Posted on Mar 6, 2015
What's The Problem With The Air Force Culture?
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EDIT: In the interest of fairness and full disclosure, I am leaving the original text of this post below so that you may see how I originally approached this question. When I first posted this, I was still a relative newcomer to RallyPoint. I was and still am curious about Air Force culture, working on Fort Snelling, MN, home of the 934th Air Wing, United States Air Force Reserve as well as the 133rd Tactical Fighter Squadron, Minnesota Air National Guard. In the past, I have worked jointly with elements of Air Force Security Forces and have always enjoyed strong working relationships. Aside from the usual banter across services, there is strong curiosity across the Army about you men and women in blue. However, this trend started to grow gradually more toxic in approximately 2007, around about the time SECDEF Rumsfeld leveled the charge that the Air Force wasn't engaged in the fight. That was an unfair charge; yet it hurt you as an institution nevertheless. Slowly, the talk I would hear among Soldiers in regards to Airmen turned more to contempt and bitterness. This wasn't right. And we all know that the Army's house has been far from perfect over the past decade plus; from Abu Ghraib to the apparent trend of dishonesty within our own Officer corps, we have our own crosses to bear without finding fault within your Force. So, if my original post below came across to you as sanctimonious or judgmental, that wasn't my intent. When I posted, I followed the recommendations to lead off with an attention-grabbing storyline, which I did. It's worked well! However, as I've refined my RP skills, I now know I would have dialed it back a notch or two! Thanks so much for allowing me to be a guest in your house and learn from you. I am thankful to you all, I am grateful for the connections I've made, and I'm damn glad you're on my side!
Howdy! Did the headline grab your attention? Good! I intend no disrespect; I am an Army Officer who seeks greater understanding. Participation in several recent threads has revealed a trend that issues such as stolen valor and the vigorous enforcement of standards, regulations, and policies are not only less important among Air Force folks, but there also exists an attitude of "even if we try to enforce or prevent, violations still occur, so why keep trying?" Is this just the winter observations of several bored Army Officers, or is this really a cultural mindset you as Air Force leaders must currently do battle with?
Ground Rules:
This is intended as a serious, cross-service professional discussion. I do not desire to see this diminish into a meme war or name-calling game. This discussion is open to all ranks, though is intended primarily for Officers and Senior NCOs. Navy and Marine Corps personnel may feel free to jump in and expand the boundaries of this discussion to all Service Branches at anytime.
Thank you.
Paul E. Hoiland
MAJ, MP
USAR
Howdy! Did the headline grab your attention? Good! I intend no disrespect; I am an Army Officer who seeks greater understanding. Participation in several recent threads has revealed a trend that issues such as stolen valor and the vigorous enforcement of standards, regulations, and policies are not only less important among Air Force folks, but there also exists an attitude of "even if we try to enforce or prevent, violations still occur, so why keep trying?" Is this just the winter observations of several bored Army Officers, or is this really a cultural mindset you as Air Force leaders must currently do battle with?
Ground Rules:
This is intended as a serious, cross-service professional discussion. I do not desire to see this diminish into a meme war or name-calling game. This discussion is open to all ranks, though is intended primarily for Officers and Senior NCOs. Navy and Marine Corps personnel may feel free to jump in and expand the boundaries of this discussion to all Service Branches at anytime.
Thank you.
Paul E. Hoiland
MAJ, MP
USAR
Air Force
Culture
Airmen
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 123
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As a newer airman I can point out things that at a very early stage that aren't being handled properly. I wanted to join the Air Force to acquire a skill set that will not only benefit me for the time being, but for the future as well. Going into a more intellectual job like Intel I chose to go Air Force. Now, in BMT I was taught a great deal about regulations, courtesy, and respect from an MTI who went the extra mile to make sure that his trainees knew them. For that I am grateful. With that being said, I don't feel that other airmen had that luxury and are lacking the basic skills to be an outstanding airman. Without these building blocks, you can't expect newer airmen to be the respectful and hard working airmen they should be. They haven't been taught. I understand that the Air Force needs to keep their enlisted for longer periods of time but this is the military and we aren't living up to the same expectations as other branches.
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I can only answer to my personal experiences, but I have yet to meet any AF personnel with as much pride in themselves or their branch than a Soldier or Marine. I understand that my interactions are limited, in the grand scope of things, however, that is merely my observation.
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MAJ (Join to see), the U.S. Air Force is still the greatest in world, in my opinion. Despite whatever "cultural differences" may appear between the USAF and the other services, they still get the job done in fine fashion. I personally don't have a problem with it, other than just joking as we frequently do within this forum.
SSgt (Join to see) TSgt Tifani McCauley TSgt Joshua Copeland CMSgt (Join to see)
SSgt (Join to see) TSgt Tifani McCauley TSgt Joshua Copeland CMSgt (Join to see)
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From my perspective I am totally baffled at AF personnel, from being in Kuwait with them and watching Junior Airmen act like high school kids oblivious to my anger at their casual disrespect of Army Officers to Qatar watching in embarrassed stupification as a singing dancing flash mob of Airmen burst out of nowhere at the DFAC, to the Air Force CPT insisting I call him "Tom" at an Air load class (I still called him "Sir"). It truly is a different culture.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
Flash Mob The U S Air Force Band at the Smithsonian
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Maj (Join to see)
Ya....I know exactly what you mean. I would much rather have 3-4 of my guys get a DUI every weekend.....or go to jail for starting a fight.
There is a balance. Every service fails to achieve that balance. You have to have well-adjusted people who like to have a good time, but are able to prevent that good time from interfering with the mission. If 12 of my airmen decide to make a video with them lipsynching to "I'm sexy and I know it".....am I going to waste my time telling them to stop acting unprofessional while spending 50% of their waking hours at idle? The answer is "no". If I have guys getting in fights and earning themselves the coveted DUI every six months...am I going to tell them to stop acting unprofessional? The answer is "yes". Having spent 16 years in the military with 10 of those years being on Army installations, there are two things that bother me. 1) The Air Force's corporate culture that doesn't take enough seriously, in my opinion; and 2) The Army's "drunken violence" culture where every disagreement can only be settled with a fist fight. Which of those causes greater damage to the mission?
I think we are okay.
There is a balance. Every service fails to achieve that balance. You have to have well-adjusted people who like to have a good time, but are able to prevent that good time from interfering with the mission. If 12 of my airmen decide to make a video with them lipsynching to "I'm sexy and I know it".....am I going to waste my time telling them to stop acting unprofessional while spending 50% of their waking hours at idle? The answer is "no". If I have guys getting in fights and earning themselves the coveted DUI every six months...am I going to tell them to stop acting unprofessional? The answer is "yes". Having spent 16 years in the military with 10 of those years being on Army installations, there are two things that bother me. 1) The Air Force's corporate culture that doesn't take enough seriously, in my opinion; and 2) The Army's "drunken violence" culture where every disagreement can only be settled with a fist fight. Which of those causes greater damage to the mission?
I think we are okay.
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SMSgt Tom Clater
This kind of crap is embarrassing to me. The AF lost its way many years ago. It just continues to get worse.
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Lack of ingrained historical traditions. The result is a branch emerging from its infancy stage with a thinly developed culture that is mostly borrowed from other branches. Also Air Force is the red headed step child of the Army - you have to remember these are the guys that don't play reveille and retreat because it may disturb shift workers. I wonder what they would think of sleeping in a hole with 155 rounds coming in - loud noises will never scare you again.
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MSgt Brian Mchugh
No worries. That situation would not surprise me. I remember Stuttgart when the leadership banned morning PT runs in formation in base housing. I guess we woke up some of the late sleepers.
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Capt (Join to see)
I spent 14+ years of active duty in the Air Force and 8 !/2 years in the Army Reserve. I attended tech school on an Army post (Fort Leonard Wood) and Cartographic Officers course at Fort Belvoir VA. In all I have held 10 ranks. While there are indeed differences I can say that both the Army and the Air Force have pride and discipline. Both will change a person.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
MSgt Brian Mchugh, it was Eglin and they stopped reveille and taps in the housing area.
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No disrespect here-
While I was in AIT, I was on joint base San Antonio (Fort Sam Houston) and had interaction with USAF who were going through their respective medic program. They definitely did have the same definition of discipline that we did. They were organized, but didn't move with urgency or precision. They were technically sound in their jobs as medics, but were a lot more laid back then we were.
While I was in AIT, I was on joint base San Antonio (Fort Sam Houston) and had interaction with USAF who were going through their respective medic program. They definitely did have the same definition of discipline that we did. They were organized, but didn't move with urgency or precision. They were technically sound in their jobs as medics, but were a lot more laid back then we were.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
SPC (Join to see) , our tech training is separated in to two separate training environments. The "school house" focuses on the "technical" do your job portion. A separate cadre of MTLs lead the outside of classroom training which includes all the standard discipline "stuff" to include drill.
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SPC (Join to see)
Ahhhhhh ok. That explains it. I don't claim to know the Air Force, just an impression. But thank u for explaining! And im sure AF were good medics
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SMSgt Bryan Raines
SPC Ryan Deering, I was involved in setting up the Surgical Tech course for the joint medical technical training program and spent a lot of time on Ft. Sam in the Army medical tech school in 2006 - 2009. The one thing that stuck me as different outside of the technical training was that the Army students had their cell phones on them and could use them on their breaks. At the time if an Airman in tech school at Sheppard AFB, medical training site for the AF at the time, was caught with a cell phone at school punishment would have been swift and severe. To me that showed very lax discipline. I know that the Army is not an undisciplined service, but that one incidence of difference in the cultures/rules of the two services clouded my judgment of Army Discipline for a very short period of time. Just goes to show how what we are used to and what we see at a given time affects our perspective.
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SPC (Join to see)
That's a great reminder SMSGT. It's good to remember and know what things were like at different times. Policies change all the time and I definitely heard stories of how army medic school used to be from instructors that we had. I was sat FT Sam in the fall of 2013 and obviously I have a bias towards the Army haha. But thank you for sharing with me.
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I have not had the chance to work with Airmen, but in their defense I will say they must be doing something right that so many of the Soldiers I speak to on a daily basis wish they could switch over. I enjoy the concept of working efficiently to finish a project rather than a traditional way which seems more costly and time consuming.
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MAJ (Join to see)
SPC Smith, I think if our Republic were to last for another 1,000 years, you'll be hearing Soldiers singing that tune somewhere in the World!
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As an active duty Army soldier, I can often point out and identify violations such as stolen valor and infractions to the regulations surrounding the Army lifestyle. That being said, I also have a buddy who is a USAFR medic who is just as aware of the violations and just as quick to call people out on them. I BELIEVE (no intent to insult anyone by any means) that as a whole, being more of a technical profession, rather than tactical, the Air Force is either less aware/vigilant regarding such things, or simply has more personnel who avoid the issue under the premise of "not my place." In the Army, things like stolen valor are a BIG no-no. But having asked my friend, SrA Nordan, about the topic, it would seem that they are not always instructed to take action against such things, and that is, in my opinion a failure on the part of the leadership.
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SSgt (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see) Oh, I don't fail to take action. I find it a disgrace. As one that has been on a 15 year struggle to get back in, I find it repugnant (large word, I know. I had to look it up!) when I come across it.
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SPC (Join to see)
Trust me, I understand. I said "not always." My buddy SrA Nordan takes action regularly as well. But in general, it is my understanding that most do not.
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I have found the Air Force to be the least "militant" of the armed forces. Not to say they are not a professional service, but there just isn't a culture of formal discipline/bearing that you see in the other branches. Interactions have always had more of a corporate feel then military.
It could be because as a branch they recruit more of the intellectual types (highest minimum ASVAB for enlisted).
There are exceptions (PJ's and CCT's) but overall they are not a force with boots on the ground going into the breach so the Air Force culture may have not developed that level of formal military discipline because it is not required for mission accomplishment.
Not trying to disparage the Air Force nor say they are not disciplined in their jobs, but being disciplined in conducting the maintenance PQS on a plane is not the same as military discipline/bearing.
It could be because as a branch they recruit more of the intellectual types (highest minimum ASVAB for enlisted).
There are exceptions (PJ's and CCT's) but overall they are not a force with boots on the ground going into the breach so the Air Force culture may have not developed that level of formal military discipline because it is not required for mission accomplishment.
Not trying to disparage the Air Force nor say they are not disciplined in their jobs, but being disciplined in conducting the maintenance PQS on a plane is not the same as military discipline/bearing.
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SSgt (Join to see)
I agree w/ you PO1 Dustin Adams. When anyone of the SF or SpecOps field attempted to 'adjust' discipline in a member of another house, we were looked at as if we were from another galaxy.
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Maj (Join to see)
You will find Air Force personnel to be extremely professional, but lacking the warrior ethos.
I've worked active duty Air Force, private corporation, and government and the Air Force was (by far) the most "corporate" of those.
I've worked active duty Air Force, private corporation, and government and the Air Force was (by far) the most "corporate" of those.
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I have a different cultural experience being aircrew. As a whole we tend to be more laid back and less serious but still respectful of our officers. However I am currently battling with no respect for rank in my section. While I don't expect airmen to address me as MSgt Foley I do expect them to listen to me when I tell them to do something. Instead I get called mom, told they will do it anyway, or ignored. When i talk to my peers they are equally frustrated, but when i talk to my senior leadership they laugh and make excuses like, " boys will be boys". It seems to come from airmen under 25 and is most noticeable in airmen under 22. They take their cues from the Senior leadership and when there's no punishment they look at it as acceptable behavior.
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CCMSgt (Join to see)
The progression of unprofessional behavior is not linear. It's exponential. Every time we overlook, it gets not just worse...but a lot worse. The longer it builds up, the longer it takes to undo the damage. Bad habits are hard to break.
Don't wait for anyone to provide top cover for this either. It won't happen. Earn that rocker.
Don't wait for anyone to provide top cover for this either. It won't happen. Earn that rocker.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
CCMSgt (Join to see) is absolutely on point. Bad new, discipline issues and fish do not get better with age!
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