Posted on Aug 16, 2017
What is the most appropriate way to address someone being given a false PT score, while minimizing the damage to their career?
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Apologies for my terrible English. Here is the question broken down and explained in what I hope is in better terms.
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?
Edited 8 y ago
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 244
A soldier that falsified a document is done in my eyes. What else are they cheating on. No gray area here.
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OH does this has integrity failures written all over it! If this Soldier scored 300 before, and failed now, her 705 card was pencil whipped no doubt. You don't go from the penthouse to the outhouse that quick. I might expect a drop from 300 to 270 or even 250 if it was a bad day, but to fail (that is, less than 180?) - doesn't happen. Now, obviously, the scoring NCO demonstrated a mondo integrity . Your Soldier is, in my opinion, equally guilty of having tacitly accepted the benefit of a 300 APFT which put her at the upper end of the cutting score. NOW - what to do - (1) YOU tell your Soldier your suspicions and relay same to your Chain (2) ask the Soldier what she thinks she should do. The answer should be something like "withdraw from promotion consideration". If you hear that - fine. If not, you're duty bound to report it up the line along with your recommendation. Whatever you do - DO NOT look the other way. These kinds of ACV violations can spin wildly out of control, putting you in the middle for not having stopped the fire before it spread.
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What puzzles me about this is why did they give her a 300 pt score when they knew she couldn't even pass a diagnostic pt test. I believe a perfect pt score translates to 180 promotion packet points, so did she need that many points to make her MOS promotion cutoff score? She will hold her promotion rank because it was a dislogistic pt test but will be required to participate in a "remedial" (not sure if correct term) pt program and then be required to re-take pt test, if she fails to pass the second one, it could be grounds for separation from the service.
Color me cynical but I believe there is more to this than is on the surface. Why would an NCO risk their career by falsifying a document for a subordinate?
If I were her new station SrNCO I would ask her one question... how does someone get a perfect score of 300 one time and the next time can't even manage a 180?
Color me cynical but I believe there is more to this than is on the surface. Why would an NCO risk their career by falsifying a document for a subordinate?
If I were her new station SrNCO I would ask her one question... how does someone get a perfect score of 300 one time and the next time can't even manage a 180?
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This has happened more timed than i csn count...especially people coming from Korea...i know an E5 Sgt that could varely pass the APFT while in Korea, but magically just a couple if months later scored a 300...she retired an E7...i promise you this is more common than people are willing to let on...ive seen the same issues with weight
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Wow, that has lack of integrity written all over it. Unless the Soldier had been injured, there is no way she could get a 300 on her APFT and then fail a follow-up diagnostic. Direct counseling to figure out how the original score got there (for example, was it actually valid, or did the Soldier think she made a different score, and a different one was transcribed on the record). I then concur with others here that the APFT should be repeated for record, and if she fails it, she will need to be flagged and counseled. I sincerely hope that the Soldier is not the one with the lack of integrity. I don't think any of us wants that type of Soldier in the US Army, let alone in a leadership position.
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The NCO that recorded and signed/ dated the PT card is the person responsible. The Soldier in question probably was aware that this may be bogus.
To lighten her load so to speak, let her new chain of command know that the previous NCO is the one who cooked the books. Perhaps a letter of reprimand would be in order for the young Soldier. The NCO that signed the PT card should be severely reprimanded....
To lighten her load so to speak, let her new chain of command know that the previous NCO is the one who cooked the books. Perhaps a letter of reprimand would be in order for the young Soldier. The NCO that signed the PT card should be severely reprimanded....
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You hold the responsibility of (a) Counselling her and because you are male, counsel with another female either present of within hearing distance. Counsel not tear down. (B) have her repeat the test. You might want to consider doing the test with her. I.e. Lead from the front and respect her effort. I can assure you; she will respect you and the beneficial effect on her future will be assured. Don't mention it to anyone, I can assure you the info will get to those who need to know. Its what you do: Not what you are seen to do. Good luck, you're doing the right thing!
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The corruption of the NCO and she aside, I don't understand the issue here. She failed at the fitness standard. Did this nullify her advancement? If so, she's the one that screwed herself.
An issue would arise if she was advanced despite failing the fitness standard.
An issue would arise if she was advanced despite failing the fitness standard.
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When I entered the military, jobs that had only been available to men were now open to women enlisting. I see many individuals in this scenario that should be counselled. First the NCO in charge of administering this test. The soldier involved knew exactly what she needed to do to pass the test. I made SGT in three years after entering the Military. Before even going before the board I knew exactly what was expected of me. The people that were present at the time the test was administered. This is a sad day when pride is not taken into consideration of the accomplishment. As a female Veteran I am saddened to hear that a female soldier would go along with this deception to benefit her career. It only shows her lack of strength and integrity. If this is the kind of soldier/person she is it won't take long before her deception is blatantly revealed.
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This is obviously a question of integrity and upholding the standards we expect throughout the military; but looking at one small detail:
Changing an APFT score for a soldier who can't even pass it to a 300, isn't "pencil-whipping it", it's setting them up for failure. "Pigs get fat, but hogs get slaughtered"!
Changing an APFT score for a soldier who can't even pass it to a 300, isn't "pencil-whipping it", it's setting them up for failure. "Pigs get fat, but hogs get slaughtered"!
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You have to say something. being incapable of doing her job can kill people in the field. To hell with her career if she's dishonest, you have more important things to worry about, like your fellow soldiers.
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as a corporal you just administered a PT test who to someone who was just promoted to sergeant. Since the soldier has not been pinned yet, you need to counsel the soldier and schedule a record PT test in 30 days. Take the counseling statement and the score card to your platoon sergeant. Your platoon sergeant and chain of command need to made aware of this so they can take action now or latter if the soldier fails the record test. Do not compromise you integrity for someone who cannot pass a PT test.
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Sp4…This is an easy on celebrate with a blanket party, with a wooden tent peg up his six.
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I cant believe this is even a question that needs to be asked...
Unless this soldier had a legitimate reason for failing the PT test, such as an injury, she should be adversely disciplined. This soldier was willing to accept the benefits of lying but now that she is caught, she doesn’t want to be held accountable? Her career should suffer. This type of behavior should be weeded out removed from the military. How can this soldier be a leader when any corrective action she hands out will be from a position of fraud? This type of behavior results in distrust between leaders and subordinates and breeds contempt. Junior soldiers are not dumb and most people can spot a fraudster. Remember that the NCO underground reaches everywhere.
Unless this soldier had a legitimate reason for failing the PT test, such as an injury, she should be adversely disciplined. This soldier was willing to accept the benefits of lying but now that she is caught, she doesn’t want to be held accountable? Her career should suffer. This type of behavior should be weeded out removed from the military. How can this soldier be a leader when any corrective action she hands out will be from a position of fraud? This type of behavior results in distrust between leaders and subordinates and breeds contempt. Junior soldiers are not dumb and most people can spot a fraudster. Remember that the NCO underground reaches everywhere.
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There is nothing to do but face the music. She was ready to take the all of the benefits of lying and now she must take all of the other "benefits" of lying. Sounds like she hoped to get away with being dishonest but now she is caught and now she is "sorry". This is an example of why subordinates and leaders don't trust each other. I wouldn't let her lead anyone else because anytime she has to give corrective actions she will be a hypocrite.
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This is what happens when you have toxic and failed leadership. A case SM afraid to go through his COC becuase of past bad experiences. If APFT are done in line with AR, this kind of incidence would never occur. Any of SM, PSG, Training NCO, 1SG and CO should have verified and tracked this mistake before, leaving the PT field. SM should have been flagged for a 10 days retest and given remedial PT to get back to shape. And if this is a mistake by S1, disciplinary action should not be taking on the SM as long as he/she has not knowingly taken credit for this mistake. SM should turn down the promotion, do another PT test. And if SM is injured get a profile. This is a simple case and a true test of the SM army value-integrity, SM should report immediately to his PSG before it is too late.
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Don’t get your panties into a wad. Everything has a way of working out to the best result. She got caught down the road! Everything will always come to light, karma is a bitch. She got caught because the system works. Officers have been cheating for years! Not all officers and not every branch, but them assholes have been and will continue to until they get caught.
Chill out. I needed shoulder surgery but i was also picked up for ANCO. I made sure I could pass the PT Test and went on to graduate ANCO. But, my SGL had me down on the Commandant’s List but I hadn’t met the standards for the List because of my shoulder. I immediately made the correction on my exit/final counseling. My mentor, CSM (ret) Thomas Bookman had a motto when we were SSG and SGTs together in Hawaii, and i live by those everyday and have taught them to my four boys.It goes like this, If you lie, you steal you cheat! If you’re willing to do one, you can do all three. Everyone has integrity until you make me question yours
Chill out. I needed shoulder surgery but i was also picked up for ANCO. I made sure I could pass the PT Test and went on to graduate ANCO. But, my SGL had me down on the Commandant’s List but I hadn’t met the standards for the List because of my shoulder. I immediately made the correction on my exit/final counseling. My mentor, CSM (ret) Thomas Bookman had a motto when we were SSG and SGTs together in Hawaii, and i live by those everyday and have taught them to my four boys.It goes like this, If you lie, you steal you cheat! If you’re willing to do one, you can do all three. Everyone has integrity until you make me question yours
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Back in 1990, I was stationed on the USS Austin LPD 4. Which was turned into razor blades in 2006. We had many fat chiefs then. My LPO (lead petty officer) which ran the PT test. Which consisted of the medical and dental department. We would run the flight deck. And every pass through the start finish line. We were given popsicle sticks. And the chiefs would get two just too pass the PT test.
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I'd say E4's and below are never wrong. They are only as wrong as we allow them to be, because a soldier was evaluated during an APFT and scored 300 and failed the APFT all together during a diagnostic isn't an indicator of wrong doing. However that SPC took the APFT and was evaluated by a "NON-Commissioned Officer" who in my opinion is the one with no integrity and is subject to Article 90, 91 and 92 of the UCMJ. Let's just say her APFT was recorded under false pretenses for whatever reason. The NCO Corp failed that soldier. Can you prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that she didn't obtain a 300 on her last APFT or is it speculated because she failed to achieve a 300 or even pass the APFT for that matter? It appears that the soldier if in fact was given an erroneous PT score she is learning a valuable lesson and she should be removed from the promotion list. If the NCO that graded her erroneously recorded the information on her PT test, with or without her knowledge. there is the real problem. Soldier's get away with what the NCO Corp allows them to get away with.
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The fact that the individual submitted a fraudulent PT score card in order to get promoted is alarming. A few points before rendering my judgement. The military is not the civilian world when it comes to simple matters of fitness and how we administer and document such test. If the individual (regardless of gender) submits a PT scorecard for record knowingly not reflecting the actual scores demonstrates intent to deceive. Second, an individual can not administer the record PT to themselves. There must be unit published dates for record PT test approved by the unit Commander. The unit Commander has personnel appointed to administer such tests. Any other tests submitted when not adhering to such policy and published dates must be in compliance to Dept. of Army regulation/publications. Failure to comply with such regulations leaves the individual and unit vulnerable to noncompliance. I would confront the individual and other individuals who administered the test to discuss the outcome. Once I counseled those involved, I would take them all out and conduct a practice PT test and provide further guidance in terms of remedial training and punitive actions. You mentioned that you did not want to destroy their careers, but you didn't. They did! This episode can be one of a bunch of small episodes that can destroy the integrity of any unit. Lead by example!
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This reminds me of a similar situation. Not exactly the same - but in principle very similar. My platoon was taking a PT test. During formation, I called for sick call, AWOL and good balls to fall out to the rear and this E-5 fell out to go to sick call. Before I could ask him, I heard one of the squad members ask him what was wrong, and I flat out heard him reply, that he was going on sick call to avoid taking the PT test which he felt he would fail. I walked up and asked him to confirm what I heard and he admitted that was his reason for sick call. At 0900 formation, I informed the 1SG I was sending this E-5 to the orderly room for him to do whatever he wanted to do with him, but he would not be in my platoon, leading soldiers. I guess fortunately for me, the 1SG not so much supported but didn't push back on my decision. He worked in the orderly room for about a year when he came back and asked if he could come return, which I allowed but on a counseled probation. FYI during the time, he was at the orderly room I set up a remedial PT program and did remedial PT with him after COB, every day. He eventually passed his PT test. But that wasn't the issue at heart, just like the issue with this individual. Yes, the failed PT test needs to be addressed but more importantly, the lack of character and integrity would be all over my radar. You cannot be an effective leader while lacking those two traits. You can't even be a dependable human without those two traits in my opinion. She needs to own up to the falsified score and the fact she failed her PT test. She does not deserve the stripes on her collar. I would find out what the deal was with this other NCO, and I would light his ass up as well. I don't want to let my imagination run on what it was - but playing favorites as a leader is one of the MOST DETRIMENTAL things you can do to your other soldiers. Even the perception of favoritism is a morale killer and that can affect operations. This needs to be nipped in the bud. Your interest should lie in preserving the quality of the NCO Corp and the ranks of the Army. It should lie to the soldiers she could potentially lead with obvious character and leadership flaws. She made this bed, she needs to sleep in it, as does the NCO who falsified her PT score.
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Suspended Profile
1. If you are not involved directly, do not confront directly, you would be basing your discussion on "hearsay". You need to address the issue with your chain.
2. If what you say is true, then the NCO who documented the PT Score has failed their integrity check.
3. The SPC who is up for promotion knew the score was inaccurate and failed to say something, will face their just desserts for not soldiering up to the failure. It will effect her in a negative way. There will be corrective action, but there will be plenty of time to recover and get promoted again.
The grading NCO knows better and should face the consequences of his/her actions.
The best thing to do is get close to a 300 next record PT...then questions won't be raised.
2. If what you say is true, then the NCO who documented the PT Score has failed their integrity check.
3. The SPC who is up for promotion knew the score was inaccurate and failed to say something, will face their just desserts for not soldiering up to the failure. It will effect her in a negative way. There will be corrective action, but there will be plenty of time to recover and get promoted again.
The grading NCO knows better and should face the consequences of his/her actions.
The best thing to do is get close to a 300 next record PT...then questions won't be raised.
It’s about integrity clearly she has none and I’m wondering about you as well. If you knew about this and did nothing your complicit in that fraud
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If the soldier failed a diagnostic APFT she has 30 days to whip herself into shape and then take and pass a for record APFT. Diagnostic APFTs are just that. A tool with which to check a soldiers fitness level at any given time. As for the pencil 300 APFT on her promotion record, she should delay promotion, inform her 1SG of the false score, and ask for her promotion points to be recalculated after the for Record APFT. The actions of a dishonest third party should not be used against the soldier. The soldier always gets the benefit of the doubt. This is the only way I know of her to ensure that her integrity remains intact and that she maintains her credibility in the unit.
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I guess my question to you is, would you want to be in a foxhole with her, get wounded and have to rely on her to drag you out and save your life? PT scores present abilities to do what is necessary in combat, period. There is no second chance in combat, nobody to rewrite the rules during engagement. 1. she did not merit her score. 2. Her score was falsely elevated. 3. How do you know this? Your knowledge, no matter its age, should still become known by the upper echelons. If you say nothing, I wish you the best in that foxhole.
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I had about the same, only it was a SSG and His SP4 Driver and at was Weapons Qal. I found out that the two of them never got out of the Deuce and a Half, Tell you how I handled it., the SSg. became a SGT and the SP4 became a PFC. Oh and the SSG was on the SFC List at the Time. We were going to make it a Company Grade, but when it went forward the Bn Cdr tore it up and Made it a Field Grade. This is want should Happen to her.
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There is
There is one thing to do here...bite the bullet and move on. Life is full of dramatic moments. I was no saint in the Army, but integrity means something. No one is going to go on record and tell you to do the “ wrong thing” on this forum.
Th
There is one thing to do here...bite the bullet and move on. Life is full of dramatic moments. I was no saint in the Army, but integrity means something. No one is going to go on record and tell you to do the “ wrong thing” on this forum.
Th
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There may be mitigating circumstances that this NCO is not revealing. As a female who has been approached with attempts to be intimidated by men leaders, of which were very unsuccessful, I understand that perhaps this male NCO who penciled her APFT may have been intimidating her in a sexual discriminate manner. He may have raped her or sexually advanced on her, and as many are, she is afraid to say anything. Get the chaplain or a counselor to speak with her and support her. If this is not the case, then find out the real reason why she is so afraid. It's not always as it seems and as cut and dry as some here have made it out to be.
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SFC Cynthia Eyer
1SG Boyd, I stated that there may be mitigating circumstances the Soldier asking this question may not be aware of. Your response is exactly why women (and men) don’t report these circumstances. You are the one who doesn’t understand a possible situation because, possibly, you are afraid to face such circumstances, choosing to deny they ever have or will occur.
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1SG Billye Jackson
SFC Cynthia Eyer - The Question I have is in her Integrality, She Knew that the Points awarded to her for the PT Test were Bogus. She was awarded Promotion Points for a PT Test she didn't Take. This alone makes her Unfit to be an NCO.
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SFC Cynthia Eyer
1SG Jackson, this is a different question than as the original question was presented. If there are no other mitigating circumstances and she simply accepted the score from the unprofessional NCO, of whom also requires the same consideration as the NCO who accepted the invalid score, then that makes both Soldiers unfit to be NCO’s. A question in integrity is a question of “being”, for the very meaning of integrity is to protect and maintain the very essence of the state of something’s or someone’s “being” or state of existence. Integrity is the very essence of who someone is. If they possess no integrity they are, by definition, unfit to serve in the military, for this is a code of being we represent and hold as truth to our loyalty to each other, our country, our constitutional decrees, and the missions to protect and defend each of these. Now, my question is: Why was her APFT score invalid from the male NCO who gave it to her and why did she state she was afraid to say something then? Is this the entire story? Are there mitigating circumstances in line with my original response? If so, this is not a simple act of integrity being in question and is much more serious. The NCO who gave her the invalid score is a much bigger issue for the command, for he is already of NCO rank, and by virtue of his rank, has the appearance of intimidation, coercion, or worse. This female is not alone in this issue and to discuss the issue with just her is to place the Soldier and the issue in a vacuum. Do you see my point here? Do you not agree there has to be more to it than what has been stated and that she is not alone in her lack of integrity? If he did this for her, what is his motive and end game, has he done this before her, and since her? I want to know WHY? To rid ourselves of weeds we must seek the root.
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SFC Cynthia Eyer
1SG Billye Jackson, I also want to state that I recognize your point about her lack of integrity, being that she has now changed commands. However, females are almost always afraid, even after the threat is no longer there, to reveal circumstances as I mentioned previously. Historically women are not believed and a stigma follows HER. Again, if that isn’t the case, then she’s unfit to ever be an NCO and thus unfit for continued service. As well, so is the male NCO who lied on her APFT.
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Cpl. Santos, ask yourself this, "Would I want this NCO as my squad leader/section leader"?
She has broken the #1 rule of leadership, "Lead by example"! What kind of an example has she set for you?
Ask yourself, "If she's willing to do this, what else is she capable of doing"? Is she capable of "fixing the numbers" to pass an IG inspection/audit that could possibly affect soldiers being deployed?
One final question, "Where is your integrity"? Are you willing to allow her lack of integrity have a possible life or death impact on a jr. enlisted soldier?
I'm a Marine ('75-'81) and spent five of those years as an NCO, four of them as a Sgt. I had to make some hard decisions, I put a friend in the brig and was a character witness for one of my Marines accused of rape.
Every decision I ever made was based on my integrity and how to best take care of my Marines.
She has broken the #1 rule of leadership, "Lead by example"! What kind of an example has she set for you?
Ask yourself, "If she's willing to do this, what else is she capable of doing"? Is she capable of "fixing the numbers" to pass an IG inspection/audit that could possibly affect soldiers being deployed?
One final question, "Where is your integrity"? Are you willing to allow her lack of integrity have a possible life or death impact on a jr. enlisted soldier?
I'm a Marine ('75-'81) and spent five of those years as an NCO, four of them as a Sgt. I had to make some hard decisions, I put a friend in the brig and was a character witness for one of my Marines accused of rape.
Every decision I ever made was based on my integrity and how to best take care of my Marines.
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Why does Rallypoint send me these year old issues highlighted in emails as if they're brand new? I wrote a pretty long response before I realized that, in all likelihood, the actual issue is long since resolved for better or worse.
I hope it went well. The long and short of my advice was from your position as a Corporal it's probably most appropriate to discuss the issue privately with your PSG.
I hope it went well. The long and short of my advice was from your position as a Corporal it's probably most appropriate to discuss the issue privately with your PSG.
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Imagine the the damage that will be done later on if that person dosent step up and do the right thing now!
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Sounds like another entitlement minority female working the system.
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Honestly, the fact that you are ok with some fat body, whose previous "NCO" lied about her PT scores (to cover up the fact that she is actually an unsat piece of shit that can't even pass the PT test) and is ok with knowing her higher ups think she is a better warrior then she ACTUALLY is because when it comes right down to it she just can't hack it.....if you are ok with her being not only an NCO but also SGT....then to be honest you dont belong leading men/women in a big boy military....are you kidding me Cpl?? Fuck her career....she should have thought about that when she sat around getting lazy and fat thinking everything would be handed to her.....if you allow the "handling it to her" to continue, you are the problem.
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1SG (Join to see)
How you derived that the soldier in question is a f'd up POS from a failed APFT score confuses me. How about she fell below standards and it is her COC, NCO's responsibility to mentor and train her IOT have that soldier a successful part of the team. Personal attacks where you have no idea of the facts make me question how you pinned on that E5 as a Marine. I say that being a Marine in my early years. I would ask that you rethink this post and just reply to the facts that you are aware of. Semper Fi
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Report her to proper authority. That would be her commander. Then it’s out of your hands.
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I guess this is my question:
How did she make it through PLDC?
If you know its fake, why do you want to protect the career of said soldier?
Seems to me you don't know that it is fake, and their is any number of reasons why she did not perform up to standard, hell she could be pregnant and her hormones are all out of whack now.
Not your job to wonder what happened at her last command, not your job to ASSUME someone faked her pt score.
Your job is to address this issue that is before you today, and a DIAGNOSTIC pt test is no reason to flag a person who is on the promotion list.
There is more to being a leader than doing 100 push ups. The Army really needs to get that shit through their head. Hell some of the best leaders I ever met scored in the 70th percentile on the PT test. I had a leader once who prided himself on his push up count, used as a "test" when he thought he could prove a point with it, always came out: How many push ups can you do, lets us see. Then he afield the land nav course.
I would rather have a leader that can pass land nav, and not get my ass lost.
Integrity is important too, i get that; But sometimes the rules should be broken, they just don't fit EVERY situation.
Sometimes an NCO should cover for a soldier, even if it means that the rules are technically broken, it happens and A GOOD leader uses that as a leadership tool.
Leadership is not: I can fry this guy, lets do it.
How did she make it through PLDC?
If you know its fake, why do you want to protect the career of said soldier?
Seems to me you don't know that it is fake, and their is any number of reasons why she did not perform up to standard, hell she could be pregnant and her hormones are all out of whack now.
Not your job to wonder what happened at her last command, not your job to ASSUME someone faked her pt score.
Your job is to address this issue that is before you today, and a DIAGNOSTIC pt test is no reason to flag a person who is on the promotion list.
There is more to being a leader than doing 100 push ups. The Army really needs to get that shit through their head. Hell some of the best leaders I ever met scored in the 70th percentile on the PT test. I had a leader once who prided himself on his push up count, used as a "test" when he thought he could prove a point with it, always came out: How many push ups can you do, lets us see. Then he afield the land nav course.
I would rather have a leader that can pass land nav, and not get my ass lost.
Integrity is important too, i get that; But sometimes the rules should be broken, they just don't fit EVERY situation.
Sometimes an NCO should cover for a soldier, even if it means that the rules are technically broken, it happens and A GOOD leader uses that as a leadership tool.
Leadership is not: I can fry this guy, lets do it.
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