Posted on Apr 27, 2016
What would you do if your CSM was ignoring uniform and grooming standards? (CSM Flournoy)
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So this CSM from the the 8th MP BDE seems to be out of regulations. From the comments she has been corrected but she claims she is being harassed. I don't even understand how she got to be a CSM at a BDE. What COL out there is letting this happen? In one of the photos she is wearing stilettos in uniform. WTF? What kind of example is this. The worst is from a Facebook user that said:
"This one!!!! Holy **** she was in charge of us in Afghanistan!! I could go on and on about this toxic leader!! Trying to maintain professionalism but this one.....when a CSM so jacked up like this, she was laughing her ass off during our rehearsal of my brothers ceremony after he was killed in Afghanistan, she f***ing yelled at me because I "took too long saying my goodbye " as I'm f***ing crying kneeling in front of it. This post will probably get me in trouble, and ruin the rest of my army career as well as my day and my army experience."
What would you do if you were there? What if you were on command?
What should the Army do about this?
(Thanks to Army MP WTF Moments and it's followers for the photos.)
**************UPDATE************************
The 8th Theater Sustainment Command CSM will be travelling to the 8th MP BDE to have some one on one time with this CSM. It is amazing as leaders will do when they are being called out. He should have done that a long time ago.
"This one!!!! Holy **** she was in charge of us in Afghanistan!! I could go on and on about this toxic leader!! Trying to maintain professionalism but this one.....when a CSM so jacked up like this, she was laughing her ass off during our rehearsal of my brothers ceremony after he was killed in Afghanistan, she f***ing yelled at me because I "took too long saying my goodbye " as I'm f***ing crying kneeling in front of it. This post will probably get me in trouble, and ruin the rest of my army career as well as my day and my army experience."
What would you do if you were there? What if you were on command?
What should the Army do about this?
(Thanks to Army MP WTF Moments and it's followers for the photos.)
**************UPDATE************************
The 8th Theater Sustainment Command CSM will be travelling to the 8th MP BDE to have some one on one time with this CSM. It is amazing as leaders will do when they are being called out. He should have done that a long time ago.
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CSM
Grooming Standards
CSM Grooming Standards
Edited 8 y ago
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 903
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Perhaps a conversation with her rater is in order. We cannot lead with example.
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MSG Clifton Stillwell
CSM(P) (Join to see) - SGM, she has been this way since at least 2006 2007 when I first met her in Iraq. Pretty sure she was the Operations SGM for the 92nd MP BN at the time, if my memory is correct. I remember our female soldiers asking how a SGM gets away with being a POS...
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CSM(P) (Join to see)
MSG Clifton Stillwell - MSG, I don't personally know the CSM, so I couldn't possibly speak to your question. There were others in the original thread that served with her and that was where a digital conversation was posted about her having one on one time with her CSM.
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MSG Clifton Stillwell
CSM(P) (Join to see) - I didn't ask a question, I made a statement. I never worked directly for her but because of certain positions I held I had to interact with her on a few occasions. I never knew her personally but was far from impressed with her appearance as a Senior NCO.
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I can't even wrap my head around this .Maybe the Army has different protocols , but in my time Marine Staff NCOs and especially Sergeants Major were held to the most rigid exemplars. The "Old man " would tear even the Battallion Sgt major a new one over less...
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CPL Wilfred Roberge
some people for some reason seem to "have their way" and "never get in trouble" while others get in trouble for much less
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Makes are SCARED to correct females. I see it all the time. Colored hair, fake nails, earrings in ACUs---they wait for a female to address the issue. Well, I tell my male Soliders when they be fucked yo, why can't male NCOs do their job too?
Whenever I see a chicks hair out of regs I get so upset, because THEIR LEADERSHIP is allowing it to happen. 670-1 isn't long. Read it. Abide by it. Enforce it. No more "I don't know female regs" excuse. It's bullshit.
Whenever I see a chicks hair out of regs I get so upset, because THEIR LEADERSHIP is allowing it to happen. 670-1 isn't long. Read it. Abide by it. Enforce it. No more "I don't know female regs" excuse. It's bullshit.
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1LT (Join to see)
I have to admit, I have accidentally forgotten to take out my earrings on more than one occasion and have always appreciated when my soldiers would point it out to me prior to seeing someone in my rating scheme, and helping me stay in regs.
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MAJ (Join to see)
^This. Doubly so if it's a minority female. There is a huge (and not totally unjustified) that the recipient of the correction will raise a stink about harassment and/or discrimination.
As an Infantry officer, I counted myself very lucky that when I did end up in charge of females, I had female SNCOs with high standards working for me, and a helpful female fellow officers who could clarify things when I had questions.
As an Infantry officer, I counted myself very lucky that when I did end up in charge of females, I had female SNCOs with high standards working for me, and a helpful female fellow officers who could clarify things when I had questions.
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PO1 Ben Johnson
I once watched a Command Master Chief (1980) tell a female, during a command inspection, that if she was going to wear that mustache it had better meet regs. She trimmed it! Was she ugly hell yeah. Was she able to use a "card" to seek revenge against the MCPO for his statement? No, she followed orders and complied with regs. The worst part of this whole story is that she was not stopped long ago. That is a leadership problem. But something only a few have keyed on-- If in fact she laughed at a memorial for a fallen troop-- she should have that mop shaved and thrown in the brig with no stripes on her uniform. Horrible. Her current CoC ( I refrain from using the term leaders) maybe should have her read all these posts out loud on some painted feet on a parade field of a boot camp in the rain!
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Hate to say it, but too many commanders and senior non-comms are too afraid to do the right thing when necessary today to members of the unofficial, protected classes. There are just too many cards that can be played today and it is human nature to avoid the turd sandwich when possible.
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MSG Dale Simpson
True story, still does not make it right but I have seen it before. I look forward to seeing this resolved as it should have been way before now.
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8th TSC will send someone, then a slap on the hand followed by about two months of fixed behavior, followed by repetitive nature of infractions, and the conspiracy to cover it up begins again. Here's the BLUF she has been like this for YEARS and it's an endless cycle. At the end she will retire, with 100% benefits regardless of AR 670-1 being a punitive article anyways, and she will have done what she wanted during 20+ years and still get away with it regardless. She is an attention seeker and that's what she is getting at this movement, so she's happy and there's nothing we can do about it. Just like her there many other people doing the same thing and it won't stop until senior people than them grow the internal fortune to say something. But hey, we can always dream that's going to happen right?
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SFC John Martin
MAJ (Join to see) - I sure hope not Sir. They are available to go to other BG or MG billets.
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MAJ (Join to see)
SFC John Martin - That was just the first MP-specific GO-level E9 slot I thought of. Maybe a Division or Corps HQ Provost Marshall SGM? Or I suppose a TSC/ESC, or some branch immaterial slot.
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MSG (Join to see)
Office of the Provost Marshal General, it's a MG billet in Washington. Oversees all MP, corrections and CID functions in The Army. That would be a good assignment for her. Lots of brass to keep her in check.
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SSG (Join to see)
Because she has now served in a Brigade billet she is eligible to be Regimental CSM now
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It is the responsibility of the BDE CDR to address those issues that I'm sure he or she was aware of as well as her next higher CSM. Unfortunately she has probably had those standards most of her career.
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CPT Russell Pitre
Now the CSM of her higher unit is on the way to have some one on one time with her. Now.
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SGM Joel Cook
Well said SFC Roberto Garza Jr. Well said, I have been thinking about what would have happened to me as a Caucasian, blonde haired, blue eyed SGM if I ever did this kind of crap. The answer "Investigation to substantiate the brow beating of juniors who corrected her, if justified relief for cause with substandard NCOER. Asked to retire at soonest opportunity. I have already seen two posts on here that she is on the warpath screaming Harressment. Next she will be looking for revenge on who posted this item.
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I am ex U.S. Army and this is clearly in violation of the UCMJ! The UCMJ governs the uniform and conduct standards of the U.S. Armed forces. Someone needs to call the I.G.'s office and inform them so that there can be a formal investigation into these allegations. In the Military, especially the Army everything must go through proper channels. In my honest opinion, IF these things are correct, then YES she needs to be reprimanded and reminded of the proper dress codes as well as codes of conduct for soldiers. That is why we have a UCMJ. Now it's not as serious as espionage or other such betrayal of our nation, however it is serious coming from someone in leadership roles over soldiers. Normally if a lower enlisted man or woman conducted themselves in this manner they would be warned, then a counseling session would ensue as well as a formal "write up." and then if the soldier refused the reprimand and did not comply, an Article 15 is issued and proper punishment is given. Article 15 provides for infractions that are not worthy of full legal actions such as any actual criminal activity. Article 15 is what they would use. Now coming from someone in a role of a command, I am not sure if it is different for them. The old saying goes though; "Lead by example."
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SSG (Join to see)
The UCMJ does not govern personal appearance or the wear of uniforms. Each branch has their own regulations. For the U.S. Army, it is AR670-1 "Wear and Appearance of Uniforms and Insignia". Every soldier, no matter rank or leadership role, has to follow that regulation. It's literally "By Order of the Secretary of the Army". The only ones it does not apply to, according to the order itself, is the Chief of Staff of the Army and to former Chiefs of Staff of the Army. Apparently, they can prescribe their own uniform.
Also, there are parts of the AR670-1 which are punitive which can result in adverse admin and/or charges under the UCMJ.
I took most of this info right from the signature page of the AR670-1.
Also, there are parts of the AR670-1 which are punitive which can result in adverse admin and/or charges under the UCMJ.
I took most of this info right from the signature page of the AR670-1.
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Isn't the SENIOR ENLISTED supposed to set the example of what TO do, rather then what NOT to do? Knock her down a rank, for Conduct Unbecoming.
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