG inspection/audit that could possibly affect soldiers being deployed?
One final question, "Where is your integrity"? Are you willing to allow her lack of integrity have a possible life or death impact on a jr. enlisted soldier?
I'm a Marine ('75-'81) and spent five of those years as an NCO, four of them as a Sgt. I had to make some hard decisions, I put a friend in the brig and was a character witness for one of my Marines accused of rape.
Every decision I ever made was based on my integrity and how to best take care of my Marines.
She has broken the #1 rule of leadership, "Lead by example"! What kind of an example has she set for you?
Ask yourself, "If she's willing to do this, what else is she capable of doing"? Is she capable of "fixing the numbers" to pass an IG inspection/audit that could possibly affect soldiers being deployed?
One final question, "Where is your integrity"? Are you willing to allow her lack of integrity have a possible life or death impact on a jr. enlisted soldier?
I'm a Marine ('75-'81) and spent five of those years as an NCO, four of them as a Sgt. I had to make some hard decisions, I put a friend in the brig and was a character witness for one of my Marines accused of rape.
Every decision I ever made was based on my integrity and how to best take care of my Marines.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Why does Rallypoint send me these year old issues highlighted in emails as if they're brand new? I wrote a pretty long response before I realized that, in all likelihood, the actual issue is long since resolved for better or worse.
I hope it went well. The long and short of my advice was from your position as a Corporal it's probably most appropriate to discuss the issue privately with your PSG.
I hope it went well. The long and short of my advice was from your position as a Corporal it's probably most appropriate to discuss the issue privately with your PSG.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Imagine the the damage that will be done later on if that person dosent step up and do the right thing now!
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Sounds like another entitlement minority female working the system.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Honestly, the fact that you are ok with some fat body, whose previous "NCO" lied about her PT scores (to cover up the fact that she is actually an unsat piece of shit that can't even pass the PT test) and is ok with knowing her higher ups think she is a better warrior then she ACTUALLY is because when it comes right down to it she just can't hack it.....if you are ok with her being not only an NCO but also SGT....then to be honest you dont belong leading men/women in a big boy military....are you kidding me Cpl?? Fuck her career....she should have thought about that when she sat around getting lazy and fat thinking everything would be handed to her.....if you allow the "handling it to her" to continue, you are the problem.
(0)
(0)
1SG (Join to see)
How you derived that the soldier in question is a f'd up POS from a failed APFT score confuses me. How about she fell below standards and it is her COC, NCO's responsibility to mentor and train her IOT have that soldier a successful part of the team. Personal attacks where you have no idea of the facts make me question how you pinned on that E5 as a Marine. I say that being a Marine in my early years. I would ask that you rethink this post and just reply to the facts that you are aware of. Semper Fi
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
0
0
0
Report her to proper authority. That would be her commander. Then it’s out of your hands.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
I guess this is my question:
How did she make it through PLDC?
If you know its fake, why do you want to protect the career of said soldier?
Seems to me you don't know that it is fake, and their is any number of reasons why she did not perform up to standard, hell she could be pregnant and her hormones are all out of whack now.
Not your job to wonder what happened at her last command, not your job to ASSUME someone faked her pt score.
Your job is to address this issue that is before you today, and a DIAGNOSTIC pt test is no reason to flag a person who is on the promotion list.
There is more to being a leader than doing 100 push ups. The Army really needs to get that shit through their head. Hell some of the best leaders I ever met scored in the 70th percentile on the PT test. I had a leader once who prided himself on his push up count, used as a "test" when he thought he could prove a point with it, always came out: How many push ups can you do, lets us see. Then he afield the land nav course.
I would rather have a leader that can pass land nav, and not get my ass lost.
Integrity is important too, i get that; But sometimes the rules should be broken, they just don't fit EVERY situation.
Sometimes an NCO should cover for a soldier, even if it means that the rules are technically broken, it happens and A GOOD leader uses that as a leadership tool.
Leadership is not: I can fry this guy, lets do it.
How did she make it through PLDC?
If you know its fake, why do you want to protect the career of said soldier?
Seems to me you don't know that it is fake, and their is any number of reasons why she did not perform up to standard, hell she could be pregnant and her hormones are all out of whack now.
Not your job to wonder what happened at her last command, not your job to ASSUME someone faked her pt score.
Your job is to address this issue that is before you today, and a DIAGNOSTIC pt test is no reason to flag a person who is on the promotion list.
There is more to being a leader than doing 100 push ups. The Army really needs to get that shit through their head. Hell some of the best leaders I ever met scored in the 70th percentile on the PT test. I had a leader once who prided himself on his push up count, used as a "test" when he thought he could prove a point with it, always came out: How many push ups can you do, lets us see. Then he afield the land nav course.
I would rather have a leader that can pass land nav, and not get my ass lost.
Integrity is important too, i get that; But sometimes the rules should be broken, they just don't fit EVERY situation.
Sometimes an NCO should cover for a soldier, even if it means that the rules are technically broken, it happens and A GOOD leader uses that as a leadership tool.
Leadership is not: I can fry this guy, lets do it.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
That soldier needs to take on a mantle of leadership and report the score....she should have done it the day she received the score. She should retain her rank and get her butt in shape to get that 300 and then apply for that promotion again....integrity in this case is more important than career....that is what GROWN UPS do...
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Seems the time to address this "without negative impact on her career" has passed.
Anyone, anyone, anyone, everyone, everyone, everyone in the military KNOWS the right thing to do was report it immediately when discovered, and have it corrected. The very day it was discovered.
It appears this soldier was perfectly fine with a 300 score on her record until she was found. Now she's scared because she effectively lied, fraudulently took some that she did not earn or produce.
That soldier does not deserve a promotion. That soldier does not deserve to be an NCO.
I would not want to serve with such a person. She was wrong, the time to admit it was the day she knew it.
She should have negative consequences, this soldier lacks integrity and professionalism. She should be happy to be busted back to Private, then learn honesty, leadership, integrity, honor & selfless service the hard way from the ground up.
Alternatively, if she can't accept responsibility for her own compromised integrity, then she needs to leave military service. We don't need people like her.
Anyone, anyone, anyone, everyone, everyone, everyone in the military KNOWS the right thing to do was report it immediately when discovered, and have it corrected. The very day it was discovered.
It appears this soldier was perfectly fine with a 300 score on her record until she was found. Now she's scared because she effectively lied, fraudulently took some that she did not earn or produce.
That soldier does not deserve a promotion. That soldier does not deserve to be an NCO.
I would not want to serve with such a person. She was wrong, the time to admit it was the day she knew it.
She should have negative consequences, this soldier lacks integrity and professionalism. She should be happy to be busted back to Private, then learn honesty, leadership, integrity, honor & selfless service the hard way from the ground up.
Alternatively, if she can't accept responsibility for her own compromised integrity, then she needs to leave military service. We don't need people like her.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
This is a great topic If you know for a fact that the PT test was fixed then you should say something But You better be right
Second how did you come across this information If you where told or did you look at the training records both come with consequence 1 word of mouth which is not facts 2 Looking at someone’s personal information with out permission
I was in a unit in 05 when we took are PT test before being mobilized This was haunting for many The unit had 12 Col 75 LTC and 75 Maj and 30 capt and below NCO SIDE 12 CSM AND 30 E 8 and below
Top heavy rank
With out proof I would say most could pass height and weight or the PT test
So when we took are PT test it was a sight
12 Lines 1 grader 1 counter 1 Col 1 Csm
The same with those who needed to be taped
Just before the orders where received there was a retirement ceremony where that formation was bigger than the ones who passed their PT test
Second how did you come across this information If you where told or did you look at the training records both come with consequence 1 word of mouth which is not facts 2 Looking at someone’s personal information with out permission
I was in a unit in 05 when we took are PT test before being mobilized This was haunting for many The unit had 12 Col 75 LTC and 75 Maj and 30 capt and below NCO SIDE 12 CSM AND 30 E 8 and below
Top heavy rank
With out proof I would say most could pass height and weight or the PT test
So when we took are PT test it was a sight
12 Lines 1 grader 1 counter 1 Col 1 Csm
The same with those who needed to be taped
Just before the orders where received there was a retirement ceremony where that formation was bigger than the ones who passed their PT test
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
What SHE can do is PASS the next PT test. -- That is the ONLY thing that would have any chance to "not effect her career in a negative way." There is nothing she can do now about how she got into this situation. If she passes the PT test and performs her job well, there is a good chance that the new chain of command will ignore whatever happened at-another-time-in-another-place.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Well the NCO who falsified her pt score needs to be punished her COC needs to be punished for sending a soldier to the board that didn't qualify for the board she needs to be punished for going along with it and who cares if it damages her career if she takes a promotion that she didn't earn or deserves then she needs to have ucmj taken on her
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
0
0
0
Are you her squad leader? Why did she take a diagnostic PT test...medical condition maybe? If you are her squad leader or training NCO, then you must raise your observation. If not, then why are you the only one concerned? Too many questions to properly answer the situation raised by the CPL. Basically, it is a matter of self assessment of the benefits and risks of raising the issue up the chain. Just make really sure you have the solid facts to support your complaint.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
0
0
0
This act is intentional, when this Soldier knew the score was wrong they had a chance to correct it; but I have seen this before on the good-ole-buddy situation and is common. Once this done it can't be corrected and reflects on the integrity of the Soldier. the issues has to be resolved and hiding it is not going to make the situation any better.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Your obligation is to inform the chain of command. As others have pointed out there is no solid evidence against the soldier, so the commander should ensure that a preliminary investigation is conducted to determine if in fact the 300 APFT score was fraudulent. Did something occur that could have had an impact on the soldier's performance? A physical or medical issue, or change in environment due to the PCS -- elevation or ambient temperature changes could have effected her ability to perform.
If it is determined that the score was falsified the commander should make a decision based on the overall performance, efficiency and value of the soldier to the service. (Personally I would recommend revocation of the promotion and letter of reprimand at an absolute minimum --- assuming the soldier is an outstanding asset in other respects. Otherwise "hang her high"!) Additionally if it is determined that the score was falsified the chain of command of the NCO responsible for the falsification of her official APFT record should be informed so that they can also take appropriate action.
Liars are as bad as barracks thieves, for they steal the truth from us.
If it is determined that the score was falsified the commander should make a decision based on the overall performance, efficiency and value of the soldier to the service. (Personally I would recommend revocation of the promotion and letter of reprimand at an absolute minimum --- assuming the soldier is an outstanding asset in other respects. Otherwise "hang her high"!) Additionally if it is determined that the score was falsified the chain of command of the NCO responsible for the falsification of her official APFT record should be informed so that they can also take appropriate action.
Liars are as bad as barracks thieves, for they steal the truth from us.
(0)
(0)
Read This Next
-
Ask questionGet expert advice and
tips for your questions. -
Post updatePost pictures, personal updates, plans, or anything you like!
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google